Cylinder Arm Machine

[Sidona]

Hello,

 

I'm interested in doing small wallets and possibly briefcases later. I've been looking at the Cowboy 4500 and the Highlead version of the cylinder arm and would appreciate your input.

The leather I'm sewing is pretty thick, I would be sewing 1/4 inch thick leather regularly (4.5-5 oz). 

I've noticed that the Highlead is much more expensive than the Cowboy, but I've heard the parts are easier to order. One person told me the Cowboy can take Juki parts though. However I like the price of the Cowboy- essentially I can get the 16 inch arm for the same price a Highlead 9 inch would take if I purchased locally.

Also the Needle Positioner feature comes with the Highlead and I can imagine it being useful for a novice like myself, but the Cowboy salesman didn't know what a needle positioner was. Any thoughts on that? Both come with a servo motor.

I've read some other forums but would appreciate your input.

Perhaps my biggest concern is service and support since I'm new to industrial sewing and leathercrafting. There will be issues and I know I'll have questions.

Thank you so much for your support.

Sidona

[MADMAX22]

What cowboy dealer are you speaking of? I would talk to Bob here on the forums about what is best for your situation. 

When you say 1/4" 5oz do you mean one or the other or two layers of 5oz? I will say the 4500 is not really suited for wallets and thinner leather. It can do it but I think something like the 227r would be more up your ally for those items you describe. 

Ive done a few motorcycle seats stitching about 6oz of upholstery leather with 138 thread on my 4500 and it does ok but its not the easiest thing to do. 

[Sidona]

Thanks for the quick response! It is 1 to 3 layers of 4.5 to 5 ounce leather (each layer is that weight). I'm actually lining the wallet with a very thin layer of leather on top of that. Altogether it is about 1/4 inch thick. Right now I'm doing the "Roy Rogers" stitch by hand with Tiger thread and like the look of it so I'm trying to figure out how to do that with a machine. Also it was Toledo Sewing Company whom I called for the Cowboy and the salesman wasn't familiar with the needle positioner.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Sidona

[MADMAX22]

Thats kind of odd, pretty sure Bob knows what a needle positioner is must of been one of his inexperienced employees. The only issue I would see is where your stitching one layer of 5oz. That is the very bottom limit of the 4500. I have never used a needle positioner so I cant comment on there effectiveness. I know I get by without one.

Im sure the more experienced guys will chime in soon with more suggestions. 

[brmax]

Probably don't want a positioner with these extra heavy machines, as they are generally setup with a reducing pulley, drive system.

With this system your foot controlled speed of the needle and its position is relatively easy. I think the machine frames are about the same size with their capabilities as both resemble each other and so the, accessories and ability to access support is a key point.

The site here has a lot of great stitchers and some with extensive knowledge of many machines so a question can be addressed pretty quick on your selection. This is not a one brand place here for sure and there are so many machines finds in one month its difficult to not like them all for one reason or another.

As mentioned the thread size you select is another key point, this may lead you to a style you want or not in projects.

Another point and this could use clarification, is the machine head looked over and tweaked or tuned "before" its at your business doorstep and at what level is this carried out.

other than that, the pros cans chime in, also their are companies in the upper heading and other members that are equipment dealers so welcome here and enjoy.

Floyd

[Wizcrafts]

If you are only sewing up to a quarter inch, or so, the lighter duty, 10" arm CB227R is fully capable of handling your work. This is basically a clone of the Consew 227R machine. It has triple (compound) feed, uses standard walking foot needles and handles #138 thread with ease. A knowledgeable dealer may be able to tweak the clearance of the hook/needle/opener to allow the machine to sew with #207 on top. But, this was not what it was made to sew with.

I sew all thicknesses of material and leather. I prefer to use a standard walking foot machine for anything under 1/4 inch. After that I move up to my Cowboy CB4500. My walking foot machine handles bonded nylon thread from #69 through #138. The CB4500 prefers thread sizes starting at #138, although I have managed to dumb it down to sew with #92 thread.

As for positioning motors, they are normally only used in factories, or by sewers who cannot manually control the motor speed pedal slow enough to stop where they want it to stop. Their only purpose is to force stop the machine with the needle either all the way up or all the way down. I have a servo motor on my walking foot machine and can easily sew slowly enough to stop with the needle up or down. I can also do the same thing with the clutch motor driven 42-5 machine I use for chaps and seat covers. But, that's a whole nuther story.

[dikman]

I'd like to add to what Wiz said re-needle positioners - if you're sewing slowly I don't reckon you'll need one. I tried one but didn't really like it, because I sew slow stopping where I want has never been an issue.

[steveleather]

I agree with above comments , wiz and others know their stuff and wanted to add that I personally settled on the artisan 335b. It's just like the cb227r. I never hear too much about artisan seems like people lean more towards cowboy but I'm sure both machines are equally awesome and I can tell you Jerry from artisan is very nice and will always be willing to answer tech questions even on a Sunday while not working

[RockyAussie]

16 minutes ago, steveleather said:

I agree with above comments , wiz and others know their stuff and wanted to add that I personally settled on the artisan 335b. It's just like the cb227r. I never hear too much about artisan seems like people lean more towards cowboy but I'm sure both machines are equally awesome and I can tell you Jerry from artisan is very nice and will always be willing to answer tech questions even on a Sunday while not working

I would have thought the cb227r was more suitable for heavier bag work but possibly a bit short in the arm sometimes. For wallets I would favour the artisan 335b. From what I see it looks like a very useful machine but not for heavier holsters and such. My preference would be go with the 335b and go up to 4500 in order to cover most bases.

[mikesc]

Needle positioners..I have one ( EFKA ) on my Juki, which can be switched to varieties of "on" or "entirely off"..I leave it at "entirely off", better to control what the needle is doing yourself than allow the machine to decide that it needs to make an "extra stitch" so as to stop with the needle in the pre-set position of up or down..One day ( when I can access the Juki easily again, it is behind a mountain of boxes and stuff on my veranda at the moment ),I'll take the NPS off and sell it as a separate item..or more likely, just scrap it ( Eric "gottaknow" says it sounds like the noise mine makes indicates that, although it works, it is ready to soon join the great heap of scrap items to be used in sculptures in the workshop )..For high speed factory ( and especially textile garment work ) they are useful, but, most folks on here ( with the notable exception of "Trox", who uses some, and who seems to like them , especially the EFKAs ) don't use them even when their motors ( servo or clutch ) have them fitted..

But..YMMV :)

Edited August 10, 2016 by mikesc

[Constabulary]

I also have removed the NPS from my servo - useless at slow speed (for me). Safe the money and buy a flip down edge guide instead - or thread or needles

Edited August 10, 2016 by Constabulary

[Gregspitz]

great needle position motor on my Techsew machines one with a speed reducer and the 2750 pro without a speed reducer..makes life NICE and not an expensive upgrade.

Call Ron at Techsew

[Sidona]

11 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Hmmm in reference to your post copied below.  I want a cylinder arm because it seems most convenient. The 227r is only a short arm and I'd like a long arm machine so that I can make computer bags later but right now all I'm doing is a few layers of 5oz leather. Also I like the "Roy Rogers" stitch with Tiger thread for the heavy duty wallets I'm making now. This is the kind of thread shoe cobblers apparently used and almost looks hand made on the Highlead except that the stitching is perfect  Can the 227r give you that same stitch ?I'd rather go more heavy duty but not if it is going to give me problems when only sewing 1/8 to 2/8 thick leather. Just as a side note I did try the highlead in the store and it worked fantastic during the short time I tried it. Unfortunately I don't think there are any roadshows near Washington state where I can try out different machines to see for myself which Cowboy would work best.

"If you are only sewing up to a quarter inch, or so, the lighter duty, 10" arm CB227R is fully capable of handling your work. This is basically a clone of the Consew 227R machine. It has triple (compound) feed, uses standard walking foot needles and handles #138 thread with ease. A knowledgeable dealer may be able to tweak the clearance of the hook/needle/opener to allow the machine to sew with #207 on top. But, this was not what it was made to sew with."

 

Thanks for the quick response! It is 1 to 3 layers of 4.5 to 5 ounce leather (each layer is that weight). I'm actually lining the wallet with a very thin layer of leather on top of that. Altogether it is about 1/4 inch thick. Right now I'm doing the "Roy Rogers" stitch by hand with Tiger thread and like the look of it so I'm trying to figure out how to do that with a machine. 

[brmax]

Sidona to stay inline with your project description the machines really cannot be compared in price completing your capability needs, so being me, hope this helps. The CB4500 compares in work capability with GA2688-1 and this is for a 16" cylinder arm and these are a XHD class machine this also is available in other brands talked about on here as you may know.  If at all considering a short arm version machine then to be fair all other Highlead cylinder machines to my knowledge are all in the thread size 138 and lighter as the GC2268 this has a comparison from several companies, keeping the thread size restrictions in mind as this is most important. I'm trying to keep in mind if thread size wont run in the bobbin I'm not saying it.

To bump the XHD class machines we can change thread colors to tone down the looks if needed but its a serious choice that cannot be changed with smaller thread size in short order.

If leather 1/4 thick sewing 50% of the time then a reducer should be standard purchased item in my op.

have a great day

Floyd

 

[Sidona]

Thank you everyone for all of your feedback. Just to make sure I'm clear, can a 3500 or 4500 cowboy or the Highlead GC 2268 do 1/4 inch thick and lighter leather (single layer and then up to 3 layers of 4.5-5 ounce leather) regularly or am I better off getting a lighter machine (as some mentioned)? Does anyone know of leather roadshows that take place in washington state where I could try multiple machines out?

[Wizcrafts]

8 hours ago, Sidona said:

Thank you everyone for all of your feedback. Just to make sure I'm clear, can a 3500 or 4500 cowboy or the Highlead GC 2268 do 1/4 inch thick and lighter leather (single layer and then up to 3 layers of 4.5-5 ounce leather) regularly or am I better off getting a lighter machine (as some mentioned)? Does anyone know of leather roadshows that take place in washington state where I could try multiple machines out?

These machines "can" sew light weight leathers if you adjust them properly. This means reducing all spring tensions for lighter thread, possibly removing the feed dog and using a flat slotted throat plate (rendering it into a dual feed machine), getting small size needles (not available in leather point below #23) and backing off the top pressure screw.

In my opinion, unless you intend to sew with #207 or thicker thread, the medium duty walking foot machines are a better match for work that is mostly below 1/4 inch thickness. And, if you sew thin leather, the lighter duty parts are less likely to eat it. These machines readily handle #138 bonded thread, which has 22 pounds tensile strength, per stitch.

The 441 clones are designed for very slow sewing of dense and thick leather and cloth, using very large thread (up to #415). They are not built for light duty sewing and need to be dumbed down to do so. If you will be routinely sewing at and above a quarter inch, these machines are your better choice. They can lay a line of #277 thread inside the layers, which has 44 pounds strength per stitch.

[Sidona]

thank you so much!