Needles And Threads

[Art]

Leatherworker.net has become an international success. One problem, we and our industry are mired in a combination/confusion of Imperial/Metric/Trade measurements. This can be a problem when trying to talk about needles and threads. The following table deals primarily with twisted multifilament threads of the Nylon and Polyester varieties.

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Art

[sandyt]

I was/am sure having a hard time with all the diferent types. This helps a lot. Thanks. Does somebody have a table like this for needle sizes also?

Thanks.

Sandy.

[Ferg]

Campbell Randall may have the needle chart, they have much information on their site.

ferg

  On 7/25/2011 at 11:00 PM, sandyt said:

I was/am sure having a hard time with all the diferent types. This helps a lot. Thanks. Does somebody have a table like this for needle sizes also?

Thanks.

Sandy.

[busted]

  On 7/25/2011 at 11:00 PM, sandyt said:

I was/am sure having a hard time with all the diferent types. This helps a lot. Thanks. Does somebody have a table like this for needle sizes also?

Thanks.

Sandy.

http://www.industrialsewmachine.com/webdoc3/thread.htm

this is a web site I use for reference it is both needle size and thread size. Schmetz has the needle chart you are looking for http://aaasewingmachines.com/schmetz.aspx.

Maybe these will help.

[Techsew Ron]

Here's a PDF version of our needle/thread chart that you can print out and keep by your machine.

http://raphaelsewing.com/blogimg/techsew_ndl_thread_chart.pdf

[RandyScott]

  On 8/10/2011 at 12:33 PM, busted said:

Schmetz has the needle chart you are looking for http://aaasewingmach...m/schmetz.aspx.

The above link returns an error... not to worry... simply backspace through the period following 'aspx' in the URL box, hit the Enter key and the link loads.

[amuckart]

A question about converting between different thread size formats. What does a "V" in the front of the number signify? I rang a local supplier here about bonded polyester and the sizes they quoted me were V69 - V207.

Thanks.

[Wizcrafts]

  On 8/26/2011 at 11:59 PM, amuckart said:

A question about converting between different thread size formats. What does a "V" in the front of the number signify? I rang a local supplier here about bonded polyester and the sizes they quoted me were V69 - V207.

Thanks.

A "V" type thread is the same any bonded thread. Each manufacturer is allowed to call their thread by whatever type they want, unless they are selling to the US Government. Then, the nylon thread must meet government Mil Spec VT-295. This may be why some thread companies prefix bonded nylon thread with the letter V.

Your decisions regarding thread should be based on its intended use, the pounds of pull that must be endured, the atmospheric conditions it will be submitted to, the nature of the bonding (dry or lubricated), the thread handling capabilities of the machines, and the put up (size of spool/weight/yardage/meters) you need.

What follows are my own opinions. These may not be in agreement with other people's opinions.

People sewing leather garments, or upholstery, commonly sew with #69 to #92 thread and leather point needles just large enough to pass the thread. They sew at high to very high speeds (1500 to 2000 SPM)

Boot makers use #69 and #138 for construction, as well as #33 and #46 (with tiny needles) for the design stitching. They sew at medium to slow speeds for control.

Soles are sewn on curved needle sole stitcher, using 7 cord or larger, right twist, linen thread, run through a heated or liquid, hardening stitching wax. If one stich wears out, the hardened wax holds the remain nearby stitches in place. The needles are huge.

Belts are typically sewn with #69 (dress), to #138 (work belts), to #277 (police, gunfighter, or weight lifters' belts). Ditto for animal leads and collars. These are usually sewn at medium-high speed (to get 'er done). I like about 10 to 12 stitches per second when sewing straight runs on belts and straps (rifle, guitar), up to about 1/4" total thickness.

Holsters meant for show, not for go, can be sewn with #138 or 207 thread. Slow speed is needed to control the short stitch runs and fast turns in shaped pancake holsters. Duty pancake holsters should have larger thread (at least high quality #207!), top and bottom (see next paragraphs).

Serious holsters, used in competition, Western, or street Police work should have no lighter than #277 thread, top and bottom, but often use #346 bonded nylon, or 5 or 6 cord, left twist, Barbour's Irish Linen thread, run through liquid wax in a wax pot (sewn on a needle and awl harness stitcher). These are sewn slowly, because of the friction caused by a very large needle, loaded with very heavy thread, penetrating 1/2 to 3/4 inch of veg-tan leather or dense Kydex.

The weakest link in any project is the smallest diameter/tensile strength thread. Sewing with #277 on top and #207 on the bottom makes the stitch as strong as the #207 bottom thread. In the event of a life or death struggle for a weapon, you don't want to have it on your conscience that you saved a few dollars on bobbin thread, that cost an officer his life, when the thinner bottom stitches gave out in a struggle and he was shot with his own gun. Heavy thread is cheaper than a Police funeral.

Any thick leather, or Kydex holster should be sewn with the thickest thread your machine can handle. PPC Competition shooters run, roll around on the ground and draw and shoot. Western shooters draw as fast and hard as possible, in outdoor conditions (steel bullet deflectors at the muzzle end are a nice idea for fast draw holsters). Don't skimp on the size of the thread you use in serious holsters and matching gun belts.

Collars, harnesses and leads for big dogs and horses should be sewn with very thick thread (#277 or #346), with turn-back stitches in another inside row, at the buckle and D-Ring areas. Ditto for horse bridles. Some collar makers like to use a skip-a-dee technique instead of turn backs, at Dee-Rings. I also prefer this and my Union Lockstitch machine has a skip-a-dee lever, which feeds more thread for this purpose.

Try to always buy your thread from a known manufacturer, or a company who stands behind the quality, batch to batch, of the thread they sell. When buying thread, it is advisable to purchase two spools at a time, of each color you intend to use. One should feed the machine, the other the bobbin winder.

End my opinions on thread.

[jcatleather]

Thanks Wiz! very helpful.

[CowboyBob]

Since this is the needle section I frequently ask abiout needle points here is a comparison of the D vs S point of Schmetz #1 being the S point & you can see how much finer the needle hole looks .You can plainly see the larger hole in sample#2 that is because there's a cut on the side the S point only make a cut parallel with the line of stitching with alot smaller hole.These were both done w/#277 thread & #25 needle.

Bob

[catskin]

Hi. Bob.

Does this mean that on tougher/ harder leather that the D point might be better? As in letting the thread move through easier to form the loop and pull in the bottom thread.

[CowboyBob]

Okay,

Here's a sample underneath sewn on the same CB 4500 S needle on left & D on right.

Bob

Edited December 10, 2011 by sewmun

[Suemi]

Quick question for you pros,

I have been running a 92 thread through a 22 needle on my 255rb-2. I want to go thicker, like a 138 or even up to 207. Is this possible on my machine?

Thanks for you help,

Rich

[Wizcrafts]

  On 3/30/2012 at 1:59 AM, Suemi said:

Quick question for you pros,

I have been running a 92 thread through a 22 needle on my 255rb-2. I want to go thicker, like a 138 or even up to 207. Is this possible on my machine?

Thanks for you help,

Rich

I use a #19 or #20 needle for #92 thread. I use a #22 to #23 needle with #138 thread. You would need a #24 needle for #207 thread.

[Suemi]

Thanks for the reply Wiz...

Can I run the 138 and 207 thread in the bobbin as well?

Thanks for the help.

Rich

  On 3/30/2012 at 3:34 AM, Wizcrafts said:

I use a #19 or #20 needle for #92 thread. I use a #22 to #23 needle with #138 thread. You would need a #24 needle for #207 thread.

[tnawrot2]

  On 8/27/2011 at 7:14 PM, Wizcrafts said:

Collars, harnesses and leads for big dogs and horses should be sewn with very thick thread (#277 or #346), with turn-back stitches in another inside row, at the buckle and D-Ring areas. Ditto for horse bridles. Some collar makers like to use a skip-a-dee technique instead of turn backs, at Dee-Rings. I also prefer this and my Union Lockstitch machine has a skip-a-dee lever, which feeds more thread for this purpose.

.

Can you explain, possibly with pictures, what "turn back stitches" and "skip-a-dee" stitches look like?

Thanks,

Terry

[pstaylor]

Hello, leather gurus, artisans, and hacks like me,

I have an ooold Brother DB2-B755-3, which is identical to a lot of Juki's I see around, and looked in the .pdf manual that it accepts "DBx1 (DBx5)" needles. I am overwhelmed in confusion about needles and sizing and system and all things surrounding this. I took out the needle it came with because i wanted something smaller so I put in "Schmetz Leather 130/705" and under that it says "110/18".

No good, unless i want to perforate leather. Did not make a stitch worth a darn. (see what I did there?!) I've seen all sorts of nonsensical numbers and am trying to hone in on what exactly will work for me.

What is the relation between the DBx and the actual needle sizing? What will work for me?

Thank you all for not making fun of me.

Paul

[Wizcrafts]

DBx1 is a needle "system" - not a size. These needles are quite short and are for use in garment sewing machines and sergers. Their short size leads to a short stroke in the needlebar, which means not too much clearance is available under the presser foot.

If the other needle you tried is too long or too short, the loop will be in the wrong place and the hook will not pick it up.

However, if you tried using a different "system" needle and by chance it is the same length (top of shaft to eye of needle) as the DBx1, you may have inserted it with the cutout above the eye facing the wrong direction. That cutout should face to the dead right and should be threaded from left to right.

BTW: Your machine is a high speed garment sewing machine, for cloth, not leather. It is meant to sew with cotton or polyester or polyester and cotton dual core threads, typically is home sizes 40 or 50. A number 18 needle is fairly large for those threads.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Wizcrafts

[pstaylor]

Thanks Wiz! I will make sure it was on correctly since I broke the one that was working.

The needle the guy had on it and demonstrated to me the effectiveness was a pretty large one, and blunt tipped, and it tore through 8-9 oz leather stitched to 4 oz garment leather like there was no tomorrow. I broke it while fiddling around.

Is the DPx5 just an equivalent term for DBx1, or is that something else?

Thanks again.

[Wizcrafts]

  On 1/18/2013 at 6:10 AM, pstaylor said:

Thanks Wiz! I will make sure it was on correctly since I broke the one that was working.

The needle the guy had on it and demonstrated to me the effectiveness was a pretty large one, and blunt tipped, and it tore through 8-9 oz leather stitched to 4 oz garment leather like there was no tomorrow. I broke it while fiddling around.

Is the DPx5 just an equivalent term for DBx1, or is that something else?

Thanks again.

No, the DBx1 and DPx5 are different systems. The DPx5 is also known as a system 134 Pfaff garment machine needle. They are very close in size to the DBx1, but the top shank is wider (moving the point off-center) and the point sticks down farther from the bottom of the eye than the x1. Home style 130/705 is the wrong shank diameter (plus has a flat side) and length, although they are close in length to the x1.

You can buy DBx1 (aka: 1738, 16x257 and more) online, or from most of our member dealers, in sizes 9 through 22. If you truly want to sew leather with the Brother machine, try doing so using a DBx1 size 18 (aka: 110), with #69 bonded nylon thread. If the holes are too noticeable, go down one size to a #16 needle.

Stick to using the correct system needles for your needlebar and machine setup. If it calls for DBx1, use that system.

[kyuukaru]

Does a chart exist showing the equivalencies of cotton shoemaker's thread (e.g. sizes 20, 16, 12) to tkt or tex sizes?

[Wizcrafts]

  On 3/24/2013 at 4:50 PM, kyuukaru said:

Does a chart exist showing the equivalencies of cotton shoemaker's thread (e.g. sizes 20, 16, 12) to tkt or tex sizes?

Check out this chart - which has several different thread systems listed, including linen thread cord sizes.

[mungop]

Here's an interesting link on Sewing Machine Needles

http://banner-flag.bainbridgeint.com/dbimgs/us/04_USA_Tools_133_150.pdf

Here's another link for small quantities of needles p.38 and

the sewing machine they sell and

which thread size to use (you have to read a bit) and an interesting

list of bits and pieces.

http://cdn.sailmakerssupply.com/downloads/Sailmakers_Supply_Catalog_2011a.pdf

Edited April 8, 2013 by mungop

[mungop]

Can't seem to edit my previous post for the second time.

P. 25 of the sailmaker catalogue lists threads but what is useful is that it also lists yardage and weight.

[Malin]

Hi,

I am new here and signed up because I need some help - but I can't start a new topic yet, so I hope I do the right thing here... I have been given a Brother DB2-B755. It was a gift by someone who is now too old to use it and she had only a thin brochure for it. According to youtubes and online manuals I believe I did the threading right and used a piece of fabric to test it (I understand the machine is actually not made for leather?), but the upper thread does not catch the lower one and I can't find out what I am doing wrong.

Anyone an idea what I could try?

Malin

English is my second language, hence possible mistakes...