StevenSiegel

Hi, This is Steven Siegel. These are interesting comments. The intent, believe it or not, was to help our industry. As a commodity, leather is grossly underpriced and the people who work in the industry as makers are generally not equitably rewarded for their knowledge and labor as compared to other industries. Just ask most custom saddle makers how many hours they put into learning their trade, the hours necessary to produce a saddle and the dollars received for a finished product. As far as proof of origin, this part was easy as, if the product was "successful" a chain of custody letter could have been supplied for EVERY side, from the original ranch, to the intermediary, to the tanner. Any particular questions would be appreciated.

Hi, Just came across this post. Our terms for the END of Year SPECIAL merchandise are different than our terms for other merchandise End of Year Special Items: Total Purchase Minimum is $150.... see the link for complete information or contact me at s.siegel@siegelofca.com for any further clarifications Other Items: Minimum purchase $75 to receive FREE US freight.. I don't know where the requirement of a 6 side minimum arose. The Slaughter Free Sides, from the market research that was done, would have allowed finished goods to be priced at 3-10 TIMES the price for other leather goods, BUT ONLY WHEN MARKETED AND SOLD TO "NON-LEATHER" PEOPLE... I thought that this would be a great opportunity for someone and put a lot of work into making this "happen"..... Would sure appreciate some comments

When you say latigo, it opens up a whole can of possibilities. It could be chrome tanned only, it could be chrome & vegetable retanned, it could be vegetable tanned only, it could be alum tanned and then there are still more variations of tannages. After figuring out what is the tannage, then there is the question of how much oil/fats have been added to the leather. So, some "latigos" will take an impression just fine, some will not. If the leather has a lot of vegetable "character" to it without much fat content, it should stamp fine. It's probably frustrating to you as a user of leather as it is to a vendor of leather that the "proper" terminology is very often not used when descirbing leather. It's as if we are back in Biblical days and building the Tower of Babel. Regards, Steven Siegel, CEO Siegel of California, Inc

The picture would be banned!!! But, that's me on the horse. I notice your interest in rawhide. It reminds me of the time a friend made some rawhide underwear as a gag gift for the holidays many years ago.

I wish it would still fit!!! BTW Does anyone have any contact with Benjamin Maleson? He wrote a book about leatherworking years ago. Maybe Joe Barth doe if he is around here.

(a little sarcastic humor)... so, this would mean leather that comes from cows, sheep, goats as they are all vegetarians???

Hi, In moving our warehouse to our new location, I came across my first leather project pictured above. My teacher was Benjamin Maleson. This was made from cowhide, hand stained. It was made in approximately 1969. Critiques? Comments??? Best, Steven Siegel

Hi, I also appreciate the civility of the differences of opinion. I think that both of our intentions are to be informative. Best Regards, Steven Siegel

I will post a response within the next couple of days. I do not know a chemical by the name of vinergaroon. I would like to research this and give you the best answer for which I am capable. Best Regards, Steve

This is interesting. Perhaps we are talking about different characteristics when comparing horse to cowhide. When I speak about vegetable tanned horse being superior to vegetable tanned cowhide (no matter what vegetable tanning agents are used), the differences are the following: horse will stand more flexing than cowhide before the fibers start to loosen (this means a difference in retention of shape) horse has superior abrasion resistance to cowhide Perhaps there are different characteristics that you are referring to so we are respecfully disagreeing about different issues. If someone can tell me how to send a picture of a 20 year old horsehide holster, I'll post it along side a cowhide holster made for a different pistol but in the same time frame. The horsehide holster was made for a handgun produced for only a few years in the early 80's. It is similar to a CZ75, but was constructed to handle 41AE ammo, re-chambered for 40 S&W cartridges...the cowhide holster was made for a Ruger Single Six. We live on a ranch and need to carry "something" . They are abused and exposed to the elements, dust, brush, etc, etc When we started selling vegetable tanned horsehide almost 50 years ago, we sold it for belts almost exclusively. What we noticed was that over time a belt made from vegetable tanned horsehide would not sag where the belt contacts the back, where cowhide would, no matter where it was tanned. As far as the question about the alcohol; I took your remarks to mean that one would "swipe" the grain with alcohol. As far as alcohol based dyes damaging leather, could I ask you to just think about the "precautions" that need to be taken to prevent leather from cracking when trying to dye a strap BLACK that is going to be flexed? Anyway, I hope that I have expressed myself as to educate and share information. And, I love these kinds of discussions and questions. So, if you still disagree, I'm happy to continue the discussion. Best Regards, Steve ps ... regarding leather losing oils when it is formed with water.... If my jeans (not made from leather, though I did make a pair for myself about 40 years ago) are washed in the washing machine and hung dry they are stiff. When they are flexed, they soften. ... Comments????

I respectfully disagree. I have carried holsters made from both materials. There is no comparison in the longevity of one over the other. We have sold vegetable tanned horsehide for over 40 years. My uncle, Jacob Siegel, trained 100's of craftsmen in its use. The fibers of horse are completely different from cow. It will have superior stand-up. Whichever material you choose to use is up to you. (I wish there was a school to teach this type of stuff in the States and people did not have to rely on vendors, myself included, for information on materials not so much that I am concerned about competitiion, it is just that I am concerned that people are making informed decisions.) I hope that this is not too harsh... my email skills are not the greatest. I only write this to be helpful. Very important: DO NOT USE (ANY SIGNIFICANT QTY OF) ALCOHOL ON LEATHER. YOU WILL RUIN IT AS IT WILL EXTRACT FATS FROM THE LEATHER WHICH HAVE BEEN PUT INTO THE LEATHER TO PRESERVE IT. Another suggestion for vegetable tanned leather would be a 3-5% solution of borax for preparation.

Hi, Can you explain the type of article that you are trying to create? For example is it an aviator's jacket? Or, does it go back to a previous century for another application? I'll try to help you. If your contract requires historical accuracy, please be careful as there are no established standards in our industry any longer. We have supplied leather for the Smithsonian, Library of Congress, etc, etc. I believe that the "forum" rules request that I respond on the forum, otherwise I would ask you to email me directly so you could have a more prompt response. I check the forum usually once /day. Regards, Steven Siegel

'' My experience: have a custom made shoulder holster made for a handgun fo which Kramer did not have a mold. There is no comparison in stand up between the horse and cow for longevity. . The holster makers that have been doing this for years seem to prefer the hard rolled horse butts. it's about 15 years old and has not been taken care of .... but you would be surprised how nice it looks and most importantly how well it has held its shape. the gun was only made for a few years... it's a knock off of a CZ75, produced to handle 41AE ammo, but re-chambered for 40S&W which gives it some very nice properties... I'll see if I can post a picture later if anyone is interested. Steve

why do you want garment horse? it;s no problem to obtain

In regard to mold on hides... this is what I was taught... if it is MINOR, it can be cleaned & disinfected.... if not, get the leather out of your possession as quickly as possibe (get rid of it, it will ruin any ofher leather in the area).... it will spread to other leathers... the mold will eat the fibers to where there is no strength... it is more contagious than the flu in a classroom full of kindergarten children.... Regards, Steve PS How did you store the leather??? Is it vegetable or chrome??? How long has it been stored??? WHAT COLOR IS THE MOLD????

Hi Rick, The time comes from positive comments such as yours. Thanks so much. Best Regards, Steve

The skirting which we are offering is the "generic" golden color. We have had very good responses on the oiling. As you are not getting the desired color when oiling, do you mind telling me what type of oils you are using? I could contact some of our existing accounts and get some feedback which I will be happy to share privately or publicly. Or, if you wish, contact me directly off line at siegel.leather@gmail.com

Did you read my post on the forum "A skirting story"? If you are looking for natural vegetable tanned leathers that are 5/6, 7/8, 8/9, 9/10, 10/1 2 or 12/14, I am pretty sure our leather is a better value and better leather. Maybe we should discuss this off-line or give me a call at 800.862.8956. - Steve

If you'll buy 4 hides of anything from us, and you're willing to pay $86 for freight, the leather won't be wrapped in Kevlar, but I'll make sure they are delivered by some beautiful women (hope I don't get into trouble for this!)

We compete with Weaver in some categories so I don't know if it's cool to make any comments. But, at the risk of going to Gehenom just want to add the following: 1) we all get discounts from UPS of typically 20% or more, so looking up the :"back shipping" is still going to give you an understated value 2) our company provide free freight for any orders over 75 usd in the USA and we will pick up for FREE if you don't want the merchandise. we are the only company that offers the guarantee free return freight policy 3) to be fair to other suppliers I believe there are others providing free freight. don't know their minimums, I've always known the people at Weaver's to be very honorable in the past. Best of Luck Steven Siegel, CEO siegel.leather@gmail.com www.siegelofca.com

A Skirting Story (This story was originally written about 1 year ago. It is about the engineering of a NEW leather. If you cannot cut 1 saddle from 2 sides, then you have received the wrong leather by accident. Sides are typically 23-31 ft/each WITH NO RUNOFF in the shoulder. You won't believe it unless you see it. We have been meddling with formulations on the re-tannages as we have received customer feedback. We have had customers call us who were paying $95/side for what they thought was a very good grade of skirting and told us that not only is this better, but it is MORE ECONOMICAL) Siegel of California-110 Easy St- PO Box 1700- Buellton, CA 93427 USA 800.862.8956 or 805.686.2700 www.siegelofca.com (not currently on web site until Kate & I get it done!!) siegel.leather@gmail.com I take pride in improving on available leathers to the trade drawing on a lifetime in this business and the mentoring from my dad, my uncle and my grandfather who was the founder of our company. Directing a tanner to modify their tannage for a new product not otherwise available which helps our industry is much more satisfying than finding a way to squeeze an extra profit from our customers. In addition to our regular trade, we have some high profile clientele such as the NYPD mounted police department, the US military, some of the best polo players in the world, the tack for the winners of a dozen Kentucky Derbys, high end boots made in Argentina for clients such as HRH Prince Charles, bookbinding leathers for The Library of Congress, Harvard, Stanford, etc. A month ago I was hired as an expert witness in leather for a case on the East Coast. All of these are so fulfilling to me as well as the customers who call and are happy with the product and/or service which they receive from our company. Because of my business philosophy, we do something which no one else in this industry offers: free freight on orders over $75 and free pickup on leather which doesn't meet the customer's expectations (some minor, reasonable, requirements of course....like don't cut up the leather and ask for a return...or let us know within 15 days AFTER your receipt). The reason that we do this is because leather is so difficult to describe in words or pictures that we want you to know that we are trying to act as your eyes to give you the leather that you expect, not the leather that we want to get rid of. Most importantly, I wanted to share with you the "story of our new USA skirting:". We used to offer skirting from Westfield Tanning until they went out of business. The leather was very well received by our customers and was even used by West Brothers in the production of a custom made saddle for one of our Presidents. I started working with a tanner in Argentina who was purchasing North American steers to produce a Golden type skirting. The first couple of shipments were very nice so we increased our orders substantially. Unfortunately, the leather which arrived in the next few orders was much too soft and we made a claim with the tanner. The skirting, though being 12/14 oz, when put grain side up on a table and folded with the backbone towards the belly would just lay in place like a limp rag. (The skirting should snap back and not be able to stay in this position.) The US agent who came to inspect the leather found nothing wrong with the leather and we were stuck with a financial loss. However, we decided to try to work with the tanner on future production as our earlier shipments indicated good potential. As a result, I made a trip to Argentina every 6 weeks to inspect all leather coming to us, about 2000 sides each visit. I took notice of which North American hide sources resulted in the best production of skirting. The hides from a broker in Canada produced by far the nicest skirting. They had a nicer grain and very interestingly to me, they did not run off in weight around the rib cages (this is a difficult defect to readily detect) These visits lasted for a little over a year. Our customers were very happy with the leather. After about a year, my visits stopped. The tanner forbade me from pre-inspecting our leather after I received a shipment which was not the leather that I inspected and I made a complaint. For the last couple of years we have been purchasing our leather elsewhere and I am concerned about the lack of consistency in the leather which we have been receiving. Sometimes it's great and sometimes there are too many butcher cuts and/or other defects. It's difficult for us to give all of our customers the leather which they need. A couple of months ago I approached the hide broker in Canada, who owns a US tannery, to see if we could have a skirting made to our requirements which is very different from the company's current production of skirting. The first two sample shipments sold out very quickly and we have just received our third shipment. I have called most of the saddle makers who have purchased the skirting and so far we have an excellent response. I have been writing about this for weeks. The leather is made by agreement for Siegel of California, Inc only by Wickett and Craig. We are using only their top selection of hides. As we become aware of problems, they will be rectified whether in tannage or hide selection. The price is 169.95/each. I hope that if you are a custom saddle maker you will give this a try. Not only do we hope to be able to give you better value for your money due to excellent cutting yield, but we hope that you will come to be able to depend on the product always being consistent... for example no hard spots . Hope to hear from you soon with a trial order. Of course, your satisfaction is guaranteed Regards, Steven Siegel, CEO Siegel of California, Inc 800.862.8956 or 805.686.2700 West Brother Saddle made for the President with our previous skirting. Gauged at Center of Side.... It is incredibly difficult to find leather with this consistency from other sources

Thank you. From your post, I am assuming the item is no longer around, so a picture could not be posted? Horse will last much longer than cowhide. Do you have any idea if it was chrome tanned or vegetable tanned??? I have seen and inspected 100's of millions of square feet of leather throughout the world. I never seen genuine mulehide. This industry does not have a good repository for standardization and classifications/descriptions I can help you with genuine horse, vegetable tanned in either "horse strips" (the trimmings around the shell) or the genuine shell cordovans. Hope this is somewhat helpful. If I can assist in any other manner, please either post on the forum or contact me via email. (The forum would be preferred as the information would become public and available for everyone.) Out of curiousity, can I ask for the source that claims Mule Hide is a bit tougher than Horsehide? (Unless it's from the BLC in England or the College in Northampton, personally, I would be questionable of its accuracy)

Hi Donna, I have a different "take" on the matter. (It's my trademark about everything) The economy is MUCH worse than is being publicized. My guess is that the accountant is very much aware of this because of all of the financial statements that he sees from your neighbors, friends, etc. I would think the "kiss on the head" could mean that he has found someone who is succeeding where so many others are failing and the action was meant as kindness & hope. Just another opinion. .... PS Congratulations on your success. The "funny" thing about the leather business is that as far back as I know (going back to my grandfather's days), the leather business is economically counter cyclical. The leather business actually gets better in hard times.