What makes you describe a piece of work as 'well finished'

[UKRay]

This is a thread I've been meaning to start for a while as I'm only too well aware of my own shortcomings when it comes to finishing things to a really high standard. Don't get me wrong, I make and sell a fair bit of stuff but sometimes I feel that with a little more 'finesse' - or whatever it takes - I could have made something 'special' but instead it only turned out okay.

This is not about design (or maybe it is?) - I think this is all about finishing and presenting work in the best way possible. You know the sort of thing I mean: attention to detail, all the loose threads clipped off, burnished edges and the buckles given a final polish. I know that the saddle makers and western leather guys are particularly good at this sort of thing - and so is Tina, her work always has something really special about it. Does anyone have a check list?

Help me here folks... Imagine you are going to buy a finished piece of leatherwork:

1. What sort of things do you look for?
   
2. What do you think goes to make up a well finished and beautifully presented piece of leather work?
   
3. What do you think is the most important thing to get right?
   

Edited April 14, 2009 by UKRay

[Shorts]

The details matter. The smallest cuts, bevels, edges, folds, stitches - everything. I guess someone would call it a perfectionist mentality. I say the results are a reflection of me . If I look at something and I say "I could have done that better" then....well...not impressed. I like to see the attempt to put the very best foot forward. Growing up, in sports and life, doing 'my best' included executing the good plans. Having a good plan isn't enough, you have to execute that plan. Give 110%.

As I said, details matter.

[hidepounder]

I'm with Monica 100% on this. For me there is no such thing a good enough! I have NEVER been satisfied with anything I've done. I know that once I'm satisfied, I will not progress any farther. If something is not the best it can be, then it's not good enough! Attention to detail is deifintely the issue. It can always be smoother, cleaner, brighter, deeper, finer, more square, round, even....well you get the idea. IMHO if it can be improved upon, then that should be the standard. I can't tell you how many pieces I finish...even now...that I hate because I don't think they're good enough, or because I can't get past some flaw that I know I could have avoided. I think everything I do stinks, and I really try to improve on the next one! I think the process of improving or growing is never ending. Geez....that's depressing!

Someone should probably take my knives off my bench for a little while....

Bob

[Shorts]

I think the process of improving or growing is never ending.

Bob

Which is why we are going to live forever!

[flyingcuda]

i know i am my own worst critique....i know i have a very long way to go..pretty much a beginner... how do you know if what you do is good? i love my friends and family dearly...but... i don't know that they trust my reaction enough to be brutaly honest with me... i keep telling them...be honest...it's the only way i can improve. i know there were many pieces that i can see the flaws like flashing beacons...and when i point them out they say i wouldnt have seen that if you didnt show me. or they say i am too picky. i know if someone makes something for me by hand...i certainly don't pick it apart, i love that they wanted to create something with thier hands for me. my hubby says that with hand made..you want some flaws...makes every piece unique and people can see it's not machine produced. still doesnt make me go any easier on myself. i'm just glad that i get so much pleasure while i'm working on the project. maybe thats what i need to guage my performance on..not so much the end...but how much i enjoyed doing it? so i guess as i type this...my most important thing to get right...is keeping it fun and challenging

[Tina]

I have NEVER been satisfied with anything I've done. I know that once I'm satisfied, I will not progress any farther. If something is not the best it can be, then it's not good enough! Attention to detail is deifintely the issue. It can always be smoother, cleaner, brighter, deeper, finer, more square, round, even....well you get the idea.

Bob

I'm totally with Bob:-)

In a way I hope I'll never get to be "finished" either, then all this will most likely make me too bored and I'll give it up. Somehow for me the challenge is half the thrill, it has to be intereting in some ways to get it going, difficult enough so I don't know the end until I'm there etc.

And Ray... Great Thanks for the confindence in my work *S*

[rustyriggin]

Thanks everyone!! I feel so much better now, I can't stand the stuff I turn out, but folks brag about it, and say they love it. I see junk cause I see every flaw ( cause I put it there ). It's nice to know I'm not the only one that does this, thats why I don't post any pics, I'm ashamed of the stuff. It is nice though when people ask if something I made is machined or done by hand cause they can't tell. I posted a pic of a holster in critique my work, and only got 1 small sugestion, so I guess thats good. Rus

[BearMan]

Hmmmm,,, It seems that we have a LOT of like minded people here!! Is it that we are always looking to do things,,,, Just That much Better everytime we pick up a tool. Or,,, is it the "perfectionistLeatherist" disease?? I know that I always find, & know where alllllll the areas where I Really need to work on. But Alas,,, it seems like even with the best of intentions,,, I have a Brain Fart,,, & do it again!! Seems like I just went through that,,, with the background on a recent project. So,,, even though "perfection" is something, I'd like to be able to do,,,, I know that until I can walk on water,,, it just Ain't gonna happen,,, no matter how hard I try. ( Ohhh well,,, at least I'm good lookin',,, hehehe NOT!! Ed

[Hilly]

I'm with Monica 100% on this. For me there is no such thing a good enough! I have NEVER been satisfied with anything I've done. I know that once I'm satisfied, I will not progress any farther. If something is not the best it can be, then it's not good enough! Attention to detail is deifintely the issue. It can always be smoother, cleaner, brighter, deeper, finer, more square, round, even....well you get the idea. IMHO if it can be improved upon, then that should be the standard. I can't tell you how many pieces I finish...even now...that I hate because I don't think they're good enough, or because I can't get past some flaw that I know I could have avoided. I think everything I do stinks, and I really try to improve on the next one! I think the process of improving or growing is never ending. Geez....that's depressing!

Someone should probably take my knives off my bench for a little while....

Bob

Hey Bob, next hundred times or so you feel your project stinks, you can just send it to me and I'll make sure it doesn't hurt your eyes any more Seriously.

[Suze]

Well Ray

If I am buying a piece of handcrafted "whatever"

first it has to call my name. Which lately is not hard to do (I want one of just about everything on this forum)

I want pride in workmanship to show in the item, well designed - form and function are important - a purse should have a top that you can get your hand in, belts shouldn't be made for "runway models"

it must look as good in my hand as it did from across the room. It was the design that drew me in, but if it is poorly executed or sloppy, I am not going to be reaching for my money. As you said threads clipped, edges burnished, the little things. Oh and if it is dyed in a pattern (like a celtic knot) no runs. Is it even from side to side. ragged cuts are a turn off.

Consistency of work - is it all "even" or does it look like the items on the table were made by several people of varying skills. (if there are things that just won't sell - look at them with a "new eye" and the question "would I buy this?" If the answer is NO - does it still belong on your table? Or should it go to dusty corner of the workshop to make room for other things that ARE selling)

If you are trying a new to you skill, I feel it is ok to put it out and mark it a "prototype" and get feedback. Do you have people looking at it and going "when are you going to start selling THIS" or are they looking at it and "sniffing" the former says to start making it, the latter says that it is not ready for the table YET and it needs a bit more pratice/polish/tweaking to be the best it can be.

Presentation on the table is also key to selling. A jumble of purses in a pile is not appealing. You put a lot of work into them, treat each one like the "Crown Jewels" Racks to display "little things" like keyfobs (which can be simply cardboard coverd in cloth - or a bullentin board, also cover the cork with cloth) I see a display set up as another extention of "pride in workmanship" The item that costs a few dollars should be treated the same as the one that costs a hundred - I won't root in a box of keyfobs. Not worth the bother to me, I have a keychain. But displayed so that the design shows - I will probably buy the one with the unicorn head one it (I'm a "dumb" girl what can I say >grin<)

to give you all a little example of what a change in display can do - My Rennisance Group did a street festival, among other things that we sold were "Maid Marion Halos" I am sure that most of you have seen little girls running around with a piece of tinsel on their head with some curling ribbon hanging off of it.....we sold them for one dollar. The first year we didn't sell very many - we had them hanging on some hangers around the booth. The next year we sold over 400 of them - the change? We stood on the outside of our booth with an armload waveing them around. Two people sold that many- we got them out from the jumble of the booth and where all the little girls could SEE them better. (DADDY - Daddy - pleassssse)

But the best display in the world is not going to make up for shoddy workmanship.

Pride in your own apperance - Ok this is a stretch, but hang on with me. If you are sloppy in apperance at a show. I see that as a sign of "sloppy" in more than dress. dress neat and clean (even if it is jeans and a t-shirt) - TRY to get the dye out from under your fingernails. .....

(we have a person who sells leather at some events that doesn't WASH often enough - I know he lost sales because he STINKS and nobody wants to be in his "aura" - and since our shows are not juried, we can't keep him out >sigh<)

I could go on and on and on, but right now if I don't go feed the cat she will dry up and blow away >giggle<

If you have read this far thank you for reading the ramblings of a person on the "other side of the cashbox"

[HorsehairBraider]

Someone said something to me that really changed the way I view my work. I had just done a sculpture, and thought it looked "stupid".

The thing that really got to me was, someone said "If you died today, this would be the best thing you ever made!" She was trying to be encouraging, but I was absolutely horrified. *THAT* was going to represent my body of work?! I sure as *HECK* did not want that! So, I try not to sell stuff unless I am OK with it being the best thing I ever made, should I drop dead on that day. If you look at my website, you'll see I make a big deal about not braiding mane hair. It does not produce a good product... the hair is of a different structure than tail hair, and is simply not up to my standards. I am not interested in creating work not up to my standards.

Even so, you still see some improvement over the years. That is OK to me. I can only do the very best that I can do, on that day. Maybe tomorrow I'll have more knowledge and skill. (Gosh, I sure hope so!) There is always room to grow and improve.

As far as what I notice if I buy something... the first thing I look at is the quality of the leather. Pretty tough to make a good product out of poor quality materials... Then I look at details, such as stitches per inch, and straight stitch lines etc. It's funny, but if some of these details are there it's very reassuring... it says the person has a clue and knows enough to do all these things, and makes you feel like they got the rest of it right too.

It also makes me feel good if they signed it or put their maker's mark on it. I wish I could figure out a way to sign horsehair...

[kevinhopkins]

Hi.. There's a lot of great answers on this one. I think most folks would agree on whether a project is well finished or not... But I think that there is something that prevents and hinders many beginners and intermediate crafters from being able to produce a well finished pc. Proper equipment. Whether it's a good quality hand tool, or an actual machine, it can make all the difference. I'm privileged to work along side a master leather crafter (Bo Riddle) and his use of machinery and various hand tools is a joy to behold! And his work speaks for itself.

Kevin

[hidepounder]

Hi.. There's a lot of great answers on this one. I think most folks would agree on whether a project is well finished or not... But I think that there is something that prevents and hinders many beginners and intermediate crafters from being able to produce a well finished pc. Proper equipment. Whether it's a good quality hand tool, or an actual machine, it can make all the difference. I'm privileged to work along side a master leather crafter (Bo Riddle) and his use of machinery and various hand tools is a joy to behold! And his work speaks for itself.

Kevin

I'm with you all the way on this, Kevin. You HAVE to have the right tools to complete the job. I'm working on a belt pattern right now, that I've been developing...it has some nickel and dime size flowers on it...and no matter how many times I tool it, or how how hard I try, I don't have the micro size tools that are necessary to make the pattern be all that it can be! I'm going to have to table this pattern until I can accumulate those specialty tools...consequently, that pattern will not leave here until that time. Having the skills is only half the battle!

[Tkleather1]

shoot bob are you selling any of your "skills" cause I could sure use them. I can save to buy the tools,I just dont know how to properly use half of em anyway, I need help with the refining and just flat learning the right and wrong way of doing things and there arent anyguys in my part of the world that I can go and sit in with that are near as good as I hope to be someday.

Edited April 15, 2009 by Tkleather1

[JohnBarton]

I am adding my reply before reading everyone else's. That way I get my thoughts out of the way without being influenced by other's criteria.

For me the very first thing that I look for in our own pieces as well as others is that everything is lined up as it should be. If it's supposed to be centered and aligned then it better be or I am going off like a rocket. Pieces that are supposed to be symmetrical should have a balanced flow to them.

The next thing I look for is the quality of the sewing. Are all the lines straight and properly spaced from the edges? Is the stitch length consistent, are the threads tight? No missing stitches. No loose ends.

Then I check that all measuring marks are gone. I hate to see marks left on a piece.

Then I check that all the snaps are set right that they work as they should, that rivets are set right and are set properly without dents and dings.

Then I check the zippers to make sure that they work right and are well sewn.

Then I check the edges and make sure I am happy with how they are burnished.

If all that checks out then I am happy with the piece.

I wish I could say that I always only let "perfect" pieces out the door but in fact I will let pieces go which aren't perfect in all areas. It's literally a case by case basis and it does pain me when something goes out that I am not 100% happy with. However I have come to understand that we are imperfect people working in an imperfect medium. So I do compromise on my own standards if the totality of the piece is good.

Having said that I aspire every day to improve our methods so that can turn out better and better goods. I forgot who did the description of the edge burnishing where the edges on his notebooks were like well polished wood. Bob? But someday I want all of our edges to look like that and for me it's a process of creating a foolproof method that everyone in the shop can follow to get the same results every time.

I think most people agree that it's in the details. I tell my people all the time that if someone is trading a good portion of their income for one of our cases then they expect it to be right and when things are not right it diminishes the magic in their eyes and makes them question their judgment in deciding to buy from us. I say that even worse is when something is not right with the case and they don't notice it but their friends do.

So for me a well done, well finished piece is one where the design not only flows but everything is just as it should be.

[JohnBarton]

i know i am my own worst critique....i know i have a very long way to go..pretty much a beginner... how do you know if what you do is good? i love my friends and family dearly...but... i don't know that they trust my reaction enough to be brutaly honest with me... i keep telling them...be honest...it's the only way i can improve. i know there were many pieces that i can see the flaws like flashing beacons...and when i point them out they say i wouldnt have seen that if you didnt show me. or they say i am too picky. i know if someone makes something for me by hand...i certainly don't pick it apart, i love that they wanted to create something with thier hands for me. my hubby says that with hand made..you want some flaws...makes every piece unique and people can see it's not machine produced. still doesnt make me go any easier on myself. i'm just glad that i get so much pleasure while i'm working on the project. maybe thats what i need to guage my performance on..not so much the end...but how much i enjoyed doing it? so i guess as i type this...my most important thing to get right...is keeping it fun and challenging

The criteria I use to judge if I am "good" or not is asking myself would I gladly pay what I am asking for this piece and be able to use every day without complaint?

Some people make perfect awesome bags that have all sorts of "flaws" in them where the rivets aren't set quite right, the handles are a little off, etc.... and they charge relatively little for a bag that works great and holds up. To me they are GOOD. If someone wants a couple hundred for a bag then it had better be nearly perfect in the fit and finish though in my eyes.

Family and friends often don't make good critics. I usually ask my wife for her feeling on a some pieces because she is artistic and I like to hear her first reaction. The important part is NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER show any irritation at anything they say about your work if you asked them for their opinion. This causes rifts.

As far as the idea that hand made goods 'have' to have flaws I completely and utterly disagree with that. I have seen so many top notch pieces that were nearly flawless - I say nearly only because I wasn't able to inspect them all minutely - that I don't accept that something has to be flawed as a mark of being handmade.

Almost all forms of leather goods that are made in factory environments have a LOT of hand work in them. The resulting quality of the finished pieces is almost always conditional on the ability and care of the people doing the sewing and riveting. There is no such thing as a machine where you throw leather in one end and a perfect bag pops out the other side. :-)

Flaws in the fit and finish come about simply because we don't take the time to do it right, we measured wrong, we put something in the wrong place, or we just had a brain fart at the wrong time. They happen to all of us.

In cue making there are cue makers who will throw away a nearly finished cue if they make a mistake. They will put out nothing less than their idea of perfect. They also charge accordingly for that perfection. I have rejected cases for the things I mentioned in my previous post. It honestly depends on the flaw and how I feel about it. I don't think that there is anything wrong with being picky about the things that will bear your name. I think each of us needs to find their own comfort level with the goods we do and hope that our level finds customers who agree.

As my friend Bill Stroud said once, "my stuff costs so much because I don't want to stand here at shows and explain why something is not right on my cues."

[UKRay]

I must say that the answers I got to my questions have surprised me. How can insecurity be an issue in this multi-faceted and multi-talented leatherworking community? Okay, I rarely post pictures of my stuff on the board because I don't feel it 'jumps high enough' when compared to the other stuff I see; but I failed to see that most everyone else is concerned about their products too. Thanks guys, I feel a lot better!

As this thread developed I had had a few ideas myself about ways to improve the look and 'purchase factor' of my work. Having listened to everyone else I'm rather less worried about the quality of the workmanship as I concentrate a lot of effort on making stuff as well as I can and already try to pick up on all the things that have been mentioned. In fact I already spend far too much time looking for problems!

One thing I have identified as a problem is rivets. I currently use hammered tubular rivets and wonder if there is a better looking solution. Tubular rivets always look cheap to me and tend to rust or discolour at the first opportunity. I'd prefer to use a machine to set rivets but don't know what is available - or affordable. I'm also unsure how a machine would cope with rivets that need to be set in difficult places.

Aside from the 'build quality' I am quite concerned that the first view a customer has of my work leaves a good impression so I have recently invested in a big pack of plain white tissue paper to wrap individual items in before they are shipped. I don't care what the thing is, somehow tissue paper seems to add value - anyone got thoughts on that?

I have already gone down the route of buying in nice cloth bags for my larger leather items. They also add some perceived value. I'm now toying with the idea of paper or leather 'tags' and have just purchased a couple of shield shaped cutters from eBay to see how shaped tags look with my maker's stamp on them. Does anyone else do this?

I have mentioned in the past that I always include a set of care instructions with my leather bags and can say with some authority that these have definitely bought me in more business. They simply carry my name, email address, website and phone number along with some basic care hints. I wrap them around a jar of Skidmore's cream and a yellow duster and hold it all together with a rubber band - it ought to be a leather thong really I guess...

Anyone else got any ideas? Red tissue? Blue Tissue? Ribbons - I don't care as long as it works!

Edited April 15, 2009 by UKRay

[HorsehairBraider]

Re: packaging. I agree, it helps, and it shows you have pride in your work. I package my stuff in a clear ziplock baggie, with my card right behind it (It's blue, sort of, and I think adds some visual appeal) and behind the card are the care instructions. Even if I am making 10 things for the same person, every single item is individually packaged this way. That might seem redundant but I have no idea if these things are gifts for other people etc. and anyway, they look really classy in the package. And if they *are* gifts, every person who gets the gift sees it looking really nice in the package and as an aside gets one of my cards...

As far as tags... I can't really tag most of my work. But, I have seen some really nice tags on things. I just bought a new harness (after saving my money for a very long time) and the harness is by a well-known maker. It has little woven cloth tags sewn in to the various parts: the breast collar, the gig saddle etc. They are very tiny and discreet but very classy looking. And I'm quite proud to have them there: this harness is a work of art. It's a harness for a miniature horse, but the maker did not skimp on any details. It is truly high quality and I feel the tags add to it.

What Suze said about personal appearance is a good point, if you meet your customers face-to-face. If you mostly do your work from a website (like I do) then I would also urge to make sure the site is simple, easy to use, with a look that reflects you and your work. If I get asked a question often enough I change my site - for example, a lot of people would call or write and ask how to place an order... so at the end of EVERY item description on my site, I wrote "Just print out the Order page, and send it to me with your hair" because apparently I had not made that clear enough. Now I don't get that question nearly as often... but any question I get very often, I try to address. Some people are just never going to read the instructions, and some people just want you to hold their hand... you will never get away from that. But you do have to make it as easy as possible for a complete stranger, who has no idea what you offer or how to order, to get their questions answered simply and quickly.

And then there is the really basic stuff... at least to me... like, call people back when they call to enquire! Or if they write you, write them back! I have had lots of people react with surprise when I write them back or return their call. They should not have to be surprised, it should be a matter of professionalism that their call is returned or their email answered.

But I think a lot of this is just acting like a professional.

[rdb]

2P worth...

Looks to me, you're talking two different subjects.

One would be the qualities that make for a good example of leatherworking skills. The second would be in the marketing and sales display area.

I think we can all agree on what's involved in quality leather products, from stitching to burnishing. Maybe we all differ on what value we place on those products. Sometimes, the not so famous, or those who haven't been working leather for twenty years or more, can produce as fine a quality work as any, They just don't get the price for their work, that more established shops put out. Maybe it's their particular area that has less in the pocket, or just not the right clientele...or even like me, who makes whatever the customer wants at the time for the price they are willing to pay. I can't strive for perfection in each piece. I just don't have the customer base that is willing to pay $125 to $250 for a belt, or a cell case. Occasionaly, I might run into someone like that, but it's rare. Pricing can hurt sales too. Some of the finest wallets are made by people on this board, but the quality of their work has to be reflected in the pricing, It's hard to find enough people willing to pay that money, to keep the shop heat on. I believe there is a direct correlation between the quality of work, and what you can realistically charge for it. There's almost no point in making a $2500 cue case, if you don't have people to buy it. If you are willing to spend the years making for a niche market, like that, or holsters, or saddles, it will happen, I'm sure, but for most of us, it's a big risk to put all the eggs in one basket. Of course, the rewards could be greater too.

I'm in the "quick nickel" category. "I'ld rather make a quick nickel, than a slow dime". Perfection is over-rated, and you can quote me on that...lol.

Many famous artists, intentionally put flaws in their work, saying something along the line that, only God can make something perfect. I'm not sure I agree with that philosophy, but it says something about our humanity.

The next part is presentation. Like you Ray, I've wondered about nice boxes, and cloth bags, etc. There's someone on this board who throws in all kinds of stuff with the product (I think it was steveb?), including left over pieces of leather, decals for the car, magnets, and probably the kitchen sink too. I thought that was a nice touch. The customer is pleased to find some goodies, and the marketing doesn't just stop with the sale, it goes on from there, when people see the decals and such. Excellent approach.

I like your discussion threads, Ray, but it's time for you to start throwing out some pictures too...lol.

That's all for now, lunch is over, back to the shop. I got 2 cell phone cases, four belts (a figure 8 stitched belt, a gunbelt, a name belt with his and her on it, and a plain black "biker" belt), a fold up walking cane leather seat replacement , 6-12 wood turner's chisel guards, a rifle sling, and ...sheesh more to do.

In my best DeNiro..."They keep draggin' me back in."

[Crystal]

I must say that the answers I got to my questions have surprised me. How can insecurity be an issue in this multi-faceted and multi-talented leatherworking community? Okay, I rarely post pictures of my stuff on the board because I don't feel it 'jumps high enough' when compared to the other stuff I see; but I failed to see that most everyone else is concerned about their products too. Thanks guys, I feel a lot better!

As this thread developed I had had a few ideas myself about ways to improve the look and 'purchase factor' of my work. Having listened to everyone else I'm rather less worried about the quality of the workmanship as I concentrate a lot of effort on making stuff as well as I can and already try to pick up on all the things that have been mentioned. In fact I already spend far too much time looking for problems!

I am always quite concerned that the first view a customer has of my work leaves a good impression so I have recently invested in a big pack of plain white tissue paper to wrap individual items in before they are shipped. I don't care what the thing is, somehow tissue paper seems to add value - anyone got thoughts on that?

I have already gone down the route of buying in nice cloth bags for my larger leather items. They also add some perceived value. I'm now toying with the idea of paper or leather 'tags' and have just purchased a couple of shield shaped cutters from eBay to see how shaped tags look with my maker's stamp on them. Does anyone else do this?

I have mentioned in the past that I always include a set of care instructions with my leather bags and can say with some authority that these have definitely bought me in more business. They simply carry my name, email address, website and phone number along with some basic care hints. I wrap them around a jar of Skidmore's cream and a yellow duster and hold it all together with a rubber band - it ought to be a leather thong really I guess...

Anyone else got any ideas? Red tissue? Blue Tissue? Ribbons - I don't care as long as it works!

Ray- I've had the same thoughts on the tissue paper. I've bought some clothing from a few stores that carefully wrap up your purchases in tissue paper before they put them in a nice paper shopping bag with handles. Somehow, as a buyer, I get a good feeling about coming home and then unwrapping it. Seems like a present. I haven't spent any more money than I would have at Waly-World, where they just dump everything into a plastic bag, but I don't have the same good feeling coming home and taking those things out of the plastic bags. Color of the tissue paper? I don't think that really matters as long as you use the same color all the time. Make it like a brand mark. I loved TomSwede's keyfob with his maker's stamp on it. I think that is a brilliant idea to include that as a tag. Maybe make it up as a keyfob for higher end items?

I like what you are doing with the cloth bags for your other goods. It's that little something extra that I think says that if you are putting that much effort into the packaging, you must be taking the extra effort with the items you produce. All that said- I go back to "You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear." If the quality of the work isn't there - other than wrapping it in gold, I don't think the packaging is going to matter much at all.

I made a holster a little while ago - first one. It came out okay - had lots that I wasn't happy with. I showed it to my farrier the other week. He loved it. He pulled out a manufactured holster he had that he bought from a store. Mine was nicer than that one, but not as good as most shown on here. Does that make my holster "well finished". Not to me, it was better than that one but not at a level where I think my work should be. Ultimately I think customers decide what "Well Finished" is.

Crystal

[jbird]

Quick thing from me I have never been totaly happy with any thing I have done and I don't if I ever will be, but to my point I put tags on all my stuff I think this a good saling point it shows a care for your work and that your proud of it.

Josh

[Suze]

back for round two -- this is probably going to go all over the place -- hang with me folks. (my best ramblings are just that -ramblings)

Ray, about the tissue paper, is there any chance that whatever you wrap in it could "stick" to it? I would hate to get one you your high end purses (yes I went to your website) and have a big hunk of tissue stuck to it somehow. or am I wrong in thinking that?

the care instructions are a great idea. maybe you could make little cloth pouches to keep it all together? Nothing worse than finding "half" of what you need to care for a product.

And I have noticed that most of the really high end products DO come with a cloth bag to put it in. for when it needs to sit in the closet for a time. Maybe a cloth bag and then tissue?

ABOUT THE "QUICK NICKEL VS THE SLOW DIME"

HAVE that $2500 pool cue case on the table, make ONE- showcase it - put it on a pedastle (really) mark it "limited edition" (they don;t need to know that your edition is limited to what YOU want to make. (well it doesn't have to be a $2500 one - but one that is significantly higher than most of the things on the table)

My Mom did crochet work for the dollhouse - she worked on what we called "Evelyn's boredom factor" when she was bored with a pattern she didn't do it anymore. (with 40 years of crochet books in the house - she didn't NEED to repeat if she didn't want to)

She always had something on the table that was in the couple hundred dollar range (big bucks for what we sold) Perched right over the display of the crochet that varied in price from a few dollars to about 60.00 with the mid range in the 20's We also sold a lot of things that were in the ONE dollar and under range. But each item got our full skills.

People would stop and "OH MY GOD" at the tablecloth and BUY the $20.00 doily. Enough of them and you have "sold" the $200.00 tablecloth, and in the rare cases of her SELLING the tablecloth.... well we ate goooood that night.

Yes, you have time invested in it - but getting people to STOP at your table is worth it. Otherwise in a group of like minded crafters you have nothing that "stands out" and draws people IN to the booth. They walk by - and in this day and economy You need that something "bling" to attract attention.

You can do this with set up and display as well. Example- we sold "toss pillows" for your dollhouse these were about as big as a cotton ball. One inch and a bit square. one dollar each. There were other places that made the same little pillows and made with the same quality. two for a dollar. Ours sold - theirs not so well. Difference? we put each and every one in a little plastic bag and put a hang tag on it and put them on a rack. Theirs - tossed in a shoebox and put on the table. you had to dig around in the box to see what was there, and they got dirty and grubby from all of that. Ours - they could see a selection right off. KNEW they were clean when they brought them home. AND they saved TIME at the show. When you only have a set number of hours to "see it all" rooting through a box for a 50 cent item WASTES time. ( it got to the point that I was using rubber stamps and putting "codes" on the tags so I could find all the "teddy bears" or Christmas quicker)

We started that business on a "knotted shoestring" but we still had bags for our items - lunch sacks with a rubber stamp "business card" on it. Displays that Dad found "somewhere"

ABOUT "QUALITY CONTROL"

Ray I don't think that there is a craftsperson out there that looks at what he/she just finished without looking at it and going - I should have done "this" it would have made it soooo much better. Sometimes you have to let the baby bird fly come what may. It is not easy to do. I know that I have a scad of stuff here that Mom and I made that wouldn't make it to the table for some little reason or other. (I was grumping one Christmas about not having anything in my dollhouse that Mom made that DIDN'T have a goof in it somewhere. I got a crocheted animal that year for Christmas with a note attached that said that there were NO goofs in it)

some examples of "goofs" the Christmas tree skirt in one room was supposed to be a cape.... the stockings had a hole in them from the finishing process. I worked around it and you can't tell - but you can't sell that either. A sweater has a "glich" in the pattern - It really doesn't show, but it is still a mistake. And if I know a mistake is in an item and I can't work it out It won't be sold. (I've been braiding string lately and I know there are some issues with some of them BUT - I want to cut this 8 yard string into necklace lengths and I can cut out the parts that are not well done - I reversed the pattern somehow - cut it at that point)

Boy do I go on or what. This is an intresting thread. Let's keep it going.

[UKRay]

I think the tissue paper should be quite safe, Suze. I polish that old leather balm and atom wax good and hard... good point though. I like the idea of the little cloth pouches. It would be easy enough to make up a bunch of them with instructions, 1 oz of Skidmore's cream and a duster and just drop one in each bag as it sells.

I think I'm going to get some little printed stickers to use on the tissue paper... a bit more branding never hurts.

The finish thing isn't easy to resolve when you know a job could be done better but I sympathise with the "quick nickel" approach too when making up what I think of as 'production line' stuff. Maybe there is room for both schools of thought - High dollar work and production both happen in my workroom and I bet most people are in the same situation.

You are quite right, Dave, finish and 'window dressing' are two entirely different issues but somehow they seem linked as without the quality in both quarters the end product you hand over to the customer seems somehow less of a thing.

I will post a few pics sometime soonish - but don't hold your breath! It will take a time for this conversation to sink in.

I'd really appreciate some sensible advice on those rivets, guys. I don't like the tubular things but I can't find a suitable alternative. I don't mind buying in bulk from the US if the end product is improved - anyone know what those fancy foot operated Weaver riveters work like? Do they use tubular rivets?

[Suze]

Ok Ray - I had thought of something and didn't really know about the tissue paper.

I like the sticker idea - and remember to play with the "folding of the tissue" see what neat fold you can put in it quick. and then sticker it shut.

and weren't you supposed to post pics of those 3 legged stools? Hummmm? >grin<

and I will - over the weekend post some pics of a "learning in progress" (as soon as I find out where the cat took the "crap braid" too)

It's not leather but I thing you will be amused by it.

making cloth pouches is really easy - you just need a friend and two sewing machined and two sergers.....chain them from one to the other and end up with a garland of pouches. (no, I've never done that before. why do you ask?) (just 300 of them for event tokens - one afternoon and a bunch of giggles later)

[JohnBarton]

I must say that the answers I got to my questions have surprised me. How can insecurity be an issue in this multi-faceted and multi-talented leatherworking community? Okay, I rarely post pictures of my stuff on the board because I don't feel it 'jumps high enough' when compared to the other stuff I see; but I failed to see that most everyone else is concerned about their products too. Thanks guys, I feel a lot better!

As this thread developed I had had a few ideas myself about ways to improve the look and 'purchase factor' of my work. Having listened to everyone else I'm rather less worried about the quality of the workmanship as I concentrate a lot of effort on making stuff as well as I can and already try to pick up on all the things that have been mentioned. In fact I already spend far too much time looking for problems!

One thing I have identified as a problem is rivets. I currently use hammered tubular rivets and wonder if there is a better looking solution. Tubular rivets always look cheap to me and tend to rust or discolour at the first opportunity. I'd prefer to use a machine to set rivets but don't know what is available - or affordable. I'm also unsure how a machine would cope with rivets that need to be set in difficult places.

Can't help you pal. Rivets are my bane. No matter how many sizes and types I buy I never have the "right" ones. Just today I am finishing a case - a sample for production and all the hardware is antique brass only to discover that the 8 rivets I need are not in stock EXCEPT for polished brass. As for looking cheap, I disagree on that and feel that it's the placement and proper setting of them that defines how they compliment or hurt a piece. I can't stand to see rivets that are set wrong or where the wrong sized setter was used and so the rivet has a small ring on it or the surrounding leather does. In one of the factories we deal with they have a custom air-driven machine that has a 50cm arm and can get to most any place on a case. I have never seen the equivalent on sale anywhere, they had it customized to their needs. For ourselves I had a custom manual spring setter built that more or less works although we more often end up just using it as an anvil to set the rivets by hand.

Aside from the 'build quality' I am quite concerned that the first view a customer has of my work leaves a good impression so I have recently invested in a big pack of plain white tissue paper to wrap individual items in before they are shipped. I don't care what the thing is, somehow tissue paper seems to add value - anyone got thoughts on that?

I have already gone down the route of buying in nice cloth bags for my larger leather items. They also add some perceived value. I'm now toying with the idea of paper or leather 'tags' and have just purchased a couple of shield shaped cutters from eBay to see how shaped tags look with my maker's stamp on them. Does anyone else do this?

I have mentioned in the past that I always include a set of care instructions with my leather bags and can say with some authority that these have definitely bought me in more business. They simply carry my name, email address, website and phone number along with some basic care hints. I wrap them around a jar of Skidmore's cream and a yellow duster and hold it all together with a rubber band - it ought to be a leather thong really I guess...

Anyone else got any ideas? Red tissue? Blue Tissue? Ribbons - I don't care as long as it works!

Packaging is really important but you want to avoid making your things look "too professional" in that the packaging should not scream "store bought" or "Manufactured". I study packaging all the time and try to strike the kind of balance where the packaging is elegant and sincere without being overbearing. When I ship cases we put them in a nice cloth bag with a drawstring made of the same cloth. Recently I decided to laser JB Cases on them. I have also made up little credit card holders (two pieces of leather sewn together and a little shorter than a credit card) where I put about 15 business cards in it. On the back of one business card I write a thank you note to the customer and call them by name so they can see it's not pre-printed.

I think that my next step might be to invest in a nice box. Again I hesitate because of not wanting to look manufactured and also I don't want to add a lot of cost to the cases that I may not really need.

I think that the tissue paper is a great idea. Basically I try to imagine my customers feeling like kids at Christmas and hope that the thrill of opening a box from me is like that.

I would stay away from tags. Unless they fill some need like care instructions I think that they take away from the look of the piece. In my old company we used to sew a small piece of leather inside the case with a clear window where we put the warranty and care instructions. This way the customer could have it there all the time. I should do that again.

One thing we did for one line of cases I do is to make leather key fobs with the tag sewn on them out of the same leather that the case is made of. These cases have locks on them so that's a nice touch.

Anyway, the right kind of packaging can really make people feel special about what's inside.