Carving question

[dikman]

I'm about to start on a couple of holsters, they'll be a modified Slim Jim style for my cap and ball revolvers. I intent to carve them (should be interesting ) and am still learning how to draw the pattern. They'll be lined, heavier leather on the outside and my question is- should I carve the outer piece before gluing on the liner, or glue the liner and then carve?

I can think of reasons to do it either way, but is one way better than the other?

[fredk]

Others will have far better advice on this cos I've never made a holster. I've just been reading up on how to make a Slim Jim and the advice is to glue the liner on with the outside leather curved. If you do it this way it would be awkward to cut and tool the outside, it would be easier if you do the tooling first then glue in the lining 

[dikman]

Yes, I've read the same thing about gluing the liner while curving the holster. I know from experience how much effort it takes to fold a lined holster, on the other hand gluing the liner first makes it easier to get a good bond as once it's tooled I can't use a hammer or roller to apply pressure to the two parts.

Hence my quandary.

[bland]

In my opinion, I would carve then line.  Carving and stamping requires a solid surface to get good impressions.  Then add the complexity of carving a rounded object.  A swell cover on a western saddle at least has a solid surface under the leather but you're carving at odd angles.  I'm thinking with a holster it might be more tricky to keep the solid surface where you need it.  

I think the bond for gluing will be ok as it will inevitably slightly bigger than it needs to be when you get get the holster closed up.  Just another opinion.

 

[tsunkasapa]

Tool first. When the leather is dry, tapping with a mallet or using a roller will not hurt it.

[chuck123wapati]

13 hours ago, dikman said:

I'm about to start on a couple of holsters, they'll be a modified Slim Jim style for my cap and ball revolvers. I intent to carve them (should be interesting ) and am still learning how to draw the pattern. They'll be lined, heavier leather on the outside and my question is- should I carve the outer piece before gluing on the liner, or glue the liner and then carve?

I can think of reasons to do it either way, but is one way better than the other?

yeesh thats a quandary alright

i think it depends a lot on the thickness of inner liner if your using very thin i dont see much problem at all doing it either way. But the question is how thick of a liner can you get away with before wrinkling inside I would tool a bit of scrap and run some quick tests to see if forming after gluing would cause wrinkling.

you may also want to think about skiving you outer piece along the bend before gluing in the liner , that may help reduce the problem with liner wrinkles and softening of the tooling impressions both are caused by the leather bunching up and or stretching out.

I would also love to find out your progress i have a slim Jim to make for my dads old shooter also but I've never lined them shh don't tell the guns they think they are nice and comfy living in the rough.

anyway i tool very deep then form my  unlined holsters because you lose some impression when forming around the bend, i expect it and tell my customers to expect it as well.

 

[Dwight]

If you do not want your liner to wrinkle . . . 

Tool first . . . LET IT DRY . . . LET IT DRY . . . LET IT DRY

Make up the inside piece . . . cut it about 1/2 inch too big all the way around . . . 

Bend your outside piece by rolling it on a tee shirt with a 3/4 inch or so dowel . . . bend it around the dowel . . . and by rolling it back and forth several times will cause it to take a curve.

Once you get the curve built into it . . . lay your liner inside it . . . take an ink pen and trace around the outside onto the liner . . . glue up the liner . . . glue up the outer shell . . . let them dry (using contact cement) until they just get past "tacky" dry . . . 

Lay the outside piece on some thing that will hold it steady  with both sides pointing up . . . 

Bend the liner in the middle . . . push it down into the center . . . taking your fingers on one hand . . . pinch it onto the sides of the outside piece . . . check your outside lines on the liner you marked . . . make sure you are down in where you should be . . . 

Use that same 3/4 inch dowel to roll the liner up against the outside piece by rolling it as you did earlier.  Trim . . . edge . . . bevel . . . sew . . . and admire your handiwork.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Chakotay]

My process is:  

1. Cut out leather pattern.

2. Carve and tool.

3. Dye.

4. Apply neatsfoot oil/conditioner.

5. Glue liner (if using anything thicker than say, 1oz leather for the liner material, glue "in the round". Otherwise the liner will wrinkle and generally look bad when folded.)

 

[KYCat]

1 hour ago, Chakotay said:

My process is:  

1. Cut out leather pattern.

2. Carve and tool.

3. Dye.

4. Apply neatsfoot oil/conditioner.

5. Glue liner (if using anything thicker than say, 1oz leather for the liner material, glue "in the round". Otherwise the liner will wrinkle and generally look bad when folded.)

 

In my experience of tooling to a given size, you may want to add a '1A' to the process. After cutting out the outer piece before tooling, I will put masking tape on the back to keep it from spreading out during/after tooling. Found out the hard way that the show side was too big for the liner.

YMMV

Good luck!

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by KYCat

[dikman]

Thanks everyone, it looks like carving first is the way to go. At this stage I don't intend to do any border stamping, although that may change, my thinking is that "simpler is better", with just a grooved edge around the carving. My first issue is to try and master the principles of Sheridan-style patterns. I have the template made up for the holster size now I have to design a pattern to fit (I didn't like my first attempt, it just didn't look right).

Going to be a slow job!

[JWheeler331]

I tool first then line it. 

[dikman]

[Samalan]

I was going to write this whole page on how to do it but did not have to Dwight said it all perfect!

[dikman]

This is my first attempt (probably not my last) at the carving pattern for my holster. The shaded area is for the belt loop, a normal Slim Jim would sit too high on the belt for Single Action shooting so I've modified it to have a slight drop-loop for my needs. What I would like are some critical comments on what's wrong with my design before I hack up the leather! I have minimal artistic ability so am struggling with this. My intention is to have a simple incised line to contain the design and the two ovals will have a simple cactus in it (my Single Action name is Cactus Jack Slade, so it seemed fitting to have a cactus on it ). 

 

[fredk]

as far as I can see the inner edges of the two cartouche with the cactus will be lost around the bend and they'll look bad. Do you really need a full design on the back? I think, you should get rid of the rear cartouche and have the main design fade away to nothing just beyond the bend, about 1/3 through the belt loop position [from the bend]. Move the front cartouche more to the edge and thin it and elongate it; overlap that upper leaf and lower flower petal; like its a concho applied over them. I'd move that border line along the edge closer to the edge. A few mm or bits of an inch can make a big difference

[dikman]

Thanks fredk, food for thought. The reason I continued the pattern onto the back is that there's no skirt to hide the back so to me it would look odd if the back is blank. The border edge is placed to allow for the stitching but could be moved out a bit more, I guess. And you may be right about getting rid of the rear cactus, it does make it look a bit "busy" (or crowded?).

My other alternative is to make a larger oval and cactus, do away with the rest of the carving and just stamp a border - but that seems a bit defeatist.

 

[chuck123wapati]

That is a nice design!

i always stop my designs in the middle of the holster right down the center of the front as no one sees the back and so much tooling definition is lost forming at the bend. BUT i see no harm in going all the way if you choose, not a thing wrong with that.

maybe over lap a couple of the leaves onto the cactus ovals and change up some of their sizes

I would suggest a compass and French curves to create the stems into more fluid turns.

Another trick i use is to scan a copy and shade in all the negative space. this will show you haw much background you will have and how it effects the design. i can see some large areas that could be filled like under the top flower and along the left edge

[JLSleather]

I like the pattern to go beyond the center line, but carving the 'back" or inside isnt' something I'd normally do.  And yeah - carve it, let it dry, then line it (on a curve).

[tsunkasapa]

I concur with Chuck. No need to do the back, and fill some of the larger 'open' areas with more scrolls and stem. Any cut lines on a top to bottom axis at the fold will have a tendency to pop open.

[dikman]

Glad I asked, I was having trouble viewing it objectively. Time to rework it a bit, methinks. 

Chuck, you obviously noticed I was having trouble with curves () so yeah, looks like a set of French curves will be a good investment.

JLS, that holster on the left is stunning! I can't get my head around how you drew the design!!!

[dikman]

V2! I got rid of the rear cactus, added extra leaves and redid some scrolls. The one above the cactus needs a bit of work still. I've decided to add an additional outline border and by bevelling the outside/inside of the two lines it should give me a pronounced border. I've also decided to go ahead with carving the back, as stated it's not necessary but it will give me a lot of practice at carving and if I start there any minor mistakes won't show. My intention is to use a background shader in all areas except inside the cactus, I'll leave that plain.

I still haven't worked out what colour it will be, I'm thinking chestnut but, of course, I don't have any of that dye.

 

[fredk]

Getting there. I'd still make the cactus cartouche longer with a bit more area between the cactus and the edge of the cartouche, especially at the top. When you cut the border its going to make the top of the cactus looked cramped. In art, things/people need a space to go 'into'; your cactus needs more space at the top above it for it to 'grow' into.

[dikman]

Yes, I can see that now that you've pointed it out. Or maybe I should get rid of it altogether and just put another, smaller, flower in there. Might look more balanced.

[dikman]

The more I looked at it the more I felt the cactus didn't fit, I felt I should either make it much bigger, to make it dominant, or get rid of it - so it's gone! A small flower and assorted leaves have replaced it, I still need to work on the scrolls a bit. I went out to get some Chestnut dye, but they didn't have any (do they even make it?) so I got some Russet, the colour sample in the shop looked good, unfortunately it's extremely faded, as I found out when I tried it at home! I'm wondering if I cut it 50:50 whether that will lighten it a bit?

Hmmm, does this pattern even work for a holster?

Edited May 23, 2022 by dikman

[chuck123wapati]

8 hours ago, dikman said:

The more I looked at it the more I felt the cactus didn't fit, I felt I should either make it much bigger, to make it dominant, or get rid of it - so it's gone! A small flower and assorted leaves have replaced it, I still need to work on the scrolls a bit. I went out to get some Chestnut dye, but they didn't have any (do they even make it?) so I got some Russet, the colour sample in the shop looked good, unfortunately it's extremely faded, as I found out when I tried it at home! I'm wondering if I cut it 50:50 whether that will lighten it a bit?

Hmmm, does this pattern even work for a holster?

yup i think it looks better also.