Why are so few small/mid sized items lined?

[dans79]

Maybe its just me, but it seems like most wallets, notebook covers, folios etc aren't lined. I'm not talking about about the inside of a card pocket or something that never gets seen. I'm talking about features that you are going to see every time you use use the product. 

I've thought about it for a while, and the only thing that comes to mind, are cost and aesthetics. For a hobbyist on a budget, or someone just starting out, I can understand not wanting to buy multiple weights of leather so you can line a project, or spending the time to do so. However, I even see a lot of professionals and small mom and pop companies  making stuff like this, where cost should be less of a concern. 

Take this $90  filed notebook cover for example. This is a "premium" item produced/sold by a good sized company with a good reputation. Imo, this is a rather extreme  example, as the flesh side is nasty/hairy, not to mention the stings around the front card slot opening.

https://fieldnotesbrand.com/products/daily-carry-leather-notebook-cover


Am, I missing something? other than costs and aesthetics why are so few items lined? 

[Tugadude]

The stitching on that notebook is everything I don't care for in machine stitching.  Functional, yes.  Attractive, to me a big no.  

But you asked about lining and I have to assume that cost is the main driving factor.  I would say thickness on small items, but lining can be made so thin that if you really want to use it, thickness isn't prohibitive.  

Some of the mass-produced wallets I've seen used lining leather that was literally paper thin.  

I don't care for the "hairy" look and if it were me, I'd at least slick the exposed portions of the interior with TanKote or equivalent.  Leaving it that way it looks unfinished to me.

[Chakotay]

Lining adds thickness (and stiffness). Things you may not want on certain items. In particular, I'm always trying to get my wallet as thin as I can.

[dans79]

1 minute ago, Chakotay said:

Lining adds thickness (and stiffness). Things you may not want on certain items. In particular, I'm always trying to get my wallet as thin as I can.

That part I get, as I've been experimenting with it my self. 

As Tugadude said though you can get leather really thin now.

For example I have a 1 oz. sample of Badalassi Carlo Waxy. Imo it would require being lined with something equally as thick as it is, just to be usable. It's so thin and soft to start with, I don't know what you could use it for on it's own. 

[fredk]

I line about 90% of my small items. I mainly use extremely thin lining leather and on the very odd occasion I use cloth material

The 10% or less not lined is usually the cheapy 'pocket money' items

[mike02130]

1 hour ago, dans79 said:

 

Here are some rambling thoughts.

Year after year things get cheaper and quality falls more and more by the wayside.  One example is the wood fittings inside a newly built home versus 100 years ago.  Same goes for shoes, clothing, tools and even candy bars.  For all of us that think it's crap, new consumers come in to replace us without knowing or experiencing better.  A large percentage of the population just don't know what good is.  

Then there is the recent popularity making leather goods.  Many are not craftsman but makers, assemblers and the like.  I read some shop's About sections and many describe their dissatisfaction in the corporate or I.T. world.  They start an Etsy shop, do social media and then open a Shopify site.  They lack the skills to make a quality product and lack the pride of doing excellent work.  They judge themselves by their "likes" on social media and their income.  Quality is not a barometer for their work.

Making things cheaply and lack of quality is a great saver of time, thought and labor.  There is no need to buy a bell skiver or splitter when one can buy off the shelf leather at varying thickness', machine sew a chunky wallet and throw it up on their website.  All that's needed is a clicker press and a sewing machine.

To go back to my thought that people don't know or care about quality, look at the items they do buy.  Cheap Chinese products made out of leather from an unknown origin or designer products that lack some qualities but have a fancy label.  I make and sell some items that are lined inside and out with fancy leather, but my competition has similar yet shoddy items for one quarter the price.  Cheap usually wins out.  Uniqueness loses.

 

 

[johnnydb]

There's a thing with market saturation and craftsmanship.   

Not everyone can afford  custom leather goods just like they can't afford to eat at your city's finest restaurants.   People want to eat at fancy restaurants but can only afford McDonald's valu menu items.  

Then on top of this...we seem to have a plethora of people producing hand crafted leather goods...all bidding on a small group of people who can afford  (if they wished to) their items.  

This is where craftsmanship and marketing and balance between labor costs and price comes into play.  

 

Price points matter or they don't.  Mass marketing price points matter.  Small volume artist pieces, the price point is not important...quality matters.  But style matters in the small volume pieces too.  And just because it is of sufficient quality to last decades...it will be tossed out like the rest of last year's fashions.  

And if your piece you are selling is last years fashion accessory....just saying.   

 

I happen to like quality and timeless pieces...ones that tell a story.  

[Bert03241]

its sad when you have 3 hrs of labor 2 to 3$ of materials $4.50 in postage plus ebay fee's on an item that should sell for 35 to 40 $ but you sell it for 24 because of all the cheap crap others are selling  and I end up making 12 bucks. Who in their right mind works for 3 bucks an hour?We do just because we love making this stuff.

[chiefjason]

3 hours ago, Bert03241 said:

its sad when you have 3 hrs of labor 2 to 3$ of materials $4.50 in postage plus ebay fee's on an item that should sell for 35 to 40 $ but you sell it for 24 because of all the cheap crap others are selling  and I end up making 12 bucks. Who in their right mind works for 3 bucks an hour?We do just because we love making this stuff.

 

Don't compete with cheap stuff.  Don't compete for cheap customers. 

I'm not the best at that but I price my stuff based on my time, experience, quality, etc.  Usually, if anyone takes the time to compare you can see the differences you are paying for.  I'm not going to give my time away.  I sell some of my simpler and cheaper stuff on ebay.  Occasionally someone tries to make an offer if I forget to remove that option.  I always turn them down.  They always get mad and don't order.  But I'm not accepting a low ball bid where I break even.  

Some customers you probably don't want.  It's not a popular opinion but over the years I've developed a sense for it.  And it usually involves trying to haggle down my price or asking for lots of options I'm not offering.  

[Handstitched]

@chiefjason This is from another thread:

https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/100306-lets-talk-about-sales-or-lack-thereof/page/3/#comments

scroll down to my last post.

HS 

[chuck123wapati]

i think its pretty much just what the person making the decision wants to make.no matter if filling a niche market or saving money on production.

When i design a product i make it like i want it i can add the cost of liners or not but maybe I don't want it lined just that simple IMO.

[chuck123wapati]

4 hours ago, chiefjason said:

 

Don't compete with cheap stuff.  Don't compete for cheap customers. 

I'm not the best at that but I price my stuff based on my time, experience, quality, etc.  Usually, if anyone takes the time to compare you can see the differences you are paying for.  I'm not going to give my time away.  I sell some of my simpler and cheaper stuff on ebay.  Occasionally someone tries to make an offer if I forget to remove that option.  I always turn them down.  They always get mad and don't order.  But I'm not accepting a low ball bid where I break even.  

Some customers you probably don't want.  It's not a popular opinion but over the years I've developed a sense for it.  And it usually involves trying to haggle down my price or asking for lots of options I'm not offering.  

I don't think you get the choice of who to compete with anymore so i price stuff as i see fit. Just yesterday i saw on my wifes FB page leather cc holsters popping up for about 20 bucks each because i searched them. I cant compete with them at all. Its plain however we now also compete with an algorithm, hundreds in fact, that uses in most cases fake bots and fake likes on social media to push its implied sales and quality.

[JLSleather]

$90 for THAT?@!

Amazing the things people will throw their money away on.  That's like $5 worth of leather and a few minutes labor.  Click it out like 10 per minute, a little cement to hold it for a minute while it's sewn.... ughhh...!!!!!

But, not my problem what the other guy does with HIS money, I suppose.

I like LINED myself.  There IS something to line with, ALL the time, in various thickness / stiffness / style to suit anything.  NO LEGIT reason NOT to line a project... usually always about COST (the MAKER'S profit, not actual cost).  Everybody wants to "maximize profit" and some can't see that lined DOES.

[dans79]

17 hours ago, mike02130 said:

  I read some shop's About sections and many describe their dissatisfaction in the corporate or I.T. world.  They start an Etsy shop, do social media and then open a Shopify site.  They lack the skills to make a quality product and lack the pride of doing excellent work.  They judge themselves by their "likes" on social media and their income.  Quality is not a barometer for their work.

I was trained as a physicist who specialized in software, and I have worked most of my professional career as a developer, And I love what I do. Imo, the number one issue with most of the people who get disillusioned with tech/IT, is that they shouldn't have been here in the first place. Some of them got sucked in by the allure of a well paying job. A lot of others I have known thought, it would be cool, because it's an office job with lots of down time, and a flexible schedule. However, Almost every single one of them had the same underlying issue, they don't want to learn new things, and they don't want to solve new problems every day. 

IMO, the out of hand social media stuff, and general lack of caring about anything, is a sign of poor parenting. I was raised to take pride in my work, whatever it is, and I Generally don't care what most people think one way or the other, as i was raised to know my worth and have self respect. I'm the type of guy who generally says we are either going to do it right, or we aren't going to do it at all.        

 

11 hours ago, Bert03241 said:

its sad when you have 3 hrs of labor 2 to 3$ of materials $4.50 in postage plus ebay fee's on an item that should sell for 35 to 40 $ but you sell it for 24 because of all the cheap crap others are selling  and I end up making 12 bucks. Who in their right mind works for 3 bucks an hour?We do just because we love making this stuff.

One of my other hobbies is woodworking, and knowing your worth is a topic that's routinely brought up in the community. Doesn't matter if you're a hobbyist who does a commission piece every year or two or a self employed bushiness owner. If you're cheap people who know you will always expect you to be on the cheaper side, and you will never get out from underneath the stigma. I've seen videos, and they usually offer a seminar or who at woodworking shows to go over the details, as they are talking about more than your time and the cost of the materials.      

 

3 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

I don't think you get the choice of who to compete with anymore so i price stuff as i see fit. Just yesterday i saw on my wifes FB page leather cc holsters popping up for about 20 bucks each because i searched them. I cant compete with them at all. Its plain however we now also compete with an algorithm, hundreds in fact, that uses in most cases fake bots and fake likes on social media to push its implied sales and quality.

Imo, The internet is a benefit or a hindrance depending on who you are. Back in the day if you wanted to sell something, you had to do it locally unless you where a large company who could afford regional or national level advertising. Thus, if you were in a saturated market you where going to have a real hard time staying in business.

Today anyone can set up an Instagram account to promote themselves, and an etsy or shopify account to sell their products to anyone anywhere in the world. The down side is that you need to be able to stand out from the crowed. You need to be able to promote yourself via social media with quality videos and photos, and you need the same for your website/store. Sadly I see a lot of people fall flat on their face in this regard, as they think having a website is all they need. Barry Kings website for example is atrocious. If you go looking for a Maul you will find tiny images and no details other then the diameter of the head and the weight. If you want to know how long the handle is, what it or the head are made out of you need to start googling. People reselling his products aren't any better either.


Imo, leather craft is also an industry where the customer needs to be educated to an extent, but very few people are doing it. If I started a leather goods company tomorrow I'd probably have some products that have multiple versions. Hand stitched and machine stitched, lined and unlined, normal and premium leather etc. But i would also have a place where potential customers could learn what those terms mean and what the benefits of one vs the other are.

I saw a very nice portfolio the other day on etsy, but the marketing was terrible. It had a few small pictures, and the description was something like hand made from full grain vegetable tanned shoulder leather. The first thing that came to mind, was your average person has no idea what any of that means, and they aren't going to spend the time to look it up.           

 


 

   

[Klara]

15 hours ago, JLSleather said:

$90 for THAT?@!

But you get the pen and the notebook with the cover! (actually, that's about $ 13.60, phew...)

Personally, I don't mind lack of lining, actually, it never occurred to me to line my checkbook cover etc. But I make them, I don't buy or sell them. 

Regarding the general situation, I think @mike02130 has nailed it.

 

[Spyros]

I didn't understand it either until I started making bags.  When you make bags you buy sides, a side will make you 2 bags if you're lucky, and then you end up with a whole bunch of offcuts that are too big to throw away and too small to make a bag with.  And now I have a pile of offcuts the size of a small island.

I reckon those hastily made small items, that's what it is, someone getting rid of this offcuts.  I have to do it too at some point, just design something cute and simple and make 100 of it as fast as possible.  Will I line them?  No.  Why?  Because I make bags, I don't want to waste time on something that is not my specialty.  I just want to get rid of offcuts as fast as possible and if I make a buck in the process then so much the better.

[Spyros]

If I make a notebook for myself or my wife I will handstitch it, line it, paint the edges, sand them to perfection and make them shine.  I just struggle to believe anyone would actually pay me fairly for that labour.

[Handstitched]

1 hour ago, Spyros said:

I just want to get rid of offcuts as fast as possible and if I make a buck in the process then so much the better.

I second that .  I make simple  ' one piece ' knife cases from belt off cuts and scraps , suitable for 'leatherman' type folding knives with ' expandable' gussets to fit an assortment of knives etc.  (I 'll post a pic later, happy to share.  )  I make belts mostly, and custom  h/d  molded knife cases  thats my ' bread & butter' .  The off cuts are too short for a dog collar ,  a bit too heavy for cat collars, and over kill for a book mark, they sometimes get cut up for  belt keepers or used for repairs etc.  , but I always end up with assorted off-cut lengths, not much good  for anything else. But I don't line any of my  knife cases or phone cases. Only my hand bags. 

HS

[fredk]

7 hours ago, Spyros said:

. . .   And now I have a pile of offcuts the size of a small island.

. . .  I have to do it too at some point, just design something cute and simple and make 100 of it as fast as possible. 

. . .  I just want to get rid of offcuts as fast as possible and if I make a buck in the process then so much the better.

Take your offcuts, cut them into two-finger sized pieces, doesn't matter what shape or colour or actual size, punch a hole and thread on to a cheap-ish* split ring. Even glue two odd shaped pieces together, doesn't matter that shapes don't match, even better that the two bits are different colours, thread on to a cheap* split ring. If you do shows or markets, throw these into a basket for $1 each.

People like the 'one-offs' and odd gewgaws to hang from their bags or phones

*cheap as in not expensive but of decent quality, can be bought 100 for just few a $$

Takes up little time to make, can be done whilst watching TV or a home based DVD movie. Almost more profit in these gewgaws than in regular skill made bags and such

[dans79]

10 hours ago, Spyros said:

If I make a notebook for myself or my wife I will handstitch it, line it, paint the edges, sand them to perfection and make them shine.  I just struggle to believe anyone would actually pay me fairly for that labour.

I got into leathercraft just so I could make a folio (i guess is the best word for it), because i couldn't find anything of the quality or style I wanted even up to the $1k range.

   

[Handstitched]

@Spyros 

These are my off cuts, some of them at least from my 'small island'    

Easy to make . The gussets are 1.5 mm veg .  You can use any thin leather  for the gussets. 

20 hours ago, fredk said:

People like the 'one-offs' and odd gewgaws to hang from their bags or phones

Had to search that, ' gewgaws' . Never heard it before.  Fancy word for 'useless s/crap',  aka ' dingle dangles' , thats what I call them  

HS

[dans79]

Here you guys go, this is a simple and I would assume very profitable way of disposing of scraps/off-cuts.

The fact that someone is paying $35 dollars for this is mind boggling. 
https://www.tannergoods.com/products/single-wristband-cognac-stainless

 

[Spyros]

1 hour ago, Handstitched said:

Had to search that, ' gewgaws' . Never heard it before.  Fancy word for 'useless s/crap',  aka ' dingle dangles' , thats what I call them  

HS

He's Irish, they say different stuff 

I've lived in Ireland (the other one in the south) for a year as an exchange student, and it's hard not to love the place.  I remember a lot of lingo but not gewgaws tho

[Handstitched]

17 hours ago, Spyros said:

I remember a lot of lingo but not gewgaws tho

The only Irish lingo I know is Guinness      

 

@fredk I made a few ' dingle dangles' ....or 'gewgaws'  . A simple round 1" cut out and some belt off cuts cut into  1" pieces from  veg scraps, a simple stamp pic, a hole , dyed, some antiques, and some bright colours , red ( red attracts) , blue etc. with a  15mm split ring. I'll sell them @ $2- ea. pocket money, loose change.   I'll see how they go this weekend  as a test, can only try eh. 

HS

[chiefjason]

On 5/3/2022 at 5:17 AM, Handstitched said:

@chiefjason This is from another thread:

https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/100306-lets-talk-about-sales-or-lack-thereof/page/3/#comments

scroll down to my last post.

HS 

 

Oh yeah.  Had a guy show me a mass produced holster he bought.  He wanted something similar but they did not carry the color he wanted.  He also wanted some tooling.  I quoted him $100 since there would be a decent amount of hand tooling, and that WAS my family friend, local, cash discount price.  He showed me the $42 price.  I showed him the made in Mexico sticker and told him if I could pay someone pennies to do the work mine would be $42 too.  He paid.