Shelly

Thanks, Keith!! You are so much more eloquent on the soap box than I am! One other thing I think I wanted to say here - there are plenty of 'Factory' saddles being made that are actually made on an assembly line, no one person is making them (one person laying out, cutting out parts, hand fitting, tooling, stamping, etc) - and they all have 'Custom Made', 'Hand Made', etc, giving the customer buying these cheaper factory saddles the impression that these are high quality, custom saddles...not the case! (I've visited shops such as these, and predicted exactly what we'd see, before we ever got inside - one was just what I'm talking about, and the customer was having the 3rd remake of this saddle done for her mare - I went with her and the mare the 3rd time, and she was floored by it - one person, possibly two, could speak fluent English) I've found that a few common things to look for when looking at these lesser priced saddles is: sheepskin will not be 'real', but that woven, fake stuff, (lets face it - a real good, 1" thick vegtan woolskin is expensive, so this is one of the first places to cut cost), and they will sometimes use a cardboard type of stiffener for the skirts, in place of skirting leather...then, edges are usually dyed to hide the fact that no time is spent at all on sanding, edging, and rubbing the edges to a glossy finish - something I and any good saddlemaker worth a flip will do, regardless if we dye the edge or not! Then, take a look at the cantle binder - did they put in great big pop stitches? Well, that is another area that screams 'factory'...see how long it takes to stitch no more than 6 stitches per inch, no pop stitches, and get the stitches to come out on the underside of the cantle in a nice even spacing - these are just a few of the things that add up in time, talent, etc - yet another corner cutting feature is really long machine stitches on the skirts, etc - it should be pretty much the same thruout - mine are 6 stitches per inch - all saddles, regardless of it being a base price job or a fancier one...I did try to increase the stitching to 7 or 8 once, and I found it to be a little dicey, in that the thicker the leather used, the needle and awl on the machine can cause it to 'zipper', so there is a point that it doesn't make sense to go to...my point is, when I have a customer that asks me what makes my saddles worth the base price, I point out these most obvious things, and then can show them some things that aren't so obvious - the things in the designing of the saddle that are sometimes based on traditional elements, and some that are driven by 'style' in the current show ring, in the disciplines that the rider shows in...beautiful lines on a saddle, whether in the design element, or the tooling, etc, will encourage your eye to flow around the saddle...one reason I am not a fan of the oak leaf in it's traditional sense here in Texas, is that it's a 'crash pattern', no real flow to it, as in other floral patterns. And, just so I don't get someone upset here - not all great saddlemakers are wonderful at carving - but they have a great eye for design, flow, etc, and do an exceptional job building a saddle of really great quality! I would rather see an exceptional set stamp saddle, or a plain one, (which is really hard by the way, to do 'cleanly'), than one with really terrible carving/tooling....(seen my share of them too)... Maybe a few of the other guys here, Keith included, could also chime in here with a few other points to make when trying to see the differences?? Seems to me that many of the people here that need to learn a little more about what constitutes a high quality of work when it comes to hand made saddles might appreciate a bigger 'laundry list' than what I've listed... And, so no one thinks I'm a 'miss know-it-all' - I think we must strive to learn something new, ongoing, all the time, to refine, improve, etc. I give it up to those guys that do such beautiful work on their saddles, etc, and can also do a fine job making their own engraved silver! I braid, and with all of the other things I do in my life, even tho silver work is intriguing, it's probably not something I'm going to put on my plate in the near future....but, someday??!! Guess what? Most large companies or corporations pay for their employees to do recurrent training, renew licenses, etc, etc, as well as nice benefit packages, in lots of cases. We have to also figure in our health care, any 'paid vacation' time, etc...sure does make my base price sound like it's still not enough...probably isn't!

Just had to throw my 2 cents in here - My base price is $3300 - this gets you a rough out or slick out saddle, ready to ride. I am in total agreement with the analogy made about the different carmakers - same thing probably applies here. I think you can think of Keith's work, as well as the saddlemakers that are in the Traditional Cowboy Arts Assn, and the makers in that league, as the Ferrari's of our world, in that, while you can purchase an entry level product from each one, if money isn't an object, you can just about get anything you want done to it, within reason. (I know from personal experience that some requests are just not going to be done, for various reasons, just because you could 'afford' it, doesn't mean you should do it!)... Anyway, I think most of the people that are wanting to buy a high end, custom saddle, for a Walmart price, don't put a lot of consideration into the whys of the pricing they see. When I consider that I now have at least $900 invested in a quality tree, leather, hardware, etc, and then have to consider the overhead for the shop, machinery costs/maintenance (part of the overhead), figuring in a salary, etc, and the fact that none of us want to be in business without at least a small glimmer of hope for making a profit in business, I'm a little disturbed by the comment I read about 'let's show these guys that a saddle can be made for $1500.00', etc - you get what you pay for in most cases. If anything is made by hand, with a high level of competency, why is it so hard for anyone to figure out that you aren't buying something that is being 'mass produced'? It also behooves the buyer to invest some time to learn about the differences in the quality of the work they are buying. I know of one exceptional saddlemaker that is no longer in the business, because he could not make a living, and became bitter about trying to justify his level of competency to a public that could not and would not understand the difference. He used to say that the years he spent learning the trade would have been better spent doing something else, because he feels he wasted those years, even tho it was on something he totally enjoyed doing, for himself, the horses his saddles were ridden with, and the people that knew the difference. Incidentally, his base price was $4000 when he left the business... This said, I think, one reason I am still in this business is because of the area I am in, the fact that my clientelle seeks me out because they feel I do a quality job for what they pay, and they feel that I know and understand what they need - they are in the performance horse industry, and are comfortable that I know what they want in regards to form to function - I understand the terminology, training aspects, etc. I am always trying to do better for my customers, as well as for myself, and I think I will always be learning, refining, and trying to get not only to do right by the horse, but also my customer and myself. Anyway, time to get off the soapbox, and back to work....

You aren't alone here - this guy also used one of my saddle images on Ebay, and claimed it was one of his saddles. One of my friends was searching for a used saddle on ebay for a customer of his, and found it, called me right away, as he knew the work...I turned the guy in, so it's interesting that, even tho Ebay claims to prosecute to the fullest, that he keeps doing this, and he is still allowed to sell on their site, using the same name he did when he used my pix to misrepresent his work!

I use Hermann Oak primarily - but, I currently have four sides of Wickett/Craig, that I will be using soon. I use 14/16 oz HO, and have it buffed. I used to use the next lighter sides from HO, but found they would be rather shallow, and the weight dropped off significantly pretty quick - going to the heavier sides has made a lot of difference, in that the hides are bigger, and allows me to actually have some fudge room, as well as the ability to cut good repair parts from what I have left. Since I have a band knife, I can take the small stuff I click out, such as spur straps - leave them heavy, or take them down so I can line and stitch them, for a 'dressier' style of strap. I've found the heavier hides have been more consistent for cutting lately - I've heard they've been working on that, so don't know if it's one or the other...better formulation, or just the heavier hides are always more consistent...

Cool - what are the steps, and the program you used? I'm getting ready to do some floral from a photo, so this would be a good tool!

Hi, I would if I were braiding up a bosal - I am in the middle of three saddles, and have 4 pair of shotgun chaps w/floral tops to do, before I can even think about starting on one...I'll do a series of pix when I get time to braid one up... Sorry, Shelly

I tie the core together below where the heel knot is to be, and above it - I separate the strings on the core bodies into groups of 4, then start my crown knot with them. Once the crown knot is done, (depending on if I used 12 or 16 when I plaited it, there will be either 6 groups of 4, or 8 groups of 4 to be crowned). I will then go back thru and make sure it is tight thruout. Then, by making sure the core ends were together evenly, side by side, as opposed to one end laying over the other, etc, I will half hitch a string at a time below the crown knot to contain all of the core strings against the core bodies - which will give more stability to them within the finished groundwork. Just be sure the core bodies are trimmed off to whatever length you want from the top of the crown knot to the bottom - this is all to be inside the groundwork of the heel knot. The reason I trim off the core strings after I half hitch to the bottom of the core bodies is to allow only no more than 8 - 10 strands coming out the bottom of the heel knot. By tying these strands together, centered below the knot, and trimming off the rest, you will be able to braid the final heel knot around the foudation, with these strings helping to keep it centered at the bottom, as well as giving your final knot something to tighten around. I braid my heel knots from the bottom, up over the swell of the knot (towards the nose button), then back down, working right to left around the knot (I am left handed...don't know if this is 'different' than right handed braiders do). I always build a foundation knot of 8 bights, then, after finishing the first pass with the same string as the basic foundation, (this is the 'over 1/under1, then building/splitting pairs to O2/U2), I will add my color, etc from there - I've sometimes had 6 or more passes to create the design I want in the end. I would recommend Gail Hought's books, if you don't have them. Very good reference/referral material, and easier for someone to learn from than the Bruce Grant books...hope I've been more helpful...! The only things I differ from her books in my approach is that I like braided cores, rather than twisted, but I do make both types, depending on what I want in the end for the bosal to feel like, and have also done braided with a twisted core over it - and, I do the crown knot with all body strings, rather than the way she does it in her books, as I believe this makes the bosal stronger, and less likely to loosen within the heel knot and have the cores twist on each other after years of use. I did a repair on a well made bosal once, (horse had been tied up to a fence with it on, and rubbed a hole in the strings of the nose button because he was sweaty and itchy - the owners of the bosal tried to 'fix' with superglue - don't ever do that! Made the repair more extensive, as the glue ruins the strings) - the heel knot was twisted, and the cores were obviously not in line with each other - and it was such that I could move the heel knot by hand, and see/feel the cores not secure. I told the owners about this, but they opted to hang it on the wall after the repair work, rather than risk it popping off or any further damage to it. I know the braider of the bosal mentioned, and felt like my method was more secure than this was, as it was done as you have discussed, with the body strings moused around a ring knot and back down the core bodies...crowning with all body strings binds the two core ends together tightly, rather than having a 'tight' ring knot that the strings are looped around and down - even if you go around mulitple times, the more you go around, with all strings, the more you are loosening the ring knot, or stretching, as you have to use a fid to help each strand in this part...in the end, it made more sense to me to do it the way I do now. Other braiders may not agree, and have alternative ways - I would be happy to hear from any others out there that read about this, as I'm sure there are more than just a couple ways to approach this...

I've tried it both ways - after trying the ring knot deal, I settled on a turkshead instead. I split my bosal body strings equally, no more than 4 strings per section. Then I crown them,in these sections, so they come out the bottom of the knot. I will then trim the ends of the core off where I want it, half hitch a different string down the length of the core ends to the cut ends, then will tie about eight of the strings together at the bottom, trim off the rest. All that is left is to mouse this up with whatever you like to use, to get the shape of the foundation that you want in the final heel knot. I've found, over the years, and with using the bosals I've made, as well as seeing others I've sold that are still being used, 20+ years later, that this way keeps the body from twisting inside the heel knot. I've seen some that were secured by a piece of leather or rawhide between the branches of the body, at the top of the heel knot, but, because I've never taken one like that apart, can only assume that the spacer is there to give the mecate a place to be without being pinched so bad. I don't think I've ever seen spacers in any of Ortega's bosals, and he's the one I hear everyone refer to when talking about any true authority on bosals - form to function, etc. Hope this helps...

Really pretty work, Bob - did you turn the edge under when you added the fringe, and then double stitch?

So I assume you haven't had any spots develop on the rawhide from using it in the humidor? Good post, by the way, always like to see how others do their rawhide - never know when a different approach can help your own! SL

Is that stainless steel mesh? Do you have to deal with iron oxide spots on the string? Anytime rawhide or leather that is damp comes into contact with metal, it turns black wherever the contact is...

Ken, Do you have a website? Additional pix?? I use buckle sets for my braided headstalls, carved headstalls, etc, and sometimes have requests for personalized pieces. Also conchos, cornerplates, etc, for the saddles...I'd like to see more... Thanks!

I just viewed part of the website for Mr. Francolini - I'm absolutely awestruck!! I can see why you like to look at his work for inspiration! I've already added his site to my Favorites list!!

Really gorgeous work, as always, Bob! Are you using Wickett for your leather?? I thought it might be, with the way it's colored up, I assume you already have a coat of oil on it? Will you be carving or stamping the back of the organizer??

Hi Thanks - my method - On skirts, I edge the bottom with a #4 edger, the top with a #3 edger, then sand the edges with a rotary table sander - this one has large round sanding bands, and they oscillate up and down, while spinning. Once the edges are sanded, I will wet the edge with a dilluted tragacanth solution, and rub with doubled/stitched canvas rub rag - rub until you feel it heat up, and the edge starts to get glassy and shiney looking. I redo any areas that look like it's needed. If you don't want to use tragacanth, you can wet with warm water, and use a block of glycerin saddle soap, rub the edges with the soap, then the rag, and the same deal, wait for the heat, and darker, shiney look. You may be sore after an extended session of rubbing edges...! I never mind helping anyone that wants to come hang out at my shop - I usually put them to work - rubbing edges! (and sweeping the floor!)

I assume you've visited or driven thru the 'great big town of Mineral Wells!' My shop is just 4 miles North of town, on Hwy 281 - Chris Cox's place is 4 miles further North, on the East side of 281, we are on the West side...we have 80 acres here, a horse training operation, and my saddleshop is located at the end of our indoor arena, just as you come in the gate off the highway...doors open, ya'll are welcome to visit if in the area!

I've never tried the blue painters tape...have used the 3" wide clear package tape, but I hate it, just because it wants to roll up on the edges and stick to the sides, making it hard to take off later...I suppose it can all be a pain of one sort or another...just depends on which thing you dislike the most...!

Thanks Steve, I value your opinion - as well as the rest of you that make a living building saddles - question: I've thought that if I fit the backhousings as if it were a RO/SO, and attach to a backing such as heavy illustration board, then stamp...might this stop the excess stretch and therefore make it fit afterward, as I had it fit originally?? My worry about this would be the tacky stuff on the back of the leather...?

Here are a few pix of a reining saddle I made for myself -8" BW fork, 3" oval cantle, 16" finished seat...Just a border/basket (basket has my brand in center), Inlaid seat with kangaroo buckstitching, simple fork cover with pinking, and a Twist/Wrap on the fenders...I dyed the edges also, but don't usually...always seem to 'slip' with the darn applicator at least once - in a place that you can't ignore!! I try to trim 1/4" extra of the corner of my rear jockeys when I plan to fully stamp with basket, etc - usually, the full stamping stretches the leather just enough for it to be even with the skirt line - this one is even on the right, but the left side didn't stretch as it should have...hence, the line isn't exactly even - had to decide if I wanted it tight, or a little off...I choose tight...not really 'happy' with it, but, rides good, so I suppose I can live with it...and do better on the next one!

Ihave a 1/2" arbor on this motor...have you used this one enough to know if it will burnish the edges pretty slick, or will I have to 'work on it' before it will do that?? If it will need to be worked over, I think I'd rather pay for one with the tighter grain wood, so I can just go to using it right away...?

I got tired of having my bleeder slip, and, even when being careful, I'd sometimes get myself 'bled' in the process - found a 3/8" end cutter, then modified it on my grinder, so the width of the cut is the same as the width of the string I'm using. I will then make a horizontal nip in the string, always make the first cut on the top and pull the bottom string up thru the hole, (I use a spike to open it up some), then the next cut on the 'top' again, which was the bottom at first, and repeat the steps for as many times as needed. I use this on bosal hangers, saddle strings,etc. Only do two on the saddles, and I vary it on the hangers, depending on how I want it to look. I will 'set' it with a few taps of a round faced hammer. You need to snug the strings each time they come thru the hole...try to keep the same consistency thru it.

This is really nice - I like the type of wood, also - any chance I can get you to make one like it for my slicker set up? I have some pretty deep grooves already in the burnisher that I purchased to try, on Ebay...normally, I use elbow grease, water/gum cut 50/50, or bar saddle soap, rubbed over web edge...more elbow grease...I'd like to try this instead - don't think it would collapse like the one I currently have!

My computer is in the shop, so I use it to stream oldies rock, pop, and classic country, depending on the mood. Sometimes just background, and quieter, but, when I decide to play the Eagles, EW&F, etc, from My Music, it's usually cranked up! Have thought about audio books quite a bit, just haven't taken time to check on that...!

HMMM -No, don't think I've ever considered rotary knives 'girlie'....but then, I is one...!