Lobo

Folks, I would appreciate a little clarification on the last few posts. I'm not clear on what is being implied. Just who is being accused of presenting others' work as their own? Thanks in advance for further enlightenment.

Jared: Boomstick commented about making his dummy guns (for sale) using molds and polymers, adding that it appears to be a proprietary process (Ring's paying royalties to ASP, etc). Then a couple of others commented that worrying about an infringement was a joke. My comment was cautionary; if the process is proprietary and someone uses it for profit, there could be rather serious legal consequences. If you wish to make your own dummy guns for your own use, I can't see any problems. This would require having the gun to cast a mold from, then casting the dummy from that mold; all well and good. Then you make a second casting and sell that to someone, you might just run into legal problems. I apologize for any confusion.

Jared: I suggest the use of lighter weight leather to minimize bulk. I realize that we are only talking about small fractions of an inch, but I think the thinner the package is the more comfortable is is to have in the pocket. I suggest the rough side out to take advantage of the rough surface to hold the holster in place (we don't want it to be sliding, moving, or rolling around in the pocket; and we want the holster to stay in the pocket when the handgun is drawn). 4-oz. veg-tanned cowhide is about 1/16" thickness, which is pretty thin, but after wet-molding it is surprisingly rigid. Sealed with acrylic, it should remain that way for a long time.

We all seem to have some tendency to make what we like. This is fine when one is doing the work as a hobby or sideline enterprise. I have posted a couple of times regarding the Tom Threepersons-style holster, and my project to recreate (first) the original design, and (second) the original carving pattern. This holster style bears little resemblance to holster designs most popular in recent years, so one might think that demand would be minimal. On the contrary, I am now receiving at least a half-dozen inquiries every week, and I'm now making at least 3 of these each week. I am about to send out at least five cut holster patterns for hand-carving to fill orders. It seems that there is quite a healthy interest in this fine example of early 20th Century design! This project has resulted in approx. 15% increase in order volume and, since it is a relatively expensive piece, sales volume has increased even more than that. I also added a holster design for field and hunting use, at the request of a customer for a full-flap belt holster for better protection of his revolver in the field. Offering that style has also resulted in several customer contacts each week, and I'm now making at least one or two every week. So, the bulk of my production remains holsters for concealed carry applications, as it has for years. But by adding just two totally unrelated designs I have increased total holster sales by about 20%, and total sales volume by about 30%.

When I recently started making the Threepersons-style holsters in the original style, and offering the original style of carving, I very quickly started receiving requests for these to fit the Colt SAA (Threepersons' sidearm of choice, back in the day). I ordered an aluminum dummy from Duncan's (www.duncansoutdoor.com, 989-894-6691), Colt SAA with 4.75" barrel, and I have added plug-in barrel extensions for the 5.5" and 7.5" models. This has worked just fine. RE: cost; while $45 plus shipping (about $53 delivered) may seem like a considerable expense for a single project, the way that I look at it is that the first job pays for the dummy gun, then I have it on hand for future orders. For some obsolete and out-of-production handguns I have been known to purchase an actual handgun for holster forming, when the demand warrants it and dummy guns aren't readily available (after all, the cost is deductible as a business expense for tax purposes, and the value of quality handguns has been increasing at much higher rates than inflation for years). "what a bunch of crap about an infringement!", sounds like the words of a man who will be paying a lawyer lots of money sometime in the future! Be very careful about copying others products or methods for any business use for profit. Best regards.

Pocket holsters are generally limited to small framed revolvers and semi-autos. No need for a great deal of strength. I use 4-5 oz. veg-tanned, rough side out to increase friction within the pocket. I make these somewhat oversized to facilitate easy draw and I don't form the holster closely or tightly to the handgun (just closely enough to maintain the handgun in a constant position). In my opinion, the holster should reduce and conceal the profile of the handgun, so any details that might "print" through the pocket fabric should be avoided.

The specialty punches are best for volume production. For the occasional job, or hobbyist producing a holster for personal use, a sharp wood chisel and 1/4" round punch can produce neat clean slots quickly and easily. After cutting run your edge beveler around the new edges, dampen the leather slightly, and burnish with a wooden dowel chucked into a drill press or drill. Total process can be done in less time than it takes to describe it.

The neatsfoot oil penetrates completely through the leather and infuses the fibers, including the interior. I apply to the exterior only because that allows for even absorption. Applying directly to the flesh side results in very rapid absorption, so there is less control of the application process. Following the settling period you can easily see that the oil has fully penetrated all areas. So, neatsfoot oil is the basic finishing process. Application of the acrylic is a sealing process. The interior can be done with a swab, or the item can be dipped and allowed to drain. Dipping results in a more thorough job, in my opinion; it also uses considerably more of the solution (which I think is a good thing). Good luck.

In my experience, 8 oz. veg-tanned is pretty much ideal for most applications. This weight has plenty of strength to retain the shape formed to, and sufficient flexibility to resist cracking under stress. Holsters intended for duty use, field use, or competition use can be made quite easily using leather in the 8-9 oz. weight range and lining with leather of 2-5 oz. weight. The resulting combinations are very durable and will withstand a great deal of pressure without deforming in any way. Some applications actually call for lighter weights. I make pocket holsters of 5 oz. veg-tanned cowhide with very good results. Some IWB customers prefer 5-6 oz. veg-tanned for minimum bulk inside the waistband. Overall, if I could only buy one weight of leather it would be 8 oz. from Hermann Oaks or Wicket & Craig. I can produce just about anything from those fine products.

Carl: I know I am starting to sound like a broken record, and I know that there are forum members having significant experience that contradicts my own findings, but I will continue to recommend the use of neatsfoot oil compound as the primary finishing agent following holster forming and dying. After more than 35 years of using neatsfoot oil as the primary finishing process I have never had a complaint of dye rubbing off on clothing or the handgun. Neatsfoot oil penetrates the leather, infusing the fibers, and seems to "set" the dye in the process. Once the piece has fully dried after dying, I use a 1" paint brush to apply a single coating of neatsfoot oil to the exterior surfaces. That is allowed to settle into the leather overnight. Then I apply my final finishes, consisting of Fiebing's Bag Kote for a deep warm satin finish. When that has settled (about 2 to 4 hours) I apply an acrylic sealant for surface protection against moisture. Resolene works well if you like a higher gloss, I prefer another product (can't reveal everything here, can we?) to enhance the satiny sheen of the finish. There are several available, and a few trials with scrap pieces will lead you to a finish you can feel good about. Note that neatsfoot oil can be overdone, excessive application will leave any leather article limp and useless. One application, and only one! This will provide very good long-term protection against moisture infiltration, and as I have observed, it will also settle the dye into the leather completely. Note also that neatsfoot oil will ALWAYS darken a dyed leather product significantly. We must experiment with our dyes on scrap pieces before proceeding to the final finishing process. A light brown dye will be turned medium to dark brown. A medium brown dye will be turned very dark brown. A dark brown dye will be turned nearly ebony in final finish. Neatsfoot oil, properly applied, also provides a moderate degree of flexibility without worrying about surface cracking. Holsters will accomodate themselves to belt attachments, and conform around the user's body contours very readily, while retaining the molded shape very well. Fifty to one hundred years ago there was only one way to finish veg-tanned leather, and the old saddlers and holster makers all used neatsfoot oil, and perhaps a bit of beeswax. Many of those old holsters still exist, some in fine shape. I know of holsters that I made over 30 years ago that remain in use today. Polymers and acrylics are wonderful products, properly applied and used. But there is no substitute for hundreds of years of experience with the old methods, which can be improved upon by some of the modern products. Best regards.

Very nice workmanship, excellent design work. I'm sure that your customer is very pleased with the result.

Exceptionally nice work, Monica. Any customer ordering from you will get their money's worth and more. Best regards. By the way, having used both Hermann Oaks and Wicket & Craig's products, I tend to prefer the Hermann Oaks, and Kevin at Springfield Leather is a pleasure to deal with every time.

I recommend against the use of a thumb-break on IWB holsters. The holstered pistol is drawn very tightly into the body making it somewhat difficult to release the thumb-break, especially when the body is in certain positions (and we can't always be in the position we might like to be when we need to draw the weapon). Any potential obstruction to accessibility must be carefully examined, and the customer has to be made aware of potential conflicts.

Exceptionally nice work. Thanks for posting.

Overall, looks like a good design. I agree with Shorts on the sharp corners, as those can be quite uncomfortable as well as snagging on the clothing. I like the fact that you have kept all of the pistol's "controls" (safeties, mag release, etc) clear of the holster; this is essential to any holster design but sadly overlooked in many examples. Nice work.

It sounds to me like you are using a dye product that is water-based and/or water soluable. When in contact with moisture from perspiration the dye is being dissolved and transfered. Try spirit-based dyes (alcohol base, Fiebing's standard product, not the oil based or institutional line), allow to dry thoroughly prior to further finishing. Personally, I use neatsfoot oil compound on all of my holsters, and this seems to "set" the dye without further treatments. After the neatsfoot oil has settled into the leather for 24 hours you may apply your final finish. I use Fiebing's Bag Kote, followed by an acrylic sealer. One of the most time consuming parts of producing leather holsters is the finishing process. Wet-forming (followed by 24 hours drying time), dying (followed by 4 to 8 hours drying time), oiling (followed by 24 hours settling time), finish coating (followed by 2 to 4 hours drying time), surface sealant (followed by 24 hours curing time). I make 20 to 30 items per week, and I am always running back and forth to the shop for an hour or two to complete one process and start the next one. Others, including a number of forum members, will disagree with me on the neatsfoot oil. I have used it for decades and stand by it as a basic treatment to prevent moisture infiltration and provide a degree of flexibility to the finished product. The application process is simple: swab the exterior surfaces of the holster liberally with neatsfoot oil one time, and one time only, allowing it to be absorbed into the leather. Too much oiling will leave any piece limp and useless; a proper oiling will leave the piece in solid structural condition, ready to withstand moisture infiltration, and with sufficient flexibility to avoid surface cracking from stresses applied by the belt and handgun. Note that neatsfoot oil compound does not "dry", but is absorbed into the leather and infuses the fibers, remaining there for the life of the product. I don't know why it seems to "set" the dyes, but I have observed that result for many years, and have never had a complaint of dye rubbing off. Also note that application of neatsfoot oil compound will always darken any dyed leather significantly. Experimentation is needed to achieve the final finish color desired. Even a relatively light dye will be transformed several shades darker by the oiling process.

Thank you for the response. I'm sure that my wife would notice anything I tried to sneak past her, bikini model or not! Best regards!

When the day comes that we lose that degree of admiration for those who came before us, those who solved all the real problems involved, and left for us truly inspirational pieces to emulate, that is the day that we should shut down our little shops and do other things with our time. I am enjoying making accurate reproductions of a 90-year old holster design, while improving on it in several ways that the original makers never would have thought of, as no one ever asked them to do so. I am enjoying having modern artists recreate the original carving patterns displayed on Mr. Tom Threepersons' personal holster, which no other modern maker has done to my knowledge. Meanwhile, I continue to operate a small business turning out 20 to 30 production items per week in my little shop on the south bank of the Arkansas River in Pueblo, Colorado. I continue to receive 8 to 10 e-mail inquiries per day, some of which result in interesting custom work that challenges me to do more every day and every week. Every day is a new day, with new opportunities and challenges. I am an old man, with 8 grandchildren and a (nearly year-old) great-grandson. Life is good for me. I hope that life will always be good for you, sir.

I understand the wish to maximize uniformity, and produce a consistent product. But, quite frankly, making 20 to 30 holsters in my little shop every week, I find it much easier to do them by hand. How frequently can such a device be utilized? Maybe I'm just old fashioned! Maybe I need to get everything automated.

Well, thank you, sir. I don't claim to be an artist. I don't even claim to be a craftsman. Occasionally something gets out of my mouth (or off of my keyboard) that comes back to me and I have to accept responsibility for it. Touche. I think I'll let you take the pimp and rookie cop market, and I'll just settle for the occasional reproduction of classic styles and patterns for those who appreciate them. Best regards.

Update, for what it may be worth. Posted these photos on my website and within 3 hours had the first order for a hand-carved holster. Since then I have received a dozen inquiries and several more orders. The Threepersons design is not likely to go away any time soon, I think.

Any suggestions for sources for the Kydex?

For suede leather I would suggest ordering the color you intend to use, no additional finish required. Up to about 4-5 oz. weight it can be cut neatly and cleanly with household scissors (of decent quality and edge). Almost all sueded leather is chrome tanned so no additional finish is necessary. It wears very well and, in this application, absorbs perspiration and gives it up via evaporation without many worries over staining. If anything, maybe a little silicone spray might benefit the finished product. The most beneficial property I have found for shoulder harness use is the ability of suede leather to conform readily to any contour, no puckers here and there to worry about. Get your basic design close to the mark and the suede leather will do the rest all by itself. Very comfortable, by the way. The holster I posted pictures of was worn by me under a light cotton shirt, either with or without a T-shirt, for several weeks. No chafing, no irritation, soft and comfy on the old skin covering my old bones. Best regards.

Project is coming along nicely, Monica. Hope you are being well paid for all the time you are putting into this one! Of course, additional orders are to be expected down the road, so the research and development time is worth it. In response to the musings about straps (curved, wider), I would suggest that curved straps would be of little benefit because the weight of the holstered handgun would tend to pull them straight and cause little distortions in the leather that might print through the cover garment. I would suggest straps wider over the shoulder area where the weight is being supported, tapering down to a width appropriate for holster attachment. Also, veg-tan leather may not be the best choice for the straps. Other tannages offer much improved flexibility and may conform to the required contours better and lie flatter for better concealment. Here is one that I made a few months ago using 4-5 oz. suede leather for the shoulder support, nylon straps to the off-side, and a single mag pouch on the off-side. Completely different harness style than you are working on, but this illustrates both a wider strap (tapering from 2.5" to 1") and the soft, supple suede applied to the shoulder support.

PM with additional photos sent.