And they call themselves leather workers

[Cumberland Highpower]

16 hours ago, Dwight said:

I won't give the location . . . but I was in two different "leather" shops last week . . . 

Much of it was vinyl glued to fabric to stiffen it . . . 

Leather coats were absolute junk . . . my Pakistan cafe racer jacket I paid a hundred and a half for . . . was three times the quality of that junk . . . and they wanted twice my Pakistan price.

Belts looked like that pressed together and glued stuff from China . . . single layer . . . with buckle . . . no design . . . 26 bucks each and up

I was almost ashamed to mention in that company I work in leather . . . afraid someone would mistake me for them . . . 

May God bless,

Dwight

I kinda agree but only to a point  I don't know if you're a hobbyist or make a living from working leather? I'd gamble from a $20 retail vinyl "leather" belt the profit margin is probably 10%.     A real shop not only has to buy material and hire extremely expensive labor, but  make machinery payments, payroll (Including the complete battery of payroll taxes, workers comp etc).  Insurance, commercial rent or loan repayments, utilities and local real estate taxes.....When that's all said and done, then Uncle Sam hits you with income tax. 

They might only have $2 in materials up front, but don't let that lead to any conclusions. 

I don't think it's unreasonable really.  $26 vinyl belts do have a market and it's a pretty big one.   Regarding jackets, I'm not sure what to say?  You're a purchaser of a $150 Paki import jacket.  How is an American shop with huge overhead supposed to compete with that?   Would you be willing to pay $350-450 for a comparable one, made in USA?   Maybe we already have an answer?    Not trying to be combative, just realistic here.

Pakistani make what? $200 a month?  $6 a day?  They couldstart the day sitting on the ground and stitch and jacket together with a needle by hand and have it done by quitting time.  The labor cost assembling even by hand would be $6.   $6 might cover someone's cigarette break in Ohio?

Edited September 10, 2023 by Cumberland Highpower

[Handstitched]

Popcorn on stand-by 

HS

[chuck123wapati]

4 minutes ago, Handstitched said:

Popcorn on stand-by 

HS

lol at least its not me this time.

[Klara]

4 hours ago, fredk said:

...

B. Many years ago now, about 15, I was in touch with my TSO;,  In the EU 'Leather' is no longer just the material made from the skins of animals, its just a describer. In the same way 'cloth' can be used for wool, cotton, silk

I've just looked up the legal definition of leather (cuir) in France,  and it is "tanned animal skin". French trade standards recognise leather and split leather, with or without coating. Terms like simili cuir, faux cuir are forbidden if it's Vinyl, it must be called vinyl (assuming that's a valid term, I'm too tired to now look up legal definitions of man-made materials). The species that was skinned needs to be identified as well. 

Sounds pretty good, but there's two problems: Footwear is excluded from this legislation and private sellers don't know or don't care. I wanted to buy a second hand leather sofa, but I gave up because just as in Johanna's yard sale most ads were for plastic ones.

 

[Dwight]

3 hours ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

I kinda agree but only to a point  I don't know if you're a hobbyist or make a living from working leather? I'd gamble from a $20 retail vinyl "leather" belt the profit margin is probably 10%.     A real shop not only has to buy material and hire extremely expensive labor, but  make machinery payments, payroll (Including the complete battery of payroll taxes, workers comp etc).  Insurance, commercial rent or loan repayments, utilities and local real estate taxes.....When that's all said and done, then Uncle Sam hits you with income tax. 

They might only have $2 in materials up front, but don't let that lead to any conclusions. 

I don't think it's unreasonable really.  $26 vinyl belts do have a market and it's a pretty big one.   Regarding jackets, I'm not sure what to say?  You're a purchaser of a $150 Paki import jacket.  How is an American shop with huge overhead supposed to compete with that?   Would you be willing to pay $350-450 for a comparable one, made in USA?   Maybe we already have an answer?    Not trying to be combative, just realistic here.

Pakistani make what? $200 a month?  $6 a day?  They couldstart the day sitting on the ground and stitch and jacket together with a needle by hand and have it done by quitting time.  The labor cost assembling even by hand would be $6.   $6 might cover someone's cigarette break in Ohio?

No argument with much of what you said . . . just one to mention . . . I bought the jacket from Pakistan . . . simply because it was the only place I could find that had the style jacket I wanted . . . AND . . . would make the alterations I wanted.  I happen to be one of those long legged, long armed hillbillys that's hard to fit in anything mass produced.

I simply could not find one here in the states . . . at any price point.  So in that case it is you do what ya gotta do to get what you want.

My main gripe was the advertisement of "leather goods" in the stores I visited . . . and a huge bunch of it was vinyl/cloth leather look alike.  The leather jackets they were offering did not have an origin tag . . . but they were sloppy made . . . positively ugly . . . and there was no one there to say "how can we get you what you want" . . . it was more "thats what we got . . . buy it or leave" . . . 

The belts were imitation hand made . . . I would not have worn one to a dog fight . . . and like I said . . . there were many of the ones made from glued and pressed leather remnants . . . started at 26 bucks and they went up from there.

I think they were trying to interest the "wanna be" cowboy / cowgirl crowd . . . as some of them were just audacious in their design . . . 

And I am . . . halfway between a hobbyist and making a living . . . it's a part time job where I make custom holsters, belts, knife sheaths, ax sheaths, and other stuff.  I've repaired saddles, made halters, made chinks and chaps,  even made a USMC style hat from leather.  It is a one man operation . . . but if I had started this a number of years back  . . . I can see myself with 2 or 3 or 4 trusted employees . . . earning a living with leather . . . together.  And you are totally correct in the description you gave of that gambit . . . tough sledding for sure.

But in the end . . . big company or small . . . one man or many . . . giving the customer a product that could possibly go down to his grandchildren . . .because it was well designed . . .. well made . . . etc. . . . that's my goal in leatherwork.  

Two holsters went out of here Saturday . . . I have no doubt that at least children will inherit them . . . and they could easily be passed on to the grandchildren.  Another one and a belt to match will go out sometime this week . . . with the same perceived destination.

May God bless,

Dwight

 

 

 

 

[SpruceMoose]

I should add to what i previously said, i have nothing against mass production or folks who run larger leather businesses. I more have an issue with the lying that is coming along with it in many instances. Something something 'usa' darling western leather resellers claiming they are the individual artists, local handmade small mom and pop business. You're a reseller, stand by it no problem, don't lie.

[SUP]

The 'high end' things.. like handbags are just as bad. The bags feel so plasticky and have logo prints on them, so many of them. And colors and patterns which also feel plasticky. Yet many say they are leather. What type of leather, the quality  is anybody's guess. Yet they charge thousands for them. I understand all that was said about the expenses involved in producing them in the West and while there are some brands,  whose prices are high but reasonable, others are not. No bag is worth the thousands they charge. Yet, people pay for the brand and then, most often, they advertise that brand for free, with the logo all over that bag! LOL. Smart marketing on the part of those companies I must say. The companies get paid for the bags and get free advertising as well.

Saffiano, the very popular leather used in high end goods is an example of the plasticky feel of the leathers. I got some and am wondering what to do with it. 

[Handstitched]

11 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

lol at least its not me this time.

I have some mixed  nuts if you like them  lol  

[chrisash]

9 hours ago, SUP said:

The 'high end' things.. like handbags are just as bad. The bags feel so plasticky and have logo prints on them, so many of them. And colors and patterns which also feel plasticky. Yet many say they are leather. What type of leather, the quality  is anybody's guess. Yet they charge thousands for them. I understand all that was said about the expenses involved in producing them in the West and while there are some brands,  whose prices are high but reasonable, others are not. No bag is worth the thousands they charge. Yet, people pay for the brand and then, most often, they advertise that brand for free, with the logo all over that bag! LOL. Smart marketing on the part of those companies I must say. The companies get paid for the bags and get free advertising as well.

Saffiano, the very popular leather used in high end goods is an example of the plasticky feel of the leathers. I got some and am wondering what to do with it. 

These top end bags etc are made exceedingly well, regardless of the material, its the look and brand people buy, agree no bag is worth that amount of money , but women buy to impress other women with the fact they can afford it. just like men by top end sports cars and sell them after a few years with maybe a couple of thousand miles on the clock, for show not use. 

[SUP]

@chrisash, I know. It is always 'keeping up with the Jones'. Silly really.  And sure, most are well made, machine made, remember, but still plasticky and give such a skewed view of what leather is, to the general public.  If those materials use so much plastic, might as well call them 'vegan' leathers and use actual vegan leathers, which are just synthetic material anyway, what we used to call Rexene. Just because the companies selling those leathers say there is good leather under there somewhere, can one trust them? 

My issue is, there are plenty of handmade leather items out there that are very well made as well. Go to any thrift store or consignment store and you will find plenty. The more expensive ones are the branded ones of course, but check in the cheaper sections and you find beautifully made, good leather items - bags, belts, even some footwear -  going for a song because they do not have  brand names attached. Lovely leather, great workmanship but kept alongside plain, cheap plastics, not even the reasonably well made 'vegan' leather ones.  That is what really gets to me. Beautiful work by craftsmen which are ignored and often, not even recognized. See, pay less for handmade items than for those branded items I can understand, not even recognizing them as something good but equating them to cheap, plastic, is bothersome to me.