Chisel Size for Pocket Projects?

[Tugadude]

There are "flat" slanted chisels which are intended to penetrate fully through the leather.  This is just one example.  It is from KS Blade Punch and gets great reviews.  People should read the "sticky" topic I suggested in the "Sewing Leather" section.  

 

And this is the verbiage from their website.

 

About

KS Blade is a company that makes various leather craft tools such as stitching tools and punches for pleasure and convenience in making leather crafts.
We respect craftsmanship and strive to incorporate that value into our tools.
The KS Blade provides the best tools to help you bring the imagination to actual product.

–

Sharp blade of pricking irons allows to pierce straight through thick leather with little effort.
It leaves clear slits in the leather that make natural stitching.
You can customize the number of teeth and iron spacing.
We provide maintenance service of replacing the blade in case it gets damaged.

 

[DaveP]

I like stitching chisels/ irons. I did start with the Tandy Pro series 3.85mm. I now only use Kevin Lee stitching irons. They have a longer tine than most and no issues going through two layers of 8-10 ounce veg tan. Spendy...yes! But well worth the extra few dollars. 

 

(NEW) Kevin Premium Pricking Irons (French Style) – Kevin Leather Tools (kevinleetools.com)

 

 

[Tugadude]

7 minutes ago, DaveP said:

I like stitching chisels/ irons. I did start with the Tandy Pro series 3.85mm. I now only use Kevin Lee stitching irons. They have a longer tine than most and no issues going through two layers of 8-10 ounce veg tan. Spendy...yes! But well worth the extra few dollars. 

 

(NEW) Kevin Premium Pricking Irons (French Style) – Kevin Leather Tools (kevinleetools.com)

 

 

Those are great irons and the results speak for themselves.  Kevin Lee is a solid choice.

[chuck123wapati]

3 hours ago, Heartless said:

 

do you see problems with my stitch lines?? I dont.

 

 

You mean the chisels stitch lines don't you Yea they are almost perfect. never the less if you don't have an awl and don't use one you have no experience to say if they make the job easier or not. Don't get me wrong i have used chisels for many years, even before i had an awl too!!!  I used to think the way you did until I figured it out it but to each their own as you say.

[Burkhardt]

12 hours ago, Heartless said:

I 3D printed one - works great!

and if you have the diamond point chisels, you dont need an awl... to each their own. There is nothing wrong with my stitch lines, btw.. and I dont have problems finding the holes, either.

do you see problems with my stitch lines?? I dont.

 

the above bag was made using 4mm diamond point stitching chisels, and 0.8mm thread using John James harness needles as recommended by others.

the "flat" chisels are meant for lacing/buck stitching, not what you want for normal stitching.

the diagonal blade ones are pricking irons and are not meant to go all the way thru the leather, they are just for marking where stitching goes, you then use an awl to finish the holes while stitching.

The diamond point chisels are meant to go all the way thru the leather, and as such do not require an awl to complete the hole when they are used correctly.

i hope that helps clear up some of the confusion regarding the different types of chisels you see available

 

Not sure where getting your info but these show they're diagonal and are definitely meant to pound all the way through as is the ones below that aren't diamond shaped.

[Tugadude]

It has already been established that the statement about pricking irons was wrong.  Some are not made for piercing all the way through, but some are.

[Burkhardt]

50 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

It has already been established that the statement about pricking irons was wrong.  Some are not made for piercing all the way through, but some are.

And you're talking to who?

[Klara]

What I find interesting about chisels, pricking irons and awls is the price differences: The way I see it, people who want to punch the holes all the way through are looking for the "perfect" chisels/irons which are expensive. 

Whereas for only marking stitches, any cheap chisel will do but you need an awl and practice. A decent awl can be had for about $ 10 (plus sharpening equipment which you'll need sooner or later anyway), an excellent one (Barry King) was under $ 100 when I looked last. Which is still better than buying several sets (I don't always use the same stitch length) of expensive stitching chisels.

So for me it's a no-brainer: Cheap chisels + cheap awl + lots of practice = good results for little money. 

[Heartless]

7 hours ago, Burkhardt said:

Not sure where getting your info but these show they're diagonal and are definitely meant to pound all the way through as is the ones below that aren't diamond shaped.

look at the hole those make - diamond shaped - they most definitely ARE diamond chisels.

[Tugadude]

4 hours ago, Klara said:

What I find interesting about chisels, pricking irons and awls is the price differences: The way I see it, people who want to punch the holes all the way through are looking for the "perfect" chisels/irons which are expensive. 

Whereas for only marking stitches, any cheap chisel will do but you need an awl and practice. A decent awl can be had for about $ 10 (plus sharpening equipment which you'll need sooner or later anyway), an excellent one (Barry King) was under $ 100 when I looked last. Which is still better than buying several sets (I don't always use the same stitch length) of expensive stitching chisels.

So for me it's a no-brainer: Cheap chisels + cheap awl + lots of practice = good results for little money. 

The same could be said about most anything.  A Timex quartz watch is $20 and a Rolex many thousands.  The Timex tells time better, has a stopwatch, an alarm, dual time zones, etc., etc.  The Rolex also is going to cost thousands to maintain over the years.  And yet people flock to buy them to the point some models have lead times that reach into years.  

If someone has the means, why shouldn't they buy whatever they want?  The smaller makers do a lot of the work by hand, hence the higher cost.  Sadly, some Chinese companies are beginning to copy their designs and selling them at a fraction of the cost.  Are they as good?  In some ways yes, in some ways maybe not.  But they are cheap and serviceable.

If cheap and serviceable is your jam, go for it!  If you don't mind paying more for what you perceive as "worth it", then go for it!

[Tugadude]

6 hours ago, Burkhardt said:

And you're talking to who?

I was talking to everyone.  I was referring to the following, which is not completely accurate as I clearly showed.  I don't mean any offense, but when people try to eliminate confusion and then make a statement that isn't true, then it isn't helping anyone.

The subject of chisels, irons, pricking, stitching, etc. can be very confusing but doesn't need to be.  That's why I asked that a "sticky" topic be placed in the area where sewing leather is discussed.  I even invited Nigel Armitage, a well-known leatherworking expert to comment.  

The bottom line is there ARE companies who provide stitching chisels with slanted, flat teeth which are explicitly designed to penetrate fully through leather.  And there are others who provide similar irons and caution against doing anything but marking leather with them.  

Anyways, please take my comments in the spirit in which they were intended.  I'm not calling you or anyone out just because.  

What is frustrating is the misinformation that is spread on this and other forums by people who are "anti-chisel" and have never given them a chance.  They are welcome to think whatever they want, but fairness is important.

The fact is there are leather companies using chisels selling a lot of product and they have happy customers.  Sounds good to me.

9 hours ago, Burkhardt said:

the diagonal blade ones are pricking irons and are not meant to go all the way thru the leather, they are just for marking where stitching goes, you then use an awl to finish the holes while stitching.

The diamond point chisels are meant to go all the way thru the leather, and as such do not require an awl to complete the hole when they are used correctly.

i hope that helps clear up some of the confusion regarding the different types of chisels you see available

 

[DaveP]

34 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

The bottom line is there ARE companies who provide stitching chisels with slanted, flat teeth which are explicitly designed to penetrate fully through leather.  And there are others who provide similar irons and caution against doing anything but marking leather with them.  

Absolutely! The Kevin Lee irons are a perfect example of flat slanted teeth/ tines. If you enlarge the picture I posted above you will see they are sharpened. They are absolutely made for going through several layers of leather. I also use an awl to open up the hole a little for ease of saddle stitching. I use a diamond awl. 

[chuck123wapati]

20 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

I was talking to everyone.  I was referring to the following, which is not completely accurate as I clearly showed.  I don't mean any offense, but when people try to eliminate confusion and then make a statement that isn't true, then it isn't helping anyone.

The subject of chisels, irons, pricking, stitching, etc. can be very confusing but doesn't need to be.  That's why I asked that a "sticky" topic be placed in the area where sewing leather is discussed.  I even invited Nigel Armitage, a well-known leatherworking expert to comment.  

The bottom line is there ARE companies who provide stitching chisels with slanted, flat teeth which are explicitly designed to penetrate fully through leather.  And there are others who provide similar irons and caution against doing anything but marking leather with them.  

Anyways, please take my comments in the spirit in which they were intended.  I'm not calling you or anyone out just because.  

What is frustrating is the misinformation that is spread on this and other forums by people who are "anti-chisel" and have never given them a chance.  They are welcome to think whatever they want, but fairness is important.

The fact is there are leather companies using chisels selling a lot of product and they have happy customers.  Sounds good to me.

 

I don't think anyone is anti chisel, at least i didn't get that from any comments, how ever some realize they have their limits just like any tool. I'll be willing to bet almost everyone uses them in some form. Here's the deal for me i have chisels and i use them on every project if possible. With that being said some times the teeth just aren't long enough to go all the way through so guess what i need an awl. So i have learned that if my project is to thick i simply mark the outside layer then use an awl to push through the other two layers it saves well over an hour of chiseling through three layers separately then trying to line everything up then having to clean the holes anyway with an awl. its simple and fast, mark, use your awl and then sew. secondly i glue my edges so any chisel holes usually have some amount of glue up and need an awl run through it. Thirdly try doing a mitered edge on a round box with chisels. Simply some things just cant be done with chisels.

On misinformation its easy to do without being intentional. We all see what we do everyday and how we do it. Sure something can be made exclusively with chisels if its flat and thin enough but that's not all i see in my world.  I see weird shaped and thick stuff to often to just say buy these and your all set.  But i guess I'm different I don't want to, really I just cant its no fun to me, make cookie cutter projects and blindly follow Tandy patterns ( NOT THAT ITS A BAD THING)I like to learn and discover and explore and above all push myself. i haven't mastered awl sewing but I'm trying.  We just have to remember how big the leather world really is from watch straps to Saddles and there isn't just one way of doing things or one tool that will do it all..

[Tugadude]

Chuck, there are some who turn their noses up at stitching chisels, perhaps not in this thread, but in others I've read.  So that's what I am addressing with that comment.  

All tools have limitations and I have never said an awl is unnecessary, not by a long shot.  I have several and when I need them, I use them.  And they work great.  

I went back and read what I posted in this thread and I don't see any reason for someone to be offended.  If I'm wrong, I sincerely apologize as that wasn't my intent.  

 

[Tugadude]

The original poster was discussing chisels size as it relates to some specific project, a small EDC organizer.  For that project, chisels make perfect sense.  They will provide a quick solution and help to maintain straight lines with consistent stitches.  

After that, a person's taste will dictate what they prefer when it comes to spacing, thread size, color, etc.  We all have a particular appearance that speaks to us.  And they aren't all the same.  

[chuck123wapati]

51 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

Chuck, there are some who turn their noses up at stitching chisels, perhaps not in this thread, but in others I've read.  So that's what I am addressing with that comment.  

All tools have limitations and I have never said an awl is unnecessary, not by a long shot.  I have several and when I need them, I use them.  And they work great.  

I went back and read what I posted in this thread and I don't see any reason for someone to be offended.  If I'm wrong, I sincerely apologize as that wasn't my intent.  

 

to be anti chisel, anti awl, etc... would be anti tool which is kind of hypocritical considering the amount of tools we use in the craft. its just silly.

I wasn't offended my friend, by anyone's comments. just trying to clarify things a bit. And i have read those articles as well, there will always be people who consider their way of doing things as the only way to do things. Many people can and do sew with an awl exclusively and have mastered the process, they become purists in a sewing sense and rightly so I guess i haven't got that good and probably never will. They see using a chisel as adding steps and unnecessary time while beginners see them as saving time and frustration.  I still respect their right and ability to do so because i want to be that good too all the while trying to give sound accurate advise to folks who are just learning as i still am after many years.

[SUP]

As a newbie, for whom everything is still a learning experience I would like to put in a few words.

However the holes are made, pricking irons and awls, diamond chisels, etc. they are finally hidden by the thread. So it matters not a whit whether the holes are slits, angled diamond shaped holes or tunnels, for all I know. As long as the stitching is good, the holes are completely hidden.

Coming to how the holes are made; yes pricking irons and awls are the traditional way but now, there are diamond chisels  available to make this easier. So no reason not to use them, especially for us newbies because learning saddle stitching faster means that we can get onto projects we can be proud of instead of feeling frustrated because we could not stitch well. As a newbie, I am relieved that we have diamond chisels; I tried and could not do the pricking iron and awl method - awful lines. Maybe I will learn one day but until then, diamond chisels work well.

Coming to the brand to use. Yes the expensive ones would be wonderful to have but cheaper ones work well too. When newbies have so many things to buy, expensive chisels are not needed, in my opinion. I know because mine are cheap ones off Amazon and they work fine, not just adequate, fine. I use up to 6-7 oz leather and even through my newbie mistakes when I forgot a board and the tines went blunt, a little sharpening was all that was needed. So when I see newbies being advised to buy 'the best they can afford' or expensive brands, may I gently remind that with so much to buy, that is not necessary to start with or even later if not needed? 

When on a limited budget, it makes sense to choose where to economize. I was clueless when I bought an Amazon leathercraft kit but it was the best thing I did. I received everything  I need, from a cutting mat to 2 other boards for pounding and for use under chisels, from snaps to rivets, to thread to knives,  bevelers and I don't remember what else. All i needed to buy was a set of diamond chisels ($10 on Amazon) and I was set. So I got everything needed for basic leatherwork for about $100.00. Not the best brands, naturally but they all work fine.

 Since then, I have bought the same brand chisels, 3mm and 5mm. Inexpensive and effective. Will I buy Kevin Lee ones some day? Maybe. Maybe not. They are like designer handbags to me. Ordinary inexpensive bags carry my things as well, so why spend on designer ones? Not like shoes, where cheap ones pinch. So that is the difference.

There are many inexpensive brands of chisels which are fine. Whether chisels, or pricking irons or awls. Maybe they should be considered as well. Being able to afford does not mean spending blindly, in my opinion.

Just my two bits of what I learnt as a newbie. Hope I did not offend with anything I said here.

[Tugadude]

Holes have an impact on the finished look of stitching.  Round holes, diamond-shaped holes and slits all can impact the final appearance.  Along with the configuration of the hole (shape), the stitching technique has an impact.  

Nigel Armitage showed on a video that even with round holes it is possible to get a slight slant in your stitching.  Using the proper technique of course.  

The holes do matter.  And while on that subject, another thing that is sometimes mistaken is the technique used to sharpen awls.  I'm sure there is difference of opinion, but most of what I've read and seen indicates that the point of the awl should be very sharp, but the remainder of the blade not so much.  Polished is a better term, for the portion of the blade that extends from the tip and widens out.  The idea being the awl is sharp so that penetration is made easy, but then after that the slit is stretched and not cut.  This provides ample space for the thread and then the leather can close up around the thread.  An awl blade which is sharp all the way around will slice the leather, creating a slit as wide as the awl itself is.  That hole will remain and not close up as it would had it been stretched and not cut.  Details matter, and this is one area that I think is sometimes misunderstood.  

Personally, I like very slanted stitching and I try to achieve that the best I can on both the front and the rear of my projects.  There are techniques which can help, such as the "casting" technique.  Another thing that affects the final result is the overall thickness of leather and the tension you put on the threads.  

I see some kits such as wallet kits that come pre-punched with round holes.  Those tend to result in flat stitches, so they're not for me.  I don't use kits anyway, but my point is regarding the round holes, not the fact it is a kit.  

Many here like to use stitching grooves and those also impact the final look.  It can cause stitching to flatten out a little.  Not saying it looks bad, it doesn't, but it just does.  There are examples of this all over this forum if folks want to look.

Hey, we're all supposed to be learning.  I know I still am.  And I hope to for a long time.  

Edit:  I also should say that folks who want to see a number of stitching chisels and pricking irons in use should check out Nigel Armitage's videos on YouTube.  He does a thorough review on all of the popular ones and you can clearly see the impact they all have on the finished stitch.  Some are great, some are OK and there are things you can do to get the best out of all of them.  

I think he's done at least 20 different videos on chisels/irons.  Here's a recent one.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Tugadude

[SUP]

I was not very clear in my earlier post and if I mislead in any way, I apologize.

I agree. Slanted holes work the best. They look beautiful from both sides and the narrow cut keeps the thread more snugly than diamond cuts, although the leather does close around the thread in the latter as well. The pre-cut round holes, the worst. I learnt subsequently that with round holes, slanted stitches are possible with casting - as you @Tugadudesaid the Nigel Armitage video.

I have seen all the tutorials here, thank you to all the experienced people here who have guided so well about that - and I have learnt one thing. It is the technique which finally matters. Technique of saddle-stitching. 

Once experienced, as I see with all the experienced leatherworkers here, the type of holes do not matter AS much. They know the way to stitch, cast or not and so on and make beautiful items  That is what I meant when I said the type of holes do not matter - not to disparage but to say that there are ways to get around whatever the shape and direction of the shape of the holes, once saddle-stitching is understood - should have explained that way.

About Awls. I thought sharpening them was a difficult matter too, until I read a thread here which explained exactly how to do it. Was it you who explained @Tugadudeor someone else? I'm sorry I do not remember but It was so clearly explained, as you have done here too.

And finally about the price. In many threads, newbies are advised by some, not all, to buy either 'the best money can buy' or ' the best affordable' or specific expensive brands. That is good advise but sometimes, it is a bit premature. This was mainly my point in the earlier post. At the start, I too was obsessed with chisels which is why I commented. I wanted 'good' french chisels and as is my habit, explored brands and was undecided, until Uttam praised my work once and, looking at it with new eyes, I realized I was getting the results I wanted with my inexpensive, diamond chisels, easily at that. That is why I spoke up about not needing expensive chisels. 

One thing; when I said 'kit' I did not mean  ready made kits of cut leather with a few tools, to just stitch together to make purses etc. I meant the leatherwork kit which only contains all the tools for leatherworking. If you enter the words' leatherworking kit' you find dozens on Amazon.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by SUP

[Tugadude]

37 minutes ago, SUP said:

One thing; when I said 'kit' I did not mean  ready made kits of cut leather with a few tools, to just stitch together to make purses etc. I meant the leatherwork kit which only contains all the tools for leatherworking. If you enter the words' leatherworking kit' you find dozens on Amazon.  

 

I understood that.  My comment was about the kits that many outlets sell where the holes are already provided.  They tend to be round, and to me, that limits what can be done with them.  

[SUP]

I agree  Some of the patterns we get online are the same, but I use a diamond chisel instead of the punch recommended. 

[fredk]

2 hours ago, SUP said:

However the holes are made, pricking irons and awls, diamond chisels, etc. they are finally hidden by the thread. So it matters not a whit whether the holes are slits, angled diamond shaped holes or tunnels, for all I know. As long as the stitching is good, the holes are completely hidden.

Not necessarily, the size of the hole must match the size of the thread and the size of the thread must match the size of the hole.

On this thread the tools we are discussing cut a slit in the leather, they do not remove any leather, but still if the slit is too big for the thread some of the slit will still be seen.Ideally the thread should fill or just over fill the hole. The leather will grip the thread and close over it.

Other tools which make holes for sewing remove leather and if the thread is too small the hole will always be seen. Even when the the thread is the same size as the hole the hole will be seen. The thread needs to be oversize to fill the hole as the leather will not close up to grip the thread unless it is forced to do so

On these wee coin purses I use a punch to make the sewing holes. It removes leather, about 0.8mm diam hole. I used 1mm waxed cord to sew. The thread is too big for the hole and needs tugged through. It hides the hole pretty well

On this Tandy kit the pre-punched holes are too big for the thread or lace  and the sewing holes still show and also give an uneven 'jagged' looking sewing line(photo picture taken from an Amazon listing) 

 

 

 

 

[Tugadude]

Just to be clear, this is the sort of kit I'm talking about.  The holes come pre-punched.

[SUP]

@fredk I really put my foot in my mouth, didn't I? 

I  meant when I said that the holes are hidden, about the lovely work on this site, from experienced leathercraftsmen who know how to select the correct thread and of course the holes are hidden. Something a newbie aspires for. 

You have explained it here so clearly. Should have put it all into words but then I thought, too long, so did not. 

And I agree about ready-made kits. Have never tried them though  - it feels like cheating when everything is provided ready cut and punched. I see that the holes remain.

 

 

[SUP]

@Tugadude Yes I see. Everything ready and, like I mentioned to @fredk I feel its like cheating when everything is cut and punched and ready to sew.

Finally, nothing quire like a pattern,  piece of leather, some cutting tools and chisels to work with. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by SUP