Singer 29-4 usable?

[wintermte]

Hi,

I've found an ad for a Singer 29-4 for pretty cheap ($350), and I've been looking for a sewing machine to use. I know almost nothing about sewing machines, so I need some advice. Is this a decent machine to use? Can it sew threw 6-8 oz tooling leather or multiple layers of lighter weight leather? Are there any how to use guides that anyone is aware of for using one of these?

Thanks in advance for any advice anyone can offer.

Dan

[Wizcrafts]

A Singer 29-4 is an old cobblers' machine designed to repair shoes, boots, handbags and jacket zippers. It will sew approximately 1/4" thickness, using 29x3 or 29x4 series needles. Thread capacity is up to size T90 cotton, nylon or polycore. The bobbin is tiny in these machines, which date back to the early 1900's.

Patchers do not have feed dogs at all. They move the work via the pressor foot, which has sharp teeth and can be turned 360 degrees. The teeth will leave permanent marks in vegtan or harness leather.

The 29 series are known by their common use name: "Patcher" - as in shoe patcher. They are not designed for production, but for footwear repairs. A 29-4 is not going to sew 3 layers of 8 oz leather. If you really push it you might get 5/16" under the foot. Stitch length varies with the thickness of the work and is limited to about 6 to the inch, maximum (rebuilt 29-4's may yield up to 5/inch for a while). If the mechanism driving the foot is badly worn you will probably get less than 7 stitches to the inch, on 1/8" of leather and 8/inch on 1/4".

The condition of the inner moving parts depends on how old the machine is and how well it was maintained by all owners who used it. Certain parts are known to wear out and will need to be replaced with new-old stock, or made/beefed up in a metal shop. Bob Kovar, at Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines - 866-362-7397, has replacement parts, needles and bobbins for Singer Patchers.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Wizcrafts

[BuckARoux]

A Singer 29-4 is an old cobblers' machine designed to repair shoes, boots, handbags and jacket zippers. It will sew approximately 1/4" thickness, using 29x3 or 29x4 series needles. Thread capacity is up to size T90 cotton, nylon or polycore. The bobbin is tiny in these machines, which date back to the early 1900's.

Patchers do not have feed dogs at all. They move the work via the pressor foot, which has sharp teeth and can be turned 360 degrees. The teeth will leave permanent marks in vegtan or harness leather.

The 29 series are known by their common use name: "Patcher" - as in shoe patcher. They are not designed for production, but for footwear repairs. A 29-4 is not going to sew 3 layers of 8 oz leather. If you really push it you might get 5/16" under the foot. Stitch length varies with the thickness of the work and is limited to about 6 to the inch, maximum (rebuilt 29-4's may yield up to 5/inch for a while). If the mechanism driving the foot is badly worn you will probably get less than 7 stitches to the inch, on 1/8" of leather and 8/inch on 1/4".

The condition of the inner moving parts depends on how old the machine is and how well it was maintained by all owners who used it. Certain parts are known to wear out and will need to be replaced with new-old stock, or made/beefed up in a metal shop. Bob Kovar, at Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines - 866-362-7397, has replacement parts, needles and bobbins for Singer Patchers.

I totally agree my first machine was a 29-4 Ive made a lot of money with that old 40 dollar machine, I still use it daily. I wouldnt be without mine I sew patches on vests jackets boots shoes etc make small leather goods on it its just a great old machine

[Bayliss]

Hi, I know this is an old post but I am refurbishing a singer 29k at the moment. It might help if you have any problems or if you are just interested how it goes together.

http://northants-restoration.blogspot.com/

[MG513]

This was a good read as I am in the market for a 29-4! Thanks all

[Cascabel]

I have a 29-4, and it uses standard 135x16 and 135x17 needles quite nicely. I don't know if adjustments were made in order to use these common needles or not. It was set up for them when I got it.

[Wizcrafts]

I have a 29-4, and it uses standard 135x16 and 135x17 needles quite nicely. I don't know if adjustments were made in order to use these common needles or not. It was set up for them when I got it.

It is pure chance that the system 135x16 and 135x17 walking foot needles fit perfectly in old patchers. It is really good fortune because most manufacturers no longer produce the actual 29x3 or 29x4 needles. They did not have a scarf above the eye, like the walking foot needles have. Timing is a bit trickier on well worn machines.

[MG513]

I came across a Singer 29-4 from a reputable seller but he has not gotten back to me. I just replied to a Local craigslist ad that had an Adler Patcher in his photos, which model, I dont know, but it was silver, and looked to be in very good (cosmetic) condition. Something tells me Adlers cost more then Singers, can someone tell me why, is the diff in cost worth it, and is there something I should be checking for on the Adler if he happens to be flexible in price? What should i try to sew as a test? (BTW, I dont know how much he's asking for it yet, I literally just emailed, he's liquidating LOTS of saddle shop equipment)

[Constabulary]

You should try to test sew materials you are going to sew with the machine later of course. Cosmetic is a hint but the machine could have been repainted at one point of it´s life. You sometimes find Adler 30 machines in light gray but they do not have a mechanisms for disengaging the hand wheel so you can be sure these machines never have left the factory with this paint. But thats something not everybody knows and it does not mean the seller is cheating you - it just means the machine has been repainted or refurbished. But that tells you nothing about the technical condition. Especially for patcher machines it is important to test sew them before you pay a lot of $$$ - a lot of them are worn and a new paint job does not improve the stitch length.

[MG513]

You should try to test sew materials you are going to sew with the machine later of course. Cosmetic is a hint but the machine could have been repainted at one point of it´s life. You sometimes find Adler 30 machines in light gray but they do not have a mechanisms for disengaging the hand wheel so you can be sure these machines never have left the factory with this paint. But thats something not everybody knows and it does not mean the seller is cheating you - it just means the machine has been repainted or refurbished. But that tells you nothing about the technical condition. Especially for patcher machines it is important to test sew them before you pay a lot of $$$ - a lot of them are worn and a new paint job does not improve the stitch length.

Thats very true. I have a few pieces of leather at home and if I hear back from him again I know someone who was selling some veg tan scraps I can buy and take up there to try and sew with. Hes about an hour away so that drive is next to nothing.

Also, is 5 SPI what it should be stitching?? I hear this often, "check the SPI chef the SPI", but im just not sure whats good and what isn't... Any pointers on that? Or link to another thread maybe?

[Constabulary]

5 SPI is the max. stitch length the 29K and 30 have when new. Test the stitch length on a thin piece of card board. A good score for a used patcher is 5.5 - 6 SPI but when is it shorter I (personally) would bot buy the Adler due to the spare parts situation (or you can live with shorter stitches). For the 29K you may find the parts but have to find out which are worn but you at least can find any 29K71 part for reasonable prices.

[Ferg]

I have a 29-4. Very good condition. I done a few things during refurbishing but essentially it was good.

I can get 7 spi in thin leather, it will do 5 spi all day long in a quarter inch.

The 29-4 leaves presser foot marks in veg tan and any soft leather. You can release the pressure but doing so is questionable because that is half of what enables the material to be fed under the foot.

I haven't used mine very much, just haven't had the projects that required it.

ferg

[GreenwoodBowcraft]

Thanks for the information here! I have a couple of additional questions. I've been needing a leather machine in order to grow my business and capability some. My father in law has an old singer machine which I believe to be a 29-4. It came from his father's shoe repair business where they had a handful of different machines.

When you say "not for production" what do you mean exactly? Assuming it's in well working order, would it not stand up to the wear of half a dozen belts a week, or would it simply be more difficult than with machine designed for that purpose? I'd love a cobra, or even a tippman but even though my business does well, I can't justify that kind of investment as most of our proceeds to back towards supporting the family.

I'm looking mainly for some clam-shell type quivers, and sewing patches onto arm guards, and perhaps some belts. I'm looking at maybe 5-10 projects a week on the high end. I think I can work inside the .25" max thickness but I don't want to waste my time and damage a piece of family history for no reason.

Thanks for your contributions!

[Wizcrafts]

Thanks for the information here! I have a couple of additional questions. I've been needing a leather machine in order to grow my business and capability some. My father in law has an old singer machine which I believe to be a 29-4. It came from his father's shoe repair business where they had a handful of different machines.

When you say "not for production" what do you mean exactly? Assuming it's in well working order, would it not stand up to the wear of half a dozen belts a week, or would it simply be more difficult than with machine designed for that purpose? I'd love a cobra, or even a tippman but even though my business does well, I can't justify that kind of investment as most of our proceeds to back towards supporting the family.

I'm looking mainly for some clam-shell type quivers, and sewing patches onto arm guards, and perhaps some belts. I'm looking at maybe 5-10 projects a week on the high end. I think I can work inside the .25" max thickness but I don't want to waste my time and damage a piece of family history for no reason.

Thanks for your contributions!

The 29-4 is century old now. If it was used normally in a shoe repair shop, it will probably have an awful lot of worn out parts. You won't know until you try it or buy it. The worse case is that it will only give 8 to 10 stitches per inch. That's horrible in leather sewing. Even worse than that would be so much slop in the driving pinion that it won't even pick off the thread loop and sew. Parts for the driving system are dear and not necessarily compatible with modern aftermarket parts.

As for the 1/4 inch capacity, most patchers can manage that. There is a sliding block on the leaf spring on the back that controls the foot lift during operation. You will be limited to #92 bonded nylon thread.

Even if the machine is pristine and sews its rated 5 to the inch, the dime size bobbins don't hold very much thread. You can probably sew up to 10 mens' belts per load, if you stick to #69 bonded thread in the bobbin.

[Wizcrafts]

I forgot to mention that these machines are meant for shoe and boot uppers sewing. Nowadays, most of us use them to repair ladies' purses and sew patches onto bikers' vests, mainly over pockets.

There are no edge guides to ensure a straight stitch line. The feed is via teeth on the single presser foot. The 29-4 is the polar opposite of a production machine. It is a patcher and repairs machine only.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Wizcrafts

[ke6cvh]

Hello group,  I hesitated for a really long time to buy a patcher because all the negative comments I read.  Now I have 4 on hand in a month's time and considering buying an antique Bradbury A1.  A couple of things I've noted.  I bought a "2972b" China clone which seems to be the same as a Techsew 2900 costing much more.  I bought on Amazon for 899 because they delivered to my overseas location but it shipped from USA.  There was a washer missing on the hand wheel but we fabricated that easy enough allowing proper dis engagement of it for bobbin winding (it would over tighten and be next to impossible to release without the washer).  The different sized needle holes are actually the same size on the plate of this machine but again no big deal as I can change that.  It sews like a dream and it is as close a copy as they could make with interchangeable parts generic available on internet.  So then I bought the tiny low cost China patcher.  They are starting to go up in quality.  The bearing on it is a modern sealed bearing.  Many of the parts are chromed.  It has an honest 1/2 inch lift and can do that 5-6 spi at 1/2 inch thickness going through 16 layers of medium weight denim exactly 0.5 inch.  It cost me 177 off Amazon.  Not all are equal.  So then I bought two patchers from Robin industries out of China.  165 for their four different models before shipping.  Here in Philippines I paid 75 Fedex, 12 US dollars tax, 25 bank wire fee from US bank.  The first was an RC32-3A.  It takes a system 7x3 needle up to size nm250.  I sewed v346 right out of the box and haven't tried anything thicker yet.  The bobbin on this machine is giant compared to the larger of the two Singer bobbins on a 29k72.  It has a built in roller guide (but there are youtube videos on how to make a sliding and simple cloth guide that clamps onto the wings rotating the universal feed).    The next one is a Robin RC32-2A post bed.  It had a minor issue going above v138 thread that I fixed with a little work in 1 hour and now goes up to nm250 as well but this machine takes a Singer 45k1 needle (dd214).    So now to my comments on production work.  That is an interesting statement to make.  We have 5 dozen industrials.   We try to keep pairs or more of every type.  In a factory one thing is for certain there will be machines dedicated to each portion of a stitch operation in the assembly process.  Do I believe these machines could be used for production purposes?  Absolutely!  If used in a certain stitch operation that others cannot perform which will limit them in use but at the same time allow them to do a tiny procedure others cannot perform.  The bulk would be done on flat beds and cylinder arms and the tiny little portions that only they can perform would be on one of these.  A classic example is my circa 1917 Singer glove stitching machine that is a post bed and a chain stitch.....I'd never use it for almost anything but then again if I was to sew fingers on light leather gloves why not?  Doesn't look like an industrial and is much smaller than most domestics but it still is/was a production machine.  We are currently making mad tables for all these and we will post them as they are completed.  Yes, these patchers don't touch a candle to the Cowboy cb4500 Bob Kovar sold me but then again there are times they can do things the Cowboy can't do (production or non production).  Best regards, Mike

[Wizcrafts]

I should have qualified my previous statement from 2016 where I claimed that Singer patchers are the polar opposite of production machines. This would apply where it is the only sewing machine a user has and will have to perform all of the sewing operations. They can be applied to production situations, as described by Mike, where other machines struggle and they excel. But, the patcher should be finely tuned and high quality if you depend on it to help produce goods for sale.

Most discussions about Singer patchers are from people considering buying a 29-4 as their first or second sewing machine. They want to know if the machine can sew belts, straps, holsters, saddles, etc. They ask how thick can it sew and what is the thickest thread it can use. This is because the machines are so well built that they appear to be strong enough to handle all those jobs. The answers tend to disappoint the posters.
 

To the point of the original discussion, Singer 29-4 patchers are from the early 1900s and are usually shot by this time. Their stitch length is the first thing to go, then the timing gears wear out. Some of those gears are no longer available, except from salvage machines. I personally would not trust such a machine in a production environment unless it was rebuilt to factory specs (including possibly making some new pinion gears)..

[Gunnarsson]

On ‎7‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 5:53 PM, Wizcrafts said:

...then the timing gears wear out. Some of those gears are no longer available, except from salvage machines...

Are you referring to the gears under the bobbin area only, or something located "earlier" in the timing mechanism? (I'm not familiar with how the "earlier" part of the mechanism is made.)

[Wizcrafts]

7 hours ago, Gunnarsson said:

Are you referring to the gears under the bobbin area only, or something located "earlier" in the timing mechanism? (I'm not familiar with how the "earlier" part of the mechanism is made.)

I was referring to the pinion gears under the nose of the arm. Those have changed dimensions and how many were used over the years. People trying to restore ancient model 29-4 machines are discovering that there aren't any readily available replacement pinions in the aftermarket.

There are other moving parts that fit the early models but not later ones. It is a crap shoot to buy an ancient patcher. However, they make excellent weights and anchors!

[Gunnarsson]

All right, thanks!
I'm keeping an eye out for a cheap(!) 29 and would be happy with an early one as long as it's complete, but I'm expecting to have to make some new or refurbish worn out parts myself. Not in the mood for buying new replacements just to find out they're (chinese?) low quality parts that don't fit well and need modification, might as well refurbish worn parts or make my own from scratch then. Trying to do the research first so I know what to look for on a machine when I find it.

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, Gunnarsson said:

All right, thanks!
I'm keeping an eye out for a cheap(!) 29 and would be happy with an early one as long as it's complete, but I'm expecting to have to make some new or refurbish worn out parts myself. Not in the mood for buying new replacements just to find out they're (chinese?) low quality parts that don't fit well and need modification, might as well refurbish worn parts or make my own from scratch then. Trying to do the research first so I know what to look for on a machine when I find it.

Try to watch for a Singer 29k71, 72, or 73. These are among the finest and have the most compatible parts available. The last Singer patchers made were 29 K or U 171, 172 and 173. I had a 29k172 and had non-stop problems until I decided to get rid off it. That's when it began behaving as expected!

[Gunnarsson]

I'll keep that in mind. But as I'm staying in the lowest end of the price range and in my local area I have little hope for having much of a choice, there's not much available.

I just like the patchers ability to get into hard to reach spots and sew any direction, would be a nice addition to my domestic machine (for non-leather work), but i don't really need one so I'm not gonna fight people prepared to pay stupid money for one. One will turn up sooner or later, I'm not in a hurry.

[cdthayer]

40 minutes ago, Gunnarsson said:

I'm not gonna fight people prepared to pay stupid money for one. One will turn up sooner or later, I'm not in a hurry.

Care to expand on what "stupid money" (in your opinion) would be?

CD in Oklahoma USA

 

[Gunnarsson]

20 minutes ago, cdthayer said:

Care to expand on what "stupid money" (in your opinion) would be?

CD in Oklahoma USA

 

When they come up for sale here in Sweden they tend to either cost 500 or 5000 SEK suprisingly often, occasionally I've seen them up around 10000. The SEK to US dollar exchange rate is 9.37 today, so that roughly translates to 55, 550 and 1100 US dollars now.
The $55-group generally contains machines that appear to be coming from grandpas basement/attic when the kids clean it out, covered by a thick layer of dust, some rust, and no one knows anything more than you can see in the pictures of the ad. 
The $550-group is usually machines in some sort of running condition, sometimes good, sometimes not. A few are from people who don't know what they have, they've just seen others advertised at the price so they try it too.
The up to $1100-machines are straight out of a cobblers shop, just replaced by a newer machine. (When those machines are sold by a company the tax situation is different, basically making it 1/5 cheaper for another company to buy it, but not for common people, so the price isn't as high as it may seem for the likely buyers - other cobblers.)

I know 29's generally cost less here in Sweden than many other parts of the world. But still, I wouldn't pay anywhere near $550 even for a machine in perfect shape, they're good at what they do but they simply don't do enough to motivate that high price. Especially not being 50+ years old and spare part supply and quality is inconsistent. Double that money (or don't, if you're lucky) and you may have a triple feed industrial machine instead that seems way more useful and worth an investment. For someone with a lot of use for a cobbler style machine it would make sense to pay up for a good one, for a DIYer that may use it a few times a year I don't think it makes sense. Most people could make more useful investments.

Stupid money? Well, that all depends on the situation, how good the machine is, how much use you have for it, and if it'll bring in money once you are using it. I paid ~$800 for a welder that probably has paid for itself since and been a great help, I can see paying quite a bit for a good small lathe as it would be very useful (as for making 29K parts perhaps, cutting gears isn't rocket science ), but I'd be crazy to pay a lot for a sewing machine that may see the odd hour of (unpaid) work each year and take up quite a bit of space. 

[cdthayer]

Thanks for the information Gunnarsson.  It’s interesting to get an idea of prices in your country/area.

I agree that if you’re not going to use it much, the cost could be wasted money.  I have a sewing shop where I do repairs, so my 29s have paid for themselves and earned a profit.  Much of my sewing over the years couldn’t have been done without a 29-style machine.

CD in Oklahoma