How To "test Drive" A Used Industrial Machine.

[nascenta]

I've searched for a while now and can't find much of a checklist of things that you want to look for when checking out an industrial sewing machine. If there is one please post a link.

I'm looking beyond just having proper thread tension on a sample I sew on the machine; things that might indicate parts that need replacing.

For example:

play in the presser foot height once it is up.

Stitch length that doesn't vary very much.

How to check the effective range of the tension adjuster?

Greater than expected resistance in the mechanism by hand rotating the flywheel.

Do you try to inspect the shuttle hook, or other components? What do you look for?

In other words, I am asking if there exists a list of these useful tests and the desired result or the probable diagnosis if the machine fails the test.

Am I making sense?

This weekend I am going to be purchasing, maybe, my first industrial sewing machine and I want to make a wise, informed decision. I am aware that some of these 'tests' might be model specific, given weaknesses in design, etc. I am looking at a Singer 31-47 made in 1943.

Any insights or direction would be appreciated. Thanks.

Edited March 9, 2016 by nascenta

[Uwe]

If the machines actually sews, that's a really good sign right there. The rest are often details and adjustments, depending on the machine.

Look up some key parts like shuttle hook etc. to see if you can buy them and how much they cost. I would go in with the expectation that you have to replace those parts. Mentally add the cost of these parts to your purchase price and see if you're still comfortable with it. If it turns out you don't have to replace them, good for you.

Some wear parts are often readily available, like hook shuttles, tension assemblies, bobbins, needle bars, etc. I looked up a shuttle hook for your machine and they run $30 or so - that's cheap in the scheme of things.

Other parts are often nearly impossible to get, like hook driving shafts and other internal major components or cast metal housing parts. If those are broken, missing or bent, just walk away.

Old tables and old clutch motors are nearly worthless (at least to me) unless they're super nice. If the machine head is worth bothering with, plan to spend $300 for a nice table and motor in the long run. I stopped bringing nasty tables and clutch motors home. "Just the head, Ma'am" is my recent motto.

Things that are easy to fix: Grime and dirt, oil residue, lack of lubrication (unless they ran the machine dry). Certain missing parts (standard thread tension assembly, bobbins, cover plates, etc.)

Show stoppers in my book: The machine won't turn over at all or hits a hard stop that is not an obvious and easy fix. Bent arm shaft or hook driving shaft. Rusty hook or other signs of water/damp damage (left out in the rain during garage sales, flooded basements, etc.) Seriously abused bolts and screws underneath. Bad repaint to mask problems.

The rest comes down to how much you're willing to gamble. It's good have a cheap machine that works and allows you to tinker with is without feeling super guilty if you mess up. You'll know MUCH more when you buy your next machine, which is only a matter of time.

I'd be leery spending more than $200-300 on a machine like the Singer you're considering, unless it's super nice. Leave room to buy parts, new motor, and pay somebody to give it a thorough cleaning and adjusting at $90/hr.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Uwe

[Tejas]

Buying a used machine, especially from an individual, can be challenging. I've looked at many machines and bought four different used machines from individuals, and all had later discovered surprises such as missing parts or gummy lubrication that interfered with operation. This is what I have done. I'm quite interested in what other folks recommend.

Try to find a manual online, or at least a few pictures. Sometimes machines are not even complete.

Take scissors, small screw drivers, thread and sample material(s), needles and of course the manual. Using different colored thread for needle thread and bobbin thread helps to be able to see the stitches and tension.

Ask the seller to demonstrate the machine if they can -- sometimes the seller is selling for someone else. Look top, bottom and underneath at overall condition and especially for rust. The condition of slots in screws can indicate heavy-handed maintenance. The electrical connections on older machines can also be a problem. Test all the functions you are interested in.

Wind a bobbin with your thread and using your top thread, sew your sample material(s). Verify that the stitches look OK top and bottom.

To test stitch length, set the stitch length, un-thread the needle and with the hand-wheel operate the machine sewing forward, “sewing” a piece of light cardboard or heavy paper for a few inches. Then with the hand-wheel operate the machine in reverse. The needle holes in reverse should perfectly match the holes going forward. Remove the cardboard and measure the actual stitch-length versus the setting. Do that for the start and end range of the range(s) you are interested in.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Tejas

[dikman]

You make me feel ignorant! Two of mine I bought from a chap selling off excess, no longer used surplus machines from his business. He'd run them to prove they stitch and I turned them on to make sure they worked! I may have been lucky, I guess, as he was a nice bloke and the machines had been serviced regularly. The next one I made sure it turned over by hand and that was it. The machine hadn't been used for a few years (?) and the motor and table were cheap **** - but it was a very good price for the head unit. The fourth one (head only) was free, I turned it by hand, which was fine, so figured it was a good price!!

Like I said, I may have been lucky as there were no broken bits (just one very worn shuttle).

[Uwe]

Who you buy the machine from makes a difference. A long-time owner and operator selling some of their working, surplus machines is a different story than some shifty character meeting you at their hoarder's delight storage unit with no power or lights.

"Works great and sews everything" are statements made by people who have no clue about sewing machines. Proceed with extra caution.

If you're buying from a dealer, make them demonstrate that the machine works perfectly and then sew on it yourself.

Price negotiating tactics is also a factor. If you spend an hour verifying that the machine is perfectly adjusted in every way, the seller will be less inclined to give you a price break. A brief sanity check and basic operation check followed by a quick summary of everything that could be wrong with the machine is a better negotiating position.

Personally, I only check for very basic operation and missing/broken parts. If the basics are okay, cleaning, adjustments and fine tuning can be done after you get the machine home.

So far I've been somewhat lucky as well in that all the machines I've bought none of them have turned out to be door stops. I did walk away from a few that were beyond reasonable repair even at a quick glance.

[Uwe]

Just for reference, there's a Singer 31-15 for sale on my local Craigslist for $350 by somebody who used the machine to make a living, so presumable kept it in good working condition:

Edited March 10, 2016 by Uwe

[Wizcrafts]

Several years ago I bought a very, very old Singer 31-15 from a Craigslist seller whose Mother was supposedly the original owner. It was a two hour drive and I arrived late and only turned it on briefly to verify that it wasn't seized and that it sewed manually. Big mistake. The shuttle, race and bobbin case mounting bracket were badly worn. The bobbin case rotated in the housing when I powered it on at home and jammed the shuttle. I had to waste a lot of time and money on all the required replacement parts and adjustments to get it to sew reliably. Now, it is just fine.

Purchase price: $250

Replacement parts: about $100

Time to replace and adjust to get it sewing: 8 hours

Loss: about $300 vs a properly maintained and working machine.

[nascenta]

This is great information! Thank you very much, all of you. This is exactly what I am after.

I recall that someone in the forum has talked about the clearance height of the foot lowering over time (or maybe is was the needle bar) as something wears. Is this an issue?

Wizcraft, those parts that were worn that you mentioned, would they have made themselves known if you had actually sewed with the motor? If you do a visual on the parts what do the worn ones look like compared to healthy ones?

[Wizcrafts]

This is great information! Thank you very much, all of you. This is exactly what I am after.

I recall that someone in the forum has talked about the clearance height of the foot lowering over time (or maybe is was the needle bar) as something wears. Is this an issue?

Wizcraft, those parts that were worn that you mentioned, would they have made themselves known if you had actually sewed with the motor? If you do a visual on the parts what do the worn ones look like compared to healthy ones?

The problem was not visibly obvious. It manifested itself when I got the machine home, powered up the motor and floored it for a couple of seconds. The bobbin case rotated out of its mooring bracket and spun with the shuttle. This caused a lot of damage. As I began the repairs I discovered that some bobbin cases held their locked in position better than others, which popped out easily..

[Uwe]

One quick and easy check you can easily do is to try to wiggle the needle bar by hand front/back and sideways. It should NOT move. A good machine will be "tight" as in turning over easily by hand, but without any noticeable play (the handwheel itself may have a little play as you change direction, but not the feed and needle bars). If you can move the needle bar by hand more than a millimeter, it indicates worn bushings and linkages - the machine in this case is unlikely to make consistent stitches and may require major repair work.

[gottaknow]

Really good advice here. I'll mention one additional thing. When I evaluate a machine for a private party, I always look for screwdriver marks or other tool damage. That doesn't count the screws you expect to see wear on like needle set, throat plate, presser feet etc. A case in point was the machine I did for Venator. By removing just the end cover, almost every screw inside had damage. To me that says someone was doing stuff they shouldn't have been. Turns out that machine had serious issues.

Regards, Eric

[LumpenDoodle2]

I was just about to post what gottaknow said. My first industrial machine had been fiddled with big time, and the timing was way out. It was when I removed the top plate, and looked at the screws holding the camshaft in place, that I found out how much tinkering had been done.

The head of every screw was chewed, and some were not even tightened down properly. No wonder the previous owner couldn't get it to sew.

I had no idea what I was buying, but it only cost me £30, so I didn't mind taking a chance with it.

[Cascabel]

Always bear in mind that there is no such thing as an "Industrial Strength" machine, and just because it is made of cast iron, and painted black does not make it a real industrial machine. Many of them are Grandma's old sewing machine that showed up at a yard sale. EBAY and Craigslist sellers lie !! The old domestic machines are excellent within their limitations, but none of them are real "Leather" or "Industrial" machines. A simple way to tell is that if the motor is the size of a man's fist, and attached to the back of the machine, it is a domestic machine. Real industrial machines have a motor the about the size of your head mounted underneath the table. And real industrial machines are NEVER designed to fold down into the cabinet like a domestic. They are much too heavy !!

[mikesc]

Speaking of the motor ( clutch type ), not only must it run, but some of them don't have any of the usual adjustments, despite being genuine clutch motors for sewing machines..It is very easy to switch it on, sew, test everything, buy the machine, get it home and then discover this lack of adjusters..I recently bought a singer 211u166a, runs great, only one old lady owner from new, always used for no heavier than 3 to 4 oz chrome tan garment leather..I looked it over carefully, test sewed etc, paid the lady and split the head from the table, put both in the car and brought it home and set it up..

Yesterday I set out to change the pulley for smaller one, ( the motor is a Singer clutch motor type 1135 , 370w, 1400rpm ) took off the old pulley ( 122mm, that is about a 5" ), discovered that the shaft is tapered like the EFKA variostop clutch motor on my Juki..So, I took the 45mm pulley off my Juki to see if it would fit, it does, great..

So, you're thinking, where is the problem ?

I'm crouched down under the table, and suddenly , I think .."Where the **** is the belt tension adjustment bolt on this motor ?"..

It doesn't have one, it isn't missing, or fallen off, it has absolutely no provision for one,never did, it fixes under the table like every other clutch industrial sewing machine motor I've ever seen, 3 bolts in the classic configuration, with the machine on a pivot bolt with it's axis parallel with the head ( I've seen a lot of machines for sewing textiles, not seen so many set up for leather ), but I've never seen a motor with no belt tension adjuster bolt bolt built on, nor any flange that says one was ever fitted, so no way to adjust any belt tension ( I can make something to do that easily enough ) but it is weird, and it totally escaped my attention when I bought the machine..It also has no way to adjust the "free play" before the clutch "bites", no adjustment bolt on the case to do that either..

Eventually it is going to get a servo motor, so it is no big deal..but it is weird, and because it ran quietly, and smoothly, I just took a quick look when buying it and went" Oh yeah, clutch motor" and never thought to confirm that it had a belt tension adjuster, or a clutch free play adjuster, because they all do..don't they..except when they don't

Oh, and if the motor has been converted from 3 phase to run on single phase domestic electricity, make sure it has been done safely, my Juki when I bought it, was testimony to how "not to convert from 3 phase to single phase safely", it ran, but the person who had hacked the "conversion" together had no concept of earthing / grounding electrical machinery for safe use, some things you'd be best touching with only electrically insulated gloves, take one of those screwdrivers that tells you if there is current leakage with you, or a test meter, and make sure the "bargain" isn't going to bite you ( or worse ) before you sit down to test it. .

Edited March 10, 2016 by mikesc

[Sonydaze]

Most of my sewing machines have been found via Craigslist ads. Some worked great and some didn't work when I bought them. I live a long ways from an industrial sewing machine mechanic, so I have have become reasonably adept at fixing and tuning them. (I am also lucky to be mechanically inclined.) Probably the most indispensable machine in my shop is a Juki LK-1900HS shape tacker. It wouldn't sew (and I couldn't see what was wrong) when I bought it but the price negotiated was excellent and I took a chance. It took a bit but I got it figured out....they sew poorly unless they are well lubricated and it needed a new hook. If I hadn't taken a chance on the shape tacker, I would still be bar tacking the hard way.

I think the where and how you buy a machine should be determined somewhat by your ability to fix problems with it and how available/expensive service is if you can't. If the machine is going to be important to maintaining your production and you are not adept at servicing it, you may want to purchase from a dealer that will provide service and troubleshooting advise.

Machines that have been unused for awhile are often very dry and need oiling. This affects how they feel when hand turned as well as how they sound. I like to bring oil and see how the feel/sound changes about 10 minutes after being oiled. I also pay attention to see if the wear on the foot treadle matches the story about how much the machine has been used....

[nascenta]

Thank you for that Sonydaze. Does it matter what oil you use to lub these things? What do you use?

[Sonydaze]

I buy gallon jugs of sewing machine oil from an industrial sewing machine supplier. My guess is that it is probably 10 weight mineral oil. Someone else here likely knows for sure if I am correct.

[Cascabel]

I have gotten gallon jugs of sewing machine oil on ebay fairly inexpensively.

[gottaknow]

You often hear the descriptions of industrial machines having come from a factory. Since the majority of folks have never seen a factory, let alone on how we run the machines, I took a bit of video showing one of my binders in action. This is a common machine that you would see for sale in the secondary market. It's a Singer 153K301. It's set up with a right angle binder that we're using to finish the inside seams of one of the carry bags we make. This bag is made for shotgun shells. The fabric is our heavy Tin Cloth. You can see the wax buildup on the feet. This machine runs this speed for 8 hours a day. There's a big difference between a machine that has worked hard in a factory and one that has been abused. This machine is pampered so it can do what it does. I would sell it to anyone here with confidence so it could live out it's days with a servo motor going slowwww. That's not to say all factory machines are decent. I've seen some nightmares that appear on the secondary market.

Regards, Eric

[Wizcrafts]

Eric;

I'd like to put my name in for that machine if they decide to retire it!

[gottaknow]

Eric;

I'd like to put my name in for that machine if they decide to retire it!

You got it! It consumed 500 yards of binding in 4 days. A lot of times you'll find these with the goofy stitch length dial that's part of the hand wheel stripped out. There's any easy work around. The key to running these at high speed is knowing where your real hook timing is due to the gears. I also adjust the safety clutch super loose and the operator oils the bobbin basket with ever change. I rebuilt this particular machine 20 years ago, so it's about due.

Regards, Eric

[Wizcrafts]

I have a long body Singer 139w109, which is basically a stretched out 111w153. I have a Family Sew FS-550s motor with a 50mm pulley feeding the machine. Sometimes I have to sew as slow as she can go. Other times I have a long straight run and I'll crank up the speed and floor it. There's a certain excitement sitting behind a 60 or 70 year old walking foot machine that is roaring down the tracks making 90 miles an hour (actually, about 30 stitches per second), with smoke coming off the titanium coated needle!

I oil the machine every day, plus the bobbin case every bobbin change.

[dikman]

Eric, thank you for that, fascinating stuff. For those like me, who struggle along trying to keep things slow and manageable, it's awesome watching (and hearing) what a walking foot can actually do! An amazing piece of engineering when you think about all those shafts, gears, eccentrics etc. hammering away at high speed!

Wiz, adds new meaning to the term "smokin'!".

[gottaknow]

This video was taken when we were making internment flags for the VA. The machine is a double needle chain stitch. We full-felled the stripes together 100 yards at a time. It takes 10 minutes to join 100 yards. The machine is powered by a clutch motor with an air cylinder actuating the clutch lever and holding it in the run position. The puller on the back is a Zero Max variable speed puller. The ghetto fan cooler kept the puller at a safe temp. This machine is a drop feed, so the machine can't feed the weight of the material. The video starts underneath where there are two loopers, each with a thread. You can then see the folder doing its thing and finally the puller. These Union Special machines have the best oil system I've seen. Enclosed splash system. If a bearing loses oil for a minute, it will seize. I monitored the oil temp to tell me when it was time for an oil change or if something was getting too hot. Machines like this is why there are anti foaming agents in sewing machine oil. Trust me, when these aren't set very precise, you know it immediately.

Regards, Eric

[gottaknow]

I have a long body Singer 139w109, which is basically a stretched out 111w153. I have a Family Sew FS-550s motor with a 50mm pulley feeding the machine. Sometimes I have to sew as slow as she can go. Other times I have a long straight run and I'll crank up the speed and floor it. There's a certain excitement sitting behind a 60 or 70 year old walking foot machine that is roaring down the tracks making 90 miles an hour (actually, about 30 stitches per second), with smoke coming off the titanium coated needle!

I oil the machine every day, plus the bobbin case every bobbin change.

I've not seen one of those. It never ceases to amaze me the number of different machines Singer has produced. No wonder the most frequently asked question here is what machine to buy!

Regards, Eric