Stitch strength heresy - Lock vs Saddle

[toxo]

A bit of a useless debate IMO and one that doesn't seem to be taking usage into account. I've never known a thread that simply holds two pieces of leather together to break no matter how it's sewn (bonded polyester/nylon). Can you snap a piece of V69 with your hands? If you can you have thick skin. Thread used under high stress conditions is different and is usually sewn inside a channel to avoid abrasion.

As dikman said, I think a certain amount of ego comes from the S/S camp but you can say that about quite a lot of leathercraft and there's nothing wrong with it as long as it's not part of a strength debate.

[fredk]

You are forgetting breakage due to abrasion on the thread. In my history group I had experience of that. The chaps used to do several very active  live steel fight displays during a day. I had shoes to resew/repair. The stitching holding the soles to the vamp often got abraded until they broke. On those made by one 'expert' and hand sewn using saddle stitch the sole came loose and I could quickly repair it on the spot and have the owner back into the fight. Those sewn by another 'expert' when the thread broke most of the sole came away from the vamp*. A repair was not possible as quickly.

* on one occasion the sole came away, flapping loose during a fight causing the owner to miss his footing. Only the fighters' skills stopped there being a bad incident

[Dwight]

Everyone has a  two arm pits . . . as well as a couple of opinions . . . and depending on the circumstances . . . they all stink.

But in this debate . . . the saddle stitch will always be the better route . . . simply because even when one thread breaks . . . the other "may" still hold . . . any "non" saddle stitch does not have that backup.

If the saddle stitch is done correctly with an overhand knot being tied in every hole . . . it is not only very time consuming . . . but it is also much stronger than any of the others.

To say differently is only posting an ugly and stinky opinion . . . because it simply is a statement that does not hold water.

Anyone with two pieces of leather . . . some thread . . . and two needles . . . can do the saddle stitch . . . and any or all others . . . and then put them all to a series of beat down tests . . . the saddle stitch will be the last one to give away . . . and that goes double if the thread was both waxed and the overhand knot tied at each stitch hole.

May God bless,

Dwight

[AlZilla]

15 minutes ago, Dwight said:

But in this debate . . . the saddle stitch will always be the better route . . . simply because even when one thread breaks . . . the other "may" still hold . . . any "non" saddle stitch does not have that backup.

However, if I have 2 stitch lines of equal length, the same spi and the same strength of thread, they have the same breaking breaking strength.

I can see the argument that the saddle stitch might be more durable in the face of 1 broken thread. But 2 seams of the same length, same thread, same SPI and length should be equally strong.

I'm not campaigning against the saddle stitch. I just don't see the persistent argument that it's "stronger". I think it's the same.

[CdK]

Same difference, I remember my late maternal grandfather, a blacksmith,  rant on about the inferior electrical arc welding replacing hot rivets in rail car manufacture and that they were "weak". I dared point out to him that the liberty ships were welded together, once...

That being said, I have seen many ugly leather pieces with large holes punched and overly thick and garishly colored threads used. These makers also tend to be vocal about how inferior machine stitching is. YMMV

[bruce johnson]

2 hours ago, CdK said:

 

That being said, I have seen many ugly leather pieces with large holes punched and overly thick and garishly colored threads used. These makers also tend to be vocal about how inferior machine stitching is. YMMV

And the problem is - you see more of it all the time!! I get the question at least once weekly at least - "Do you have any stitching punches?". Ummm not often but what I want to say is that I have sharp awl blades and hafts, stitch markers, and harness needles in all sizes available 24/7. Much like the saying that "PVC pipe makes anyone a plumber", stitching punches make anyone a hand stitcher. Large holes for easier passage of needles and perhaps the biblical camel, holes that don't close back up, mismatched needles and small thread sizes, and there is no leather to thread friction to hold stitches. Machine sewing beats that all day long. Good hand stitching with tight holes, even spacing front and back, and that is some kind of pretty! Hand stitching well is an acquired and practiced skill for sure, but once a person has it - you have that skill for life.  

    In reality - there are places you can't machine sew and there are places that hand stitching makes no difference. The best is the person who can both hand stitch well with awl/needles and set up a machine to sew a nice tight stitch. Then decides which is more appropriate and gets it done. 

[jcuk]

A few months ago I had a local tack shop who I do so repairs for, gave me two head collars to restitch as the stitching had failed on both of them. He had sold one the customer who brought the first one back so he replaced it like for like, low and behold the second one had the same problem again brought back again, not sure if he gave them their money or what. Both were fancy head collars and machine stitched with in my opinion with to light thread, anyway i took them to my workshop as I was looking at them the stitching was unravelling before my eyes, that would never happen no matter how badly a saddle stitch had been done, even using a lighter thread. So the question is a saddle stitch stronger than machine stitch - it's a yes from me. Also in the saddlery trade you will find there are certain things that will only be hand stitched for  safety reasons, that said a machine is a great time saver when time is money and for certain things its can save you hours which is a good thing for the right time and piece of work required to use a machine.

 

Hope this helps

JCUK 

[CdK]

3 hours ago, bruce johnson said:

<snip>

    In reality - there are places you can't machine sew and there are places that hand stitching makes no difference. The best is the person who can both hand stitch well with awl/needles and set up a machine to sew a nice tight stitch. Then decides which is more appropriate and gets it done. 

Exactly, do what method is appropriate for the task at hand and do it correctly else it is a failure.