Right oil??

[catskin]

A bit off topic because it doesn't sew leather.  But we are looking at a JUKI MO-358 sub class 8 serger. It calls for defrix num.2 oil  in the JUKI manual.  What would be the equal to that oil?       And if anybody has an estimate of what it should be worth.

[brmax]

I have some of the juki oil, and purchased it. I have heard seems like a million people say just use Lilly white, but to steer correct it may be a good call to one of the pro shop guys here in participating helping answer and selling machines.

good luck

Floyd

[gottaknow]

I've bought 35 or so new Jukis is the last few years. I spoke to Juki about oil and Lilly white is fine and won't void any warranties. I use it in all of my machines. 

Regards, Eric 

[dikman]

I just looked up the MSDS for Lilly White oil. It consists of two mineral oils, but what is really interesting is that it's an ISO 22 oil - in other words it's hydraulic oil.

Just thought you'd like to know .

[RockyAussie]

1 hour ago, dikman said:

I just looked up the MSDS for Lilly White oil. It consists of two mineral oils, but what is really interesting is that it's an ISO 22 oil - in other words it's hydraulic oil.

Just thought you'd like to know .

Interesting find, but I would point out for any beginners that if tempted to use hydraulic oil that the red stuff could be disastrous with any leaking down onto the leather. I have often been worried after a good oiling, about the transfer onto the products being made and I can say that the Singer sewing oil has always dried without leaving any sign. I have no idea if it"s possible to get any readily available non coloured hydraulic oil. Best Regards Brian.

[gottaknow]

Lilly white is used for its ease of cleaning with dry cleaning solvents that we use in factories to remove oil spots from fabric. It's also non-detergent so it doesn't foam in a splash type oil system. I also use it to lube air cylinders in atomizing type oilers. As for the leather we use in our luggage factory, it is dyed and finished before we sew it and the oil is simply wiped off for cleaning. Many garments purchased at the retail level have had oil spots removed at the factory. Juki has come out with "oill- less" heads in recent years. They will not have the life expectancy of older machines using oil.

Regards, Eric

[catskin]

Would Lily white be the same as the regular sewing machine oil that Bob Kovar sent for my Cowboy 4500?

[gottaknow]

26 minutes ago, catskin said:

Would Lily white be the same as the regular sewing machine oil that Bob Kovar sent for my Cowboy 4500?

I assume it is, though I don't know what Bob sells. It's pretty much been the industry standard sewing machine oil for a very long time.

Regards, Eric

[Wizcrafts]

52 minutes ago, catskin said:

Would Lily white be the same as the regular sewing machine oil that Bob Kovar sent for my Cowboy 4500?

Yes, it is the same oil. I use his oil in all of my numerous sewing machines.

[catskin]

Thank you all for the help!!!

[dikman]

Rocky, the reason I (now) know a bit about hydraulic oils is because I just bought a new metal-turning lathe and they specified an ISO oil. I figured that a good motor oil should be fine, but started doing a bit of research first and realised I didn't know as much as I thought I did! The recommended oil is an ISO 68 (which is roughly equivalent to SAE30 motor oil in weight, but quite different in composition). Motor oil, amongst other things, can attack brass/red metal fittings, so is not a good idea in a lathe gearbox.

ISO oils generally don't have a lot of the additives that are in car oils, have anti-corrosion additives and are designed to withstand high pressure/temperatures. I bought some Penrite ISO 68 and was surprised at how thin it is, and to answer your question It's also clear.  An ISO 22 is equivalent to SAE 0W - 5W, so is pretty thin!

I'm not sure about staining (I suspect it probably will) but I'll be using this in my machines from now on (partly 'cos I bought 5 litres of it!).

Edited October 20, 2016 by dikman

[Art]

EVERYBODY uses Lille White oil.  It is a 50/50 mix of light and heavy mineral oil, and here is the kicker, no detergents.  In the "old" days (Wiz and I will remember this) hydraulic oil was just mineral oil.  Nowadays it has detergents and additives, a ton of them to extend the life of the oil and give it better performance characteristics for automatic transmissions and all other hydraulic systems.  By the way, ISO 22, the number 22 is just the viscosity of the oil usually in centistrokes (cSt or  mm²/s); it is actually ISO 3448 - ISO VG 22.  Any wonder why they use just ISO 22?  Defrix No.2 oil is just mineral oil blended to Juki's 169 specification, which just happens to be very close to ISO VG 22 AND drum roll, you guessed it SAE No. 2.  So as the machinery gets more complex, the specifications must get more precise, but lets face it folks, it is just No. 2 mineral oil.

Art

And THAT is more than you ever wanted to know.

[gottaknow]

6 hours ago, Art said:

EVERYBODY uses Lille White oil.  It is a 50/50 mix of light and heavy mineral oil, and here is the kicker, no detergents.  In the "old" days (Wiz and I will remember this) hydraulic oil was just mineral oil.  Nowadays it has detergents and additives, a ton of them to extend the life of the oil and give it better performance characteristics for automatic transmissions and all other hydraulic systems.  By the way, ISO 22, the number 22 is just the viscosity of the oil usually in centistrokes (cSt or  mm²/s); it is actually ISO 3448 - ISO VG 22.  Any wonder why they use just ISO 22?  Defrix No.2 oil is just mineral oil blended to Juki's 169 specification, which just happens to be very close to ISO VG 22 AND drum roll, you guessed it SAE No. 2.  So as the machinery gets more complex, the specifications must get more precise, but lets face it folks, it is just No. 2 mineral oil.

Art

And THAT is more than you ever wanted to know.

I never get tired of learning Art. I just gottaknow. 

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

I fully agree with everything being said here in terms of oil, BUT if you really must, why try and find 'the equivalent' and just buy what you are asking for?

Juki part number is MDFRX2700C0 for  NEW DEFRIX OIL NO.2, comes in a 700ml bottle for about $20.

Not the best 'value' as a gallon of stainless lilly white is about the same price, but if you want OEM original, get the Juki oil for peace of mind.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[TinkerTailor]

Back in the day, If mineral oil was not available or too expensive, bone oil was the lube of choice, with almond and olive being second and third.

Here is an except from "Manufacture of Lubricants, Shoe Polishes and Leather Dressings" a 1906 english translation of the 6th edition of an older german book:

Sewing Machine Oils Manufacture1906.pdf

Edited October 20, 2016 by TinkerTailor

[dikman]

Art, thanks mate, always good to expand one's knowledge.

Gregg, problem I've got is that I've no idea if Lilly White is even available here. There's only one sewing machine place I can think of and I think they sell their own brand of oil. Hence me trying to find out just what the stuff is so that I can get something close.

TT, that document is interesting (but I don't think I'll be trying to duplicate the recipes in a hurry!). We know a clockmaker (semi-retired now, but still fixing clocks, including ours). I once asked him what he uses to oil his clocks and he said the best thing is Sperm Whale oil - if you can get it!

 

[mikesc]

@dikman..try asking for "Vaseline oil"*, or "white cycle oil", or "white compressor oil" ( if the latter, tell them that you want the kind that goes into the "inline airtool oilers"..the ones that you put in your airline so as to be able to run air wrenches etc..You can get it in 250ml upto 30 litres..it comes in "clear" ( white ) or "straw"...you want "clear"..it is what is known as "lilly white" in the USA..Lots of companies "rebrand" ( pour it into smaller containers with their own labels on, and hugely increase the price ) "Vaseline oil".

*yes it can get you some "remarks" if you ask for it by that name..

[TinkerTailor]

All you are looking for is highly refined mineral oil. Any oil of the right viscosity will work, even olive oil. The Lilly White is called that because it has been highly refined and filtered to remove contaminants. The reason for this is clean-up, as Eric pointed out, the contaminents/additiives in other oils will stain and are very hard to get out.  Thus specially filtered and purified oils, white as a lilly, were produced for sewing because they needed a non staining oil.

Pure refined clear mineral oil is also used by veterinarian and farmers for various purposes in cattle and horses. It is used as a hand/instrument lubricant for instances when you gotta go into where the sun don't shine. It is also put in cattle oilers too help keep off the flies. Check with vets and farm supply places, you may find it in farmer sized jugs and farmer pricing.......

[mikesc]

Olive oil will eventually polymerise ( "gum up" and leave deposits ) if exposed to air..and it isn't stable at higher temperatures ( like those you can get in bearings ) it is actually full of contaminants , run a chromatogram on it to see..the contaminants are what give the olive oils from various localities their different tastes..Olive oil is also not a "mineral oil" ( "mineral oil" is normally used to designate a petroleum derived product ) ..it is an "organic oil, as Sunflower oil, linseed oil etc.
"Vaseline oil" is another name for what the vets and farmers use...it is a mineral oil..and is stable at higher temperatures and pressures ( like those in bearings ) than organically derived oils, and it does not polymerise, so no danger of gumming up or deposits.it is also not at all acidic, which almost all organic oils are slightly..so it will not "attack" metal..It is also not usually alkaline ( it is made to be PH neutral ) so it wont attack natural fibres like cotton or the collagens in leather ..

Edited October 21, 2016 by mikesc

[TinkerTailor]

1 minute ago, mikesc said:

Olive oil will eventually polymerise ( "gum up" and leave deposits ) if exposed to air..and it isn't stable at higher temperatures ( like those you can get in bearings ) it is actually full of contaminants , run a chromatogram on it to see..the contaminants are what give the olive oils from various localities their different tastes..Olive oil is also not a "mineral oil" ( mineral oil is used to designate a petroleum derived product ) ..it is an "organic oil, as Sunflower oil, linseed oil etc.
"Vaseline oil" is another name for what the vets and farmers use...it is a mineral oil.

I was not saying that olive oil is a mineral oil, only that ANY oil of the right viscosity will lubricate the machine properly, organic or inorganic, olive oil included. What i was pointing out is that the reason people use Lilly white sewing mineral oil is less to do with lubrication properties and more to do with clean up and longevity of the lube compared to the other lubricating options.

True, any vegetable based oil will go rancid and is full of contaminants. It will lubricate a machine though. It will end up building up inside and gumming up the works as well as staining what it drips on, but it will work as a lube for now.  Automatic transmission fluid will also work great as a lube, so long as you only work with red leather.....

Now how to get pure refined mineral oil when in an area without a sewing machine dealer, and not pay 20 bux for 8 ounces in the crafters size bottle at Michaels.

[mikesc]

I was not saying that olive oil is a mineral oil, only that ANY oil of the right viscosity will lubricate the machine properly, organic or inorganic, olive oil included.

I know that you weren't :) ..I posted that clarification for the benefit of anyone reading who did not know that. :)

Now how to get pure refined mineral oil when in an area without a sewing machine dealer, and not pay 20 bux for 8 ounces in the crafters size bottle at Michaels.

Buy it from a company who sells oil for oil line units for compressed air tools, cost will be around €15.oo per litre ( 2.2 UK pints ) if bought per litre..around $10.00 to $12.00 per litre if you buy a 30 litre container.

Edited October 21, 2016 by mikesc

[TinkerTailor]

Interestingly that book recommends neetsfoot oil for lube because it doesn't go rancid like olive oil.

[mikesc]

Yeah, problem is that "neetsfoot oil" is a"bit like "megilp" ( fine art term often seen , no true chemical definition ) ..the name can actually cover a multitude of sins..
How many feet has a Neet got, cloven or solid like a horse, or pads like a dog ? ;)

Edited October 21, 2016 by mikesc

[gottaknow]

I pay $14 a gallon for my Lilly White. We buy volume of course, but it's the same oil that most will pay twice as much for. On the other hand, the price of my Silicone thread lube has jumped up to $60 in the last few years, a good $20 more than I used to pay. Not really sure for the cause of that increase, but we have to use it on several high speed joining operations to keep down needle heat. It does stain, so we test it on everything first.

Regards, Eric

[Constabulary]

Eric - I`m not sewing at high speed and don´t use the mentioned oil or lubricant but when the Lilly White Oil does not stain can´t you use it as thread lubricant as well?