David Genadek

Hey you guys, I never met Verlane in person but we spent a lot of time on the phone. Our conversations were often about the state of the craft, teaching and the attitudes of students. These were not light conversations and frankly I will really miss them. But I can say in certain terms that she wanted people sharing and talking and helping each other get better. It was a huge frustration of hers that she would do all this work and it wouldn't get used. One example would be the work she did on evaluating peoples work. It is really excellent and could be an outline for so many things from classes to judging competitions. I can't speak to what the position of her estate will be but I can say the best way to honor her life is to share everything she shared with you. Take it and run with it, add to it and make it your own. David Genadek

Bev, You lucky dog your near one of the best restuarants in the country, Casablanca. You can get a hold of me after the Holidays. I don't sell tools and there are no places around here that would have the quality of tools you would need to get a saddle done. The Leather Guy in St Charles has a good supply of leather though and is starting to get into other supplies. Other than that it is Tandy which is really a Fundametalist Christian organization (or at least has been in the past) that focuses on camps and Boy Scouts so as a rule thier tools are not suitable for real leather work although you can get by with thier stamps for tooling. As a rule their hand tools are worthless. But I can get you in touch with the people that make functional tools. For the purpose of clarity you don't make a Bridle you make a headstall and riens, it becomes a bridle when you add the bit. Although the peices are small it is not a product you would want to use scrap for. I can explain enough to you when you are here to give you a beginning point and I certainly have enough scrap that you can use to practice with. I will look forward to hearing form you. David Genadek

The whole side and a half thing comes from factories. What they don't tell you is that they buy their stirrups and flank cinches from other people so in the end they are all using at least two sides of leather per saddle. It is one thing to do a bunch of saddles of the same type with set patterns and another when you do custom. Besides you have nothing to loose by basing your prices on lower yields and everything to loose by basing them on higher yields. In the end it is foolish for a small shop to sharpen thier pencil to try and compete on price. 2.5 sides per saddle is a wise move if you can do three do it. I don't care how good you are knives slip, dye spills, eyes don't see flaws until the oil hits, you forget to flip a pattern,orders get read wrong...mistakes happen. David Genadek

Hooray for Verlane for living until she died! Hooray for Verlane for how she lived her life: Unquestionable integrity! Dedicated to the pursuit of truth! She gave freely ,openly and honestly! Her knowledge was hard won but she found joy in the pursuit and even more joy in sharing it with others that could understand! She knew what was right and she stuck to it even when good ole boy networks tried to beat her down! It is a great loss to the community. For every single thing that we know she did there are hundreds of other things she did quietly behind the scenes to benefit us all and this is a mark of a great person. Everytime a craftsman chooses the right way over the easy way , Verlane lives. Hooray for Verlane!!! Saddened by her passing but inspired by her living, David Genadek

Bev, You would be welcome to visit my Shop in Spring Valley MN about an hour west of La Crosse. I have many kinds of trees here and a bunch of horses so I could give you a pretty good perspective on different approaches in the industry. I have also spent a lot of time with Bill Gomer and will say that Bill is as good a teacher as you are a student. In other words the more you know going in the more you will walk away with. I also have a friend nearby that took Bills class recently that I can get you in touch with. Personally I would advise you against doing any kits. You learn virtually nothing about leather working from a kit and it will actually hinder your developement as a saddlemaker. I would advise you to pick some projects you would like to make and make them. You need to focus on why, not how. You will discover the hows as fast as you get clear on the why's. You have to learn to think leather. David Genadek

It is a tool of quite communication and when properly used in skilled hands no Cracking is ever necessary. You talk to the horse through it. By nature horeses will do what they are asked when asked correctly. David Genadek

It is very rare that the saddle has any thing to do with a saddle listing to one side. In most cases it is poor horsemanship that is the culprit. Everyone in the horse industry should be well versed in the information contained in this article. Saddlemakers take way to much blame for ignorance on the part of the horse owner. David Genadek

where it belongs on Spanish Mustangs in the first place? The last place I ever put a girth is in the so-called girth channel. Anatomically that makes no sense to me. How about fitting a SM for varied disciplines? From my perspective the horse’s biomechanics do not change from one discipline to another only the humans costume changes. The bottom of a saddle has no need to change from discipline to discipline there for there would be no need to make any changes to the rigging either. David Genadek

Allen, I just presented those as configurations. The arrows do not represent force vectors. They are just where you would tie them on. The pictures below are just examples of those configurations in a form people are used to seeing. It is a hand out I use at clinics. I believe what you mentioned here is the proof that when you pull on the point of the triangle the force will be directed to where the area of the triangle is divided in half. I agree fully with you. At the same time the other two configurations are valid also when properly used. Personally I am with you and all my rigging is of the triangular configuration and I also include rear rigging. However in the past the triangular rigging was used a lot with no rear rigging. They were called single rigged saddles in the old catalogs. The important concept here is exactly what you described which means a flat plate rigging is not just a couple of big hunks of leather that you slap on but actually a feat of engineering that the saddle maker should be aware of with a clear understanding of the consequences of the shapes that are created. David Genadek

David, I have been playing with doing it in a Nurbs program namly Rhino 3d. I work with a guy who is really good on the program, Frank Woll and I have had him show me how to draw flowers but the notion of being able to twist and turn things easily is still a bit beyond the current technology. Frank can crank out a flower stem and leaves in about two minutes but for me I draw it faster on paper. It would be nice to have for altering designs on size runs of things though. It is on my when I have time list. Another program that will probable end up being the one for this kind of work will be Moi3d. This is being done by the guy that invented Rhino. He didn't like the direction they were going in, too CAD oriented, so he went to work for Microsoft now he is back working on his original vision for a 3d drawing program. The thing about computers technology though is that it can't replace knowing how to do it. If you get good at drawing manually then going to the computer could yield some great results. When people start carving the next step is to try to create a design so they clip and paste and patch something together. In my mind there is a process that should be followed if your drawing manually and the same process should be followed if you are drawing on the computer. I learned the process from Bob Brown who also taught this to Al Stohlmann. It is a simple process that really frees your creativity but for some reason no one has gotten it in a book yet, well Bob devoted a few pages to it in what was probable the original pattern pack. I expect it is not getting out there because it would make it so easy for people to make thier own designs that sales of patterns would go out the window. David Genadek

I haven't had good luck with the punches from Weaver we have had a lot of problems with edges rolling over on them under heavy use. I have one of the thier round knives but my Buckmans are my favorite. I have about five of the Marlins but as we sharpened them the blade thickness became a real issue and I had to spend too much time thinning the blades down. Verlane told me about the Buckmans and I have been very glad of that! I did have another round knife that I really liked that I baought rom Ellis Barnes when I worked for him but I don't know if he is making them. His friend Red made the knives and I think he died. The handle on that knife was really great for skiving. David Genadek

Since a saddle can be placed wherever the tree was designed to be placed rigging position relative to the saddle becomes a moot point. What about position relative to the horse? Where do you want the cinch and why? There is one shape of horse where the under line does effect the fit of the saddle. Horses or mules that have an onion shaped rib cage often have an under line that narrows quickly in the front making the cinch slide forwards which in turn pulls the saddle forward. Many of these mustangs have this problem but it has been handled effectively for a long time in the world of mules by using a packer’s cinch. I break rigging into two categories configuration and position. I have found the configuration element to be of greater value to me than position. I think of the saddle as a rocking chair and I want the middle of the rung to have constant contact. I have attached pdf file of how I look at configuration. David Genadek rigging_configuration.pdf rigging_configuration.pdf

Ok Techies, Here is the deal , horses don’t have collar bones to hold their sternum in the center of their two front legs. This isn’t much of a problem in the wild, but when we introduce the human into the equation it can have a dramatic effect on the shape of the horse. Keeping a horse straight is critical in all aspects of horsemanship. If they are crooked they are unable to utilize their ring of muscles, which is a whole set of muscles that allow them to use their body the way it was designed to work. If this system of muscles is not being utilized by the animal,their back shape can be greatly effected. So from a technical stand point you may say it is no big deal to capture a bunch of shapes and group them but in reality the shapes have been so corrupted by mans influence that it makes the problem seem overwhelming at times. I posted a link under Off Topic of pictures I recently took in the Pryor Mountains of wild mustangs. Here the potential for an accurate data set exsists but this is very rare! From the stand point of building trees it puts one in a position of needing to learn a great deal about training techniques, dentistry, shoeing and biting so you can understand what the horses shape should be. Now there is no way any one person can become proficient enough in all these areas to figure the problem out. In the end it takes a team of people just to figure out if the shape you are trying to capture should be captured and included in a data set. The other issue is the shape is constantly changing so what you really want to capture is a composite shape of the back in motion. I began getting a handle on this by making molds of backs in different positions from their I figured I could just cinch the casting material on and move the horse and this gave me the composite shape I was looking for. That experience now allows me to adjust a 3d model of a static back into a 3d model of a dynamic back. From there we can model the bar shapes. I was just in Seattle working with my 3d guy who now has access to a 3d printer so I am awaiting my first printed prototypes of some new parts. This rapid protoyping technology should really speed up our development process and allow for more experimentation. David Genadek

I just spent some time in the Pryor Mountains with the mustangs. Here is a link to some photos. David Genadek

Blake, There are two primary differences between the male and female pelvis. Firstly, the seats bones on a woman are wider relative to the front on a woman than a man. This means women need a wider seat in the rear. This is why many think the seat is too wide and it is prying them apart. That really means the seat is too narrow and it is getting between their seat bones and it is prying them apart. The other difference is that the leg socket sets further back on a woman and the leg comes out at more of an angle than it does on a man. This means the seat needs to start wider but narrow more quickly than it does for man. Women also need to ride with more bend to their leg than a man does because of these anatomical differences. Here is a good article on the subject written by Deb Bennett PHD. I brought Deb to a museum and had her go through pelvic structure with me but I think most museums have a paleontologist on staff that could help you. When I was first trying to figure all this out I got some folks and made molds of their behinds. I made some sheets of fiberglass out of water activated casting material and set it on a piece of foam on the horses back. I had my victim’s strip down and put a garbage bags on then we set them on the horses back. I used the molds when carving my groundwork until I got the shapes locked in my mind. It was kind of fun to watch people walk in the shop looking to see a row of butts. Another really good resource for understanding seats is Peggy Cummings. When I was looking for someone that was good with rider position everyone pointed me in her direction. Every saddle maker should spend time with Peggy. This woman understands rider position like no one else and she is great teacher. David Genadek

Yes, silence does speak loudly. Your challenge was childish ,one sided and had nothing to do with the points being discussed. Firstly at no time did I say anything about Rods skill has as a craftsman or a make any comment about the quality of his workmanship. Nor did I ever compare Rods work to what Bowdens do. If you want a fight go to a bar, the purpose of this forum is education. I did challenge commonly held beliefs in the industry. I am sorry you all feel so threatened by these simple ideas. David Genadek

Susan, Ahh so Whoddie is famous! I’ll tell him that next time he is here. Let me comment on one of your other posts. 1) rigging (3/4) to 5/8) too far back on rib cage, causes saddle to slip up onto shoulders and cinch to become loose. This is not a rigging position issue it is a tree fitting issue. Since rigging position is dependant on where the tree maker designed the tree to fit it is really hard to pin point issues in regard to position. If the tree fits properly you should have not have a problem positioning the cinch so that it is behind the elbow when the front leg is back as far as it can go. If you are using a double rigged saddle I would ask if you are using your rear cinch as tight as the front if not then you could have been causing the issue. Jane has documented her work with Liz quite well and probable has some photos of Whoodie with a saddle in the 5/8 position. The saddle she rides is also in the 5/8 positions so you might want to ask her what her experience has been in regard to rigging position. 2) Back of tree digs into the loins This is common in all breeds and is usually because of two things one the tree does not have enough rock or the saddle is being placed to far back. I put an additional flair on the rear tip of the bar to prevent this from happening and it also lets me direct the rear of the skirt away from the hindquarters when I shape the skirts. 3) pinching at withers The tree is just not the right shape or it has a downhill orientation and if so you are back to point 1 are you using the rigging properly. 4) tree cutting into the muscling along ribheads This is a sign that the twist of the bar is incorrect for the shape of the back. You will have more of this issue on the Mustangs that have been more heavily influenced by the Barb. On the horse with a well-sprung rib cage you will get pressure on the bottom edge of the bar. 5) gaps between front of tree and back of tree along horses backs (one or both sides) This is a product of more than one element being off. However, if the problem is only occurring on one side you should check the straightness of the horse. If the horse is moving so that the sternum is staying directly between the two front legs. Then he is straight if not you must correct the issue in training. 6) improper contact at wither/shoulder pocket (to tight, or to sloppy) Here again this can have many causes but generally it means the bars are not the right shape for the horse. However a tree can fit perfect and you can negate the fit 100% with improper cinching so you might need to look back to 1. 7) Many types of riggings such as flat plate dig into horses ribs) The top shape of bar to a large extent determines the angles that the rigging will be coming off the tree. So if the tree is the wrong shape for the back the chance that you will have rigging issues. The saddle maker should also be molding the rigging to the shape of the horse when they construct the saddle. If you have had trouble with flat plate it is not because it is a bad rigging it is more likely that it was improperly applied. I do see people with every breed deciding that they are a very unique situation. Generally it usually is just that they have become interested enough to notice the reality before them. If you go look at a bunch of other breeds now you will see them differently too. I used to do 6 to 8 saddle fitting clinics a month. I had a lot of people bringing me gaited horses and each would go on about how unique their breed was and they had such special needs. I got to where I was almost be leaving it despite the fact all my training told me the horses were just messed up. I got a hold of Liz as one of the leading experts on gaited horses I figured I would get the straight scoop. I pulled up to her place and looked at her walkers and told her they looked like QH. She laughed at me and said I was used to seeing gaited horses that were all screwed up. Around here every horse is an individual. David Genadek

Susan, I see more than one back type here although pretty hard to say a whole lot from one single view. My understanding is that the Mustangs were influenced by the Barb (more of an angle to the ribs) from the south and a Canadian horse (well sprung rib cage) that looked like a Morgan from the north. Although I see variations in rib cage shape in every breed so I would hesitate to say that is a why the variation in the Mustangs. My point is you can never look at saddle fit in terms of breed. You can look at it in terms of ribcage shape and that will carry you across many breeds. Everyone seems to want to create the magic tree that will fit a breed and I'm sure Wrangler would like to make a pair of jeans that fits anyone that likes to sing but the reality is we have to fit the rib cage type of individual horses and not their breed. Although it is true that horses of a breed will often have similar characteristics, the notion of having a Mustang tree or a gaited horse tree is just marketing and has nothing to do with the reality of the horse. I have attached a tracing of a back I got in on Friday to emphasize how you just can’t say that you have a tree to fit a particular breed. Can anyone guess what breed of horse this is? A word about withers: Withers can be long or short they can be straight or angled. Most are taught to look at the bump on the top of the horse and see that as the Wither but that is only the tip of the proverbial iceberg. Each vertebra has a bone sticking up out of the top called a spinal process on top of the spinal process there is a cap of cartilage where the dorsal ligament attaches. So the spinal processes are levers that work in conjunction with the cable system that is the dorsal ligament. The withers are longer levers. To get a handle on how long they really are you have to find the base of neck and look from there to the top of the whither and that will tell you how big the wither actually is. The more angle the wither has the further back into the body it will tie in. Horses with well-sprung rib cages and fuller muscle type are often thought to have less whither when often that is not the case you just can’t see it. David Genadek

Rod, Where do you expect contact to be with your trees? Would you be willing to explain more about why? The contact will be in the same place as it would be on your trees because we have a limited amount of space that can actually bear the wieght. I am basically extending the front of the bar forward with the notion it that it is there to allow me to construct the saddle but will not bear wieght. This eliminates any possability that the front edge of the bar will dig in and this allows me to put the rider more forward on to an area that is easier for the horse to carry the wieght. It also resolves many of the issues people have with skirt leangth. It is basically taken what you have said about gullet width and hand hold area one step further. The down side is once you make this move you have to be very delibrate in your saddle making. David Genadek

John, If it turns out that you will need to paint the project you can go to a shoe finder and get products that are designed with the flexability you need. I used to work for a company name Dyo Chemical and a big part of the business is redying shoes. Of course white is is a popular color and they make many shades. Spraying would be the best application. They also make a product for creating a patent leather look if shiney is what you want. David Genadek

Here is a link to my version of a back tracing. We do a few things different. One we place the topeline on a level line so we can get an understanding of the horses orientation. Two we have choosen three easy to identify key anatomical points as a referance. The high part to the whither the base of the whither and the last rib. This allows us to do a comparitive study between a multitude of horses that I hope will some day allow us to identify standard ribcage shapes. Capturing the whole whither shape is important in my way of doing things as I place the saddle much further forward which puts it in an area of the horses body that is best designed to carry the wieght. This is also why twist is more important to me than it might be to others. I do not capture the second horizontal section because it has already been captured in the rib cross sections. I want to aviod capturing a moment in time. Instead my goal is to capture the horse's ribcage shape as it is meant to be. David Genadek

Saddle making is a journey that can take you down many roads that lead to many worlds. You can choose to stay in one world or bop around to your hearts content. For those of us who have done a lot bopping around, there are similarities amongst all the worlds and those similarities are based on the anatomy and biomechanics of how the horse moves. These do not change everything else is mans interpretatition of those physical realities. Since the beginning of horsemanship there have been two main interpretations of those physical realities. Brida and Jineta. In Brida the horse is thought to move forward by going forward. The equipment often takes advantage of leverage to force the horse into a frame. In Jineta the belief is that the horse goes forward by going backward. The equipment in this world is about communication and getting the horse to engage the hindquarter to create lightness in the front end. This is in fact how it works but it is counter intuitive and some find the concept hard to grasp. As the battle of these two seats progressed the Brida world did some compromising and a third seat emerged called a la Bastarda or Estradiota. This is the seat you will often see in the show ring today. Anyone building saddles should understand this history as it affects everything you do . Conquerors by Deb Bennett PhD is the best source of information I have found on the subject. Here is a link to her bookstore. On that page you will also find a back issue of her Inner horseman on Saddle fit. In this she has some diagrams that she originally did for me to help me get clear on what is happening anatomy wise. These diagrams are spectacular ! I would recommend both these resources for any one that is serious about understanding saddle function. In my world I never loose track of the Jineta vs Brida perspective because it helps me find perspective when the opinions begin to fly. For instance in my world horses don’t have pockets behind their shoulders and there is never concave musculature along the back if there is we put the horse into rehabilitation. When I hear people speaking about placing the tree in the pockets I understand that the notion began with jousting saddles which had two large arches whose purpose was to dig in to the horses back to stabilize the saddle . As much as I respect that you all have a right to live in that world I no longer do, I once did. Understanding Jineta and Brida can help you bring clarity to your customer’s requests. Through out these threads there have been many references to getting the rider closer to the horse by thinning the bars down. I used to have a shop in River Falls WI, which at the time was a hot bed for the reining horse world. The rieners kept coming I saying they want a deep seat I want close contact . So I did what they told me to do. Seat after seat I would go closer and closer to setting them on the spine. They would never quite be happy with the seats. I finally got disgusted and did exactly opposite of what they told me to do and then they said “Wow now that is a deep seat !†What they wanted was a classic Jineta seat but they didn’t know what that was and they certainly didn’t know how to tell me to build it. In addition, this confusion also creates others like needing to scallop the skirt in the center and the narrowing of the center of the bar. After that I realized I had a lot to learn and I shouldn’t be learning it from confused customers. In my world I can make the top of the bar extremely thick and it actually helps my groundwork shape. I can also maintain a greater width the entire length of the bar, which helps distribute the weight to a part of the anatomy that can handle it. Rod was correct in his assessment of the complexity of the bar geometries. The shapes I use would be very difficult to achieve with traditional duplicating methods used by the industry. However today we have a new world with the advancements in NURBS mathmatics that allow computers to generate free form shapes with out the constraints of the parametrics that were needed in traditional CAD programs. Programs like Rhino 3d are reshaping how products are designed. Rapid Prototyping is developing at light speed and before long it won’t be out of the question for each saddle maker to have a computerized router in his shop that can cut his own tree parts complete with indexing so the tree has to be square. These technological changes bring new opportunities to the custom maker but these opportunities are not with out challenge. I started my company 14 years ago with Dan Crates, we were a skunk works, for Crates Leather Company. As a smaller more nimble company we were free to innovate and test concepts before they were put in to the traditional production setting. Dan was trained by FO Baird and is one of the most knowledgeable saddle makers I have ever met. Dan Crates has a passion for traditional saddle making and design, which he tries his best to build into his production line. Unfortunately as we progressed it quickly became clear that Crates does not sell to the end user, they sell to the retailer. Therefore their product lines have to conform to the retailer’s perception in order to fit in and be successful in that market. Although the types of innovation I am speaking of do make a saddle more production capable they do not fit into the current mindset of the retail store. Retail stores are about moving product they are not about teaching and helping their customers become better horseman . This in my mind is the greatest advantage the custom maker has over the factory saddles. As a rule most people can’t tell the difference between hand carving and something that was done with a plate. So in all actuality our greatest advantage is our knowledge of equine anatomy and biomechanics. If the trees we use offer no advantage other than a better wood and nicer stitching on the rawhide as a rule the customer won’t much care because they are looking for benefits to their horsemanship. Bottom line is the custom maker can’t compete on price he has to compete with superior knowledge and this is the real challenge. Tree makers are in the business to build trees the way the saddle maker requests. I had a wonderful conversation with Francis Bowden where he shared with me some of his frustrations with things that saddle makers were requesting. From his perspective his job is to make the tree the way the saddle maker requested. They are after all on the front line and should know. Since they are paying him to make the tree he is obligated to create what they want even when he knows it to be wrong. The problem is we saddle makers put the power of design in the hands of amature horse people or half baked trainers looking for this weeks gimmick to give them selves the edge. As I read what Rod has been writing I see bits of every world I have been in this industry. He is doing exactly what he should be doing which is building the trees the way saddle makers have requested. My hope is that saddle makers can begin to take a greater interest in anatomy and biomechanics so that they could begin to develop common ground based on the physical facts. David Genadek

Pete, Sometimes the space defines the design sometimes the design defines the space. In this case I think you have a design defining the space. I would try loosing the border and carve it as an inverted design. I think then you might say I have a prize winner. The style I see emerging from you is one where the design does define the space so this is not "Sheridan" it is Peterdan. Go take a look at Peter Mains site, his style of design and carvng would be the best complement for where I see you going. David Genadek

My web site is aboutthehorse.com The saddles you will see are more of a production saddle I have borrowed techiniques from both worlds to try to hit a market between the factory saddle and the custom saddle. The focus of this line is proper fit. You will notice that I am making a cordura saddles also, which was a tough for me to do but that line is now about 50% of the business. I have e-mailed my 3d guy and asked him do make a few virtual trees up that are semi transparent that you will be able to see the over all shape better. Looking at a picture of a tree really won't tell you a whole lot. Usually when I question someones credability I google thier name to see what it pops up. Credible people will genererally have quite a bit but you have to sift out the marketing driven promotional aspect and see what people that have worked with them have to say. David Genadek [quote name=snakehorse saddler' date='May 5 2007, 04:44 PM' post='4367] David, can you show us some of your trees and saddle that you are building or are having other people build for you which ever it is?

Mr, Nikkel, My comments were not directed toward you as a personal attack I said: "I don’t mean to pick on Mr. Nikkel here because it looks like he is doing a better job and making a bigger effort to understand what he is doing than most. I very much commend his efforts in explaining leg based sizing versus seat size, as this absolutely should be the standard we work off of. My point is that our lively hood depends on the trees we use and in the end we are the ones that take the flack from the customer. As saddle makers we need to start pushing the tree makers to a new paradigm that will give us an advantage in the market place." Your paradigm is very much in line with the rest of the industry in fact you are making efforts to expand it in a positive direction. I think you will find that if incorporate twist along with the concept or orientation to what you are currently doing you will find that the rear of the bar can also play an important role in stabalizing the saddle during roping. Bottom line for me is I have no need for this list. I have my tree company and my saddle company. I have more business than I can keep up with for both companies. I have no need to prove anything to any one. I have learned a lot by working my way through every aspect of this industry and I am willing to share that openly with all of you. David Genadek