StevenSiegel

This is meant to be informational, not politiical, which I believe is the purpose of this forum; the exchange of ideas. A few months ago I was speaking with a friend who supplies a large manufacturer with leather. I asked him his opinion about the "future" of our industry, in particular if we, as an industry would be impacted by the "green" movement. His comments were very emphatic in regard to this. His opinion, based upon being the primary leather vendor for a couple of decades to a mulit-billion dollar company was that all of the large manufacturers would be requiring certification of their leather by the LWG in the near future. I was rather surprised by his remarks. Here are a couple of industry links which if you follow them and take them to their links, etc....... Well, I wil let you be the judge. Here are two links. http://www.all-about-leather.co.uk/what-is-leather/the-eco-leather-story.htm http://blog.timberland.com/corporate-social-responsibility/green-stuff-we-love-low-impact-leather/# If the links do not work copy and paste into your browser

We ALSO offer the 2nd grade which is much cheaper. Regards, Steve

I like this I don't stamp or tool or I'd give this a shot

Hi Art, This is Steve Siegel. Thank you for the kind words. Our shipping policy has not changed. We still guarantee our leather with FREE RETURN FREIGHT. Any order shipped in USA (continental) which is over $75 is shipped FREE with occassional exceptions which we have had for many years. The two exceptions are: 1) From time to time we will offer merchandise on sale where freight is not included for that particluar item. 2) Every year we have our end of year special where we drop our prices substantially on many items, but we have different terms for THESE SALE ITEMS ONLY A ) In order to purchase any items from End of Year Sale, the total order (which can be a mixture of any of our items) must be $150. B ) There is a freight charge for the End of Year Sale items The sale with the terms can be viewed at: http://www.siegelofc...910/121410c.htm Please feel free to contact me should there be any question at siegel.leather@gmail.com or 800.862.8956

This is Steven Siegel, again. It is the AM. I sincerely apologize to the person that I wrote to for anything which indicated, hostility or anger. This is unprofessional and unwarranted. I hope that my apology is accepted.

Dear Sir, This is Steven Siegel. I do not hide behind another identity. When I am wrong I am man enough to admit it and rectify the situation. Maybe that is why you feel this is a one man shop as I have been very busy correcting errors and taking personal responsibility. HOWEVER, You have stated that you have purchased from us 3 times in the past year or so...... I have looked up your orders and found the following>>>>> THESE ARE ALL OF YOUR ORDERS 1) You purchase on 5/2/09 for $145.00 of Ellis Barnes Basic Tool Set (Was this in the past year or so??) The value of this item was approximately $400. It was sold at a loss to introduce leatherworkers to GOOD STAMPING TOOLS. This was Ellis's idea. You returned the entire set AT OUR EXPENSE and we replaced it. There was nothing wrong with the product, THIS IS BAD SERVICE? 2) On 5/26/09 you won a contest from us and you were given 25 dollars credit. I guess this is just part of BAD SERVICE 3) On 5/24/10 you purchased 2 sides of drum dyed louis vuittonleather at less than 1/2 of what this Billion dollar corporation pays for the SAME leather. You did not know how to use the leather because of your skill set. You returned the leather at OUR EXENSE. Is this bad service because you do not have the skill set to use better leather? 4) On 6/29/10 you purchased a few natural double shoulders. You kept this. I guess you know how to work with natural colored leather which is basically 'crust". Have you ever heard of Diogenes??? You won't find a company in this industry that is more straight than the one that you just slandered.

Hi, This is Steve Siegel. Having bought and sold this leather for over 40 years, I would like to the following. Water Buffalo has a very different fiber structure to cowhide in the respect that it is more "stringy" (this is not an industry term, it is hard for me to put into words the difference in the fibers.) We have been selling water buffalo for stirrup leathers for polo saddles for many years to the many of the 8-10 goal players world wide. It has superior strength to cowhide, but because of the fiber structure, it is more prone to stretch. Most polo players will NOT use anything other than water buffalo for stirrup leathers as it has superior strength. A typical pair of these leathers which are 1 1/4" x 60" in length with a buckle, a few holes, no additional finish work is very expensive; typically $140/pair at retail. The properties of the leather are a function of the tannage, tanner and raw stock. So, vegetable tanned bufflalo can be very nice or a piece of junk. We have vegetable tanned buffalo made by J&E Sedgwick which sells for approximately $20/ft. It is very different from the leather that is commonly offered in the market place which can be a couple of dollars/ft. That is not to say that the leather that costs a couple dollars/ft is inferior. It is different, that's all. Some of the other unique properties of water buffalo, other than it's unique grain pattern is that it has superior abrasion resistance over cowhide. Prices for this leather vary all over the place depending upon thickness and selection. I hope this is helpful Regards, Steven Siegel

Just some intellectual curiosity: You mentioned that you purchased leather which you described as a single bend, then described belly as being part of the leather. If these are single bends, there would be no belly. The bends would be approximately 20-26 inches in width. I am wondering if, perhaps, the leather is a single culatta, not a single bend? Thanks, Steve

Hi, Hi, Thank you for the encouragement. I don't understand the "rationale" of some of these threads. For someone who did not grow up in the email age, some of these threads just don't make any sense to me. It feels like having a horse depleted of water. You bring it water. The horse not only refuses to drink, but the animal turns on you for having brought it what it needs to stay alive. Can you help me in responding to some of these threads which close the minds of others to new ideas and "turns the clock backwards instead of forward?" My primary intent is to help others. My secondary intent is to add value. My third intent is to profit from my work after the first two. Anyway, I would like to put in a plug for the "Ask Veralane" archives which are on our website. For many years, while Verlane was alive, we employed her to answer any and all questions with no editorial restrictions. And, for those people that are interested in an eclectic of offers of free leather which we have recently developed, bargain pricing on leathers and reproductions from private edition tanning and hide manuals (from my private library), you may want to subscribe to our email specials. Now, that I am over 60, maybe I can have an "excuse" for being a bit ornery. Best Regards, Steve

Hi Bruce, I have a question for you regarding hides from your personal and family experience: I have a lot of experience in sorting leather made from hides world wide. Currently, many of the US heavy native steers will have weight run-off in the ribs, but this is not present in the Continental Breeds which come from Canada or the "Contintent". This is the reason that we will only use Continental Breeds in the production of our skiritng. My question is this: Besides feeding practices, do you believe that the "stock" that is currently raised is different than what was raised in earlier days? I would be very interested to know about this and I know that you would provide a thoughtful response. Best Regards, Steve

Hi Jim This is Steve Siegel. I am sorry that you had an unpleasant receipt of leather in the 1960's from someone who was trained in India to produce leather. By the mid 1960's the English had already and were continuing to make a fortune from the "cow" coming out of India. Eventually, the Indian government made export of this leather illegal. Some of the leather was referred to as EI Kips. I agree with you in some respect in terms of decomposition of the hide, but this is also a function of temperature and other factors. When the hide is tanned, it is very easy to see if the leather is suitalble for the intended use. If the vendor chooses to sell a product unsuitable for the intended use and the buyer accepts delivery of same product, then both the vendor and the buyer must share responsiblity for their mistake. I know all the "stories" about the cows that died by "accident" in India which were myths. I am just puzzled why this is such a touchy topic for many as the leather which we had produced already exists. I put a tremedous amount of effort to establish a "chain of custody", source hides which were still suitable for finished leather and present an opportuinty forall leatherworkers to add another "line" for customers who were not otherwise their current accounts AND for the leatherworker to make a GREATER profit for their timei invested than they would otherwise. The intent was to help the leatherworkers who I feel are grossly underpaid for the skill set which they possess. . My primary intent was to help y'all. In regard to the cattle industry in the USA, I can truthfully say that I have done 2 things to help this industry: 1) I was personally responsible for having all of the PETA posters which had been at the Dallas-Fort Worth Airport (which had been "up" for several years) removed AND 2) throuh the Secetary of Agriculture, directly had former President Clinton change his decision in favor of the cattle industry in regard to a pending BLM chanage. #1 was from speaking up ALOT and #2 was because our business was in Santa Ynez at the time and when I called the Department of Ag as a member of the cattlemen's association, they mixed me up with a guy who lived in town at the same time with the same name as mine who is a movie actor. I don't have any special magic, but I have tried my hardest to do what I thought was correct even if it seemed impossible.. Truthfully, I just feel so discouraged from this thread. It willl be interesting to see what the fellow in England who received a free side has to say about the leather.

Thanks for the comments.

This may sound "odd", but the meausrement of the substance of leather is not an exact science, just like many other properties of leather. Traditionally, there have been 2 different types of leather gauges used for measuring the thickness of leather: 1) Two flate plates which are brought to contact with the leather. The distance between the flat plat is displayed on a scale or dial. This was the common type of gauge employed. 2 ) Instead of the flat plates, used in the gauge above, two small iron balls are used. This type of gauge was used primarily in the sole leather industry. Believe it or not, the two gauges give different results as one is measuing the distance between the surface area of two plates and the other is measuring the distance at a single point. The second gauge typically gives a reading of approximately 2 oz heavier than the gauge used in the first example. Just a bit of "trivia" that I thought someone may find interesting. Regards, Steven Siegel

LONG LIVE COWBOYS!!

You might want to try Ohio Travel Bag in Ohio. 440.498.1955 These snaps were orginally called Durable Dot Snaps... You might try googling on this name for the mfr who can give you a current distributor. My thought would be to ask for a solid brass snap which is polished and lacquer coated. Good Luck Steve

I have always used Murphy's Oil Soap (available at most supermarkets) for cleaning tack. When the leather is moist, is a good time for conditiioning with fats. Regards, Steve

Here is a picture of the slaughter free side being sent to the UK. It is very hard to show the drag marks photographically. This particular hide has fewer defects than average. Steve

Hope this is helpful... In the production of these buckes, the stages generally are: 1) sand casting 2) tumbling (when the buckles were "sold" in this condition, it was generally referred to as a "rolled" buckle 3) hand-polishing 4) lacquer coating You can ask your vendor if the buckle is available "rolled" only. It should be much less expensive. If you need to remove the lacauer, I would try acetone. If you want to make the buckle look aged, then it would have to be tumbled afterwards, and allowed to air oxidize.... You are un-doing all of the processes for which you have already paid when you purchased the lacquered and highly polished buckles originally. Typically, these additional steps doubled the cost of the buckles. Happy Holidays, Steven Siegel

Hi Ray, Send me your address and I'll send you a hide for free to the UK and we'll pay the freight. The hides that are available to me can be tanned into virtually any leather which you can imagine, but they are all vegetable tanned (the tannage/fat liquors/finishing) can be modified for most any use (in the future) The leather in stock are 7/8 & 8/9 "strap sides".... let us know if you will be using the leather for flat goods or strap goods, so we can pick accordingly. Regards, Steve PS For those of you who subscribe to our email special, we frequently give away leather for free. We only ask for the person's honest opinion on the leather and perhaps a picture or two of the finished products. We offer MANY leathers which other suppliers do not offer, so this makes it easier for the public to "understand" the uses of these leathers.

Hi, This is really amazing I put the time into developing this product with the idea of assisting this industry. Let me address some questions: 1) These hides exist. They can either be converted to leather or go in the dump. 2) Abuse of animals to create "slaughter-free" hides is economically absurd as a hide does not even bring 5% of the value of the carcass. A live head of cattle sent to a slaughter house will always bring more money than an animal that has died in the field. The value is in the meat. 3) An international organization and a set or standards was established over a year ago for "eco" friendly leather. This was spearheaded by Timberland. It is only a short period of time before ALL major buyers of leather will be requred to meet these standards. Google on Timberland for their blog and google on the BLC For more information. In terms of pricining, GOOGLE on things like "organic" leather, "eco" leather, etc, search a little further and you will find your existing markets and pricing examples. 4) I live "across the street" from a 35,000 acre privately owned cattle ranch, small, by most Western US, Candian or Australian standards, Cattle die from lightning strikes, broken necks, other accidents, etc. Maybe Bruce can elaborate on this better than can I. I was always taught to be curious and to look at new ideas. I thought that is how people learn; by having an open mind and asking relevant questions. It just might be me, but I feel that the important questions are: Who//why can a maker sell a finished product made from this leather at a better profit margin. Is this leather suitable for the corresponding maker? Anyway, our end of year special can be viewed at : https://www.siegelofca.com/fridayspecial/112910/121410c.htm

NO Offense taken Thanks, Seve

I am sorry, but this question is too close to home. We have 15 head of horses, many of which we would give away for free, but cannot because the market is "so bad". All, except for 2 are American Thoroughbreds. We don't have children and our horses, honestly, are our family. In Kentucky, horses are being let loose to run wild in the National Forest. Many people talk about locking their gates at night, not for fear that someone will steal a horse, but that someone will leave a couple more in the pasture to be fed by someone else. From an "intellectual" standpoint, most of the horses in the US would not have hides suitable for leather production.

Hi, This is me again.... First, I am not making any value judgement. These hides exist. They can either go in the dump or they can be converted to leather. I have a unique method to track custodial records of the hides from the farm/ranch to the tanner. I also have the unique ability to supply hides which are suitable for conversion to many leather articles. I believe only animals which have died from "Mad Cow" are restricted from use of any part of their carcass. I won't argue with the fellow from Sweden. I have not done business in Sweden in a long time. Just out of curiosity , do you still raise Black & White Lowland Cattle in Scandia? In the district of Gothenburg and the whole of central Sweden, do you still raise Brown, and Brown & White Spottled Cattle? In Varmland, Dalucarlia and large parts of Norland do you still raise Dark Brown Hornless Cattle? As far as marketing value: with the examples of: $100- conventional leather product, $500- slaughter free, $70- synthetic .... there is marketing history to indicate that SOME people really would pay the $500. Just trying to offer something to the trade where an additional profit could be made by the maker, with the intent of helping the industry. I just believe so strongly that leather is grossly underpriced in value when compared to other commodities AND the leather worker is not generally rewarded for his efforts when compared to other industries. Best Regards, Steven Siegel

HI, This is Steve Siegel again. I have read the posts and would like to respond. I am not very good at communicating by this medium. Frequently, I am misunderstood. My intentions are only for the best for all, without any judgements. What is written below is not meant to offend or "preach" to anyone. If my words should appear this way to anyone, I apologize now as they are only meant to be informative and a source of exchanging information. 1) RE Photos of defects I would like very much to be able to shoot photos which accurately presented all defects in a piece of leather such as warbles, healed scars, and their concentration, loose grain, open grain, locations and concentrations, holes, locations, size, etc. Leather is a very unique product which can not be easily "graded" by a standardized system. This is a big problem for the multi billion dollar shoe industry. With all of the resources that they have available, they cannot standardize a "selection". Leather is a commodity which is tactile and visual; thus somewhat subjective. Over the years we have found that it is best to "grade" leather according to it's intended use. For example, the same leather which could be used for chaps, handbags or shoes would be graded differently for each of these applications. The chap maker would need to cut large, defect-free pattern pieces, with not much concern for tensile strength. The bag maker, cutting smaller patterns, could cut around an occasional defect without losing yield. The bootmaker who is cutting smaller patterns must be particularly concerned about the tensile strength of the leather so that it can be lasted, without the grain opening. If anyone can send me a couple of pictures that would represent what they would like to see on a web / email, please send them along to me at siegel.leather@gmail.com . I am always interested to learn something new. It would help me and others to learn how to communicate this more effectively to the public. (This is the reason that our company has always had a policy of free freight and free return freight to indicate that our intention is to pick leather as if, the customer was persoanlly picking the leather. No other leather company has this policy.) 2) Re: Defects of Slaughter Free Sides The drag marks are not throughout the hide. The price of $80 / side is ridiculously inexpensive. The leather is tanned in the USA. It is a typical "strap" leather tannage at full substance, meaning that it will be better than leather that has been split from "skirting" leather to produce the same substance. 3) Re: Politics of This Stufft People are people. Everyone has a different opinion. The concept was to offer a product which would allow our customers to make an additional profit that they could not make otherwise. Even the organization, PETA, which had been investigated for it's involvement as a domestic terrorist organization and is opposed to leather, would probably endorse this product. I believe this because the figurehead of PETA has put in her will that she would like her skin, after she dies to be converted to leather. I used to travel worldwide frequently. In the heart of our country, at the Dallas-Fort Worth Airport, during our previous President's tenure, I noticed PETA ads throughout the airport as public service announcements., provided free of charge by the people of Texas. They had been up for 4 years at the time that I noticed them and had a discussion with Texas law enforcement. . They were permanently removed within 1 week.. The point is, even in the most unlikely of places, there is a "movement" about that has this concept about leather 4) Re: Why Slaughter-Free? If the hides are not converted to a useable product, they would, otherwise be disposed of to decay back to dust... This is re-cyled without the "carbon footprint" cost which many re-cylcled products require. In regard to decomposition: a) It's a function of temperature and time. All of the leather which we sell would have the tensile strength necessary for the intended use.