Knowledge vs. Experience

[immiketoo]

Knowledge vs. experience. 

Throughout life, you've heard the terms book smart or street smart. These are equivalent to knowledge vs experience, and I believe experience is the greater of the two.

Don't get me wrong, knowledge is important and I'll go back to that in a bit, but experience pays dividends in ways knowledge can not. An example I read recently illustrates this perfectly: Who would be the better musician? A man who knows all there is to know about music, composing, theory etc, but has never played an instrument, or the man who has no formal education in music, but has been playing the instrument of his choice for years. 

The man who has been playing will have learned from experience how to match pitch,tempo and rhythm, and more importantly, he will have developed ability to feel the music and the stamina and muscle memory required to play, where the man with only knowledge will not.

Now, imagine being able to combine these two men into a single, well trained musician. Knowledge PLUS experience is the key to mastery. 

I believe the same can be said for any profession, especially leatherwork. I have purchased and read many of the books available about leatherwork. One in particular, Making Cases Vol. 1, was one of the first books I read. With my newfound knowledge, I set straight to work and much to my surprise, I failed to apply that knowledge to actual leather successfully. My project had so many flaws, it could only be considered a failure.

However, I now knew how NOT to do it, and I had gained experience. As time passed, my failures became less common and my successes increased specifically because of experience. The knowledge from the book was exactly the same. The words hadn't changed one bit.

But then a strange thing happened. Because memory is fleeting, I happened to re-read one of those books and very much to my surprise, I had a substantially deeper understanding of what was written. The words were the same, but my experience allowed me to see more of what I believe the original intent of the author was.

The practical application of both knowledge and experience resulted in MORE experience, and thus, a greater understanding of the knowledge. It sounds like a chicken or egg scenario, but its actually more akin to a symbiotic relationship, in which each element needs the other to reach its greatest potential.

The point, if there is one, is that I encourage you to try something even if it's outside your comfort zone. I was reminded of this on a recent order, and much to my surprise, I found that I enjoyed the project despite my early misgivings, which were based on a lack of experience.

Maybe I'll read that book again...

 

 

[YinTx]

All good points, but sometimes I prefer knowledge.  Consider living vicariously through other's experiences.  Example:  One can see others getting STD's and pregnancies and addictions, and avoid having to gain that experience directly simply by knowledge.  I for one would not like to have to learn how to avoid such things only by experience, knowledge is sufficient for me, thank you.  Single experiences can be detrimental or have long term consequences.

When it comes to leather, it helps me to have knowledge before trying to gain experience.  If I just picked up some tools and some leather and tried to do Sheridan work, I'd fail miserably and probably never pick it up again.  Reading, watching others, gaining knowledge on how it is done (wait... you wet the leather?  all this time I thought you were trying to keep water away from leather!) prior to gaining any experience was vital to any chance at a successful outcome.  Improvement however required experience.  And feedback, with more experience.  Add to that additional knowledge watching others share good and bad experiences (gaining knowledge vicariously again) allows even more improvements.

At a certain point, gaining additional knowledge provides little incremental gains.  It's time to go into production!  Just $0.02, thanks for letting me philosophize for a bit on a Friday afternoon!

YinTx

[alpha2]

All true. I think that experience can be related to wisdom. As related to knowledge. (Knowledge is is being aware that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing to not use it in a fruit salad). You can see where experience could be substituted for wisdom there. My older sibling was all over book smarts.  My knowledgeable brother has actually DONE basically...zilch. He did read all about it, though. You wouldn't want to turn him loose on a project he had read all about. After a lifetime in aviation, he was incredulous that I didn't play around with Microsoft Flight Simulator. Really. I tried to explain that if I wanted to have a flight experience, I would go to my hangar and roll the plane out. I'm not sure he ever got it. I have to say, my experience has paralleled Mike's experience. I can only read so much before I need to do it wrong a few times, to learn what doesn't work. "I have not failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that don't work", - Thomas Edison. 

Now, having said all that, this forum is a real shortcut to better leatherwork. It's like book learning and experience all wrapped into one resource. But, I'm still learning a lot by messing up on a regular basis. I don't expect that to change soon!

Jeff

[Sheilajeanne]

I used to have this as my sig when I was moderating on the Allnurses site: 

Good judgement and the ability to make right choices comes with experience.  Experience comes from making wrong choices....

 

And, from a famous SF author:

Nitwit ideas are for emergencies. You use them when you've got nothing else to try. If they work, they go in the Book. Otherwise you follow the Book, which is largely a collection of nitwit ideas that worked.

-- Larry Niven / The Mote in God's Eye (1974)

 

[alpha2]

Wow! Sheila, that totally works for me!

Jeff

[immiketoo]

16 hours ago, YinTx said:

All good points, but sometimes I prefer knowledge.  Consider living vicariously through other's experiences.  Example:  One can see others getting STD's and pregnancies and addictions, and avoid having to gain that experience directly simply by knowledge.  I for one would not like to have to learn how to avoid such things only by experience, knowledge is sufficient for me, thank you.  Single experiences can be detrimental or have long term consequences.

When it comes to leather, it helps me to have knowledge before trying to gain experience.  If I just picked up some tools and some leather and tried to do Sheridan work, I'd fail miserably and probably never pick it up again.  Reading, watching others, gaining knowledge on how it is done (wait... you wet the leather?  all this time I thought you were trying to keep water away from leather!) prior to gaining any experience was vital to any chance at a successful outcome.  Improvement however required experience.  And feedback, with more experience.  Add to that additional knowledge watching others share good and bad experiences (gaining knowledge vicariously again) allows even more improvements.

At a certain point, gaining additional knowledge provides little incremental gains.  It's time to go into production!  Just $0.02, thanks for letting me philosophize for a bit on a Friday afternoon!

YinTx

What you're talking about is common sense.  I don't need experience to know I don't want to be shot, however, If I am shot and survive, I'll have experience in dealing with it should it happen again

15 hours ago, alpha2 said:

All true. I think that experience can be related to wisdom. As related to knowledge. (Knowledge is is being aware that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing to not use it in a fruit salad). You can see where experience could be substituted for wisdom there. My older sibling was all over book smarts.  My knowledgeable brother has actually DONE basically...zilch. He did read all about it, though. You wouldn't want to turn him loose on a project he had read all about. After a lifetime in aviation, he was incredulous that I didn't play around with Microsoft Flight Simulator. Really. I tried to explain that if I wanted to have a flight experience, I would go to my hangar and roll the plane out. I'm not sure he ever got it. I have to say, my experience has paralleled Mike's experience. I can only read so much before I need to do it wrong a few times, to learn what doesn't work. "I have not failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that don't work", - Thomas Edison. 

Now, having said all that, this forum is a real shortcut to better leatherwork. It's like book learning and experience all wrapped into one resource. But, I'm still learning a lot by messing up on a regular basis. I don't expect that to change soon!

Jeff

Yeah, I can see how real flight is better than video flight

14 hours ago, Sheilajeanne said:

I used to have this as my sig when I was moderating on the Allnurses site: 

Good judgement and the ability to make right choices comes with experience.  Experience comes from making wrong choices....

 

And, from a famous SF author:

Nitwit ideas are for emergencies. You use them when you've got nothing else to try. If they work, they go in the Book. Otherwise you follow the Book, which is largely a collection of nitwit ideas that worked.

-- Larry Niven / The Mote in God's Eye (1974)

 

I love it.

[chrisash]

The surprising thing is that so much knowledge is thrown away as past history and technology has moved on

Take for instance the ships Captains of three or four hundred years ago, who went on maybe two year missions outside what we call civilisation, who had the skills and knowledge to fight everything thrown against them, those skills are now lost to mankind, just like building Stonehenge or  even further back the ability of the Bronze age to make tools

Today my tiny knowledge of Leatherwork has come from two main sources Leatherworker and Youtube and I must thank the various authors who contributed especially Nigel Armitage

 

[immiketoo]

While technology has advanced, I am not convinced that society has evolved.  In fact, one could argue we have devolved, and you'd only have to look at the writings of Plato, or Aristotle, Benjamin Franklin or any of the great minds throughout history to support your argument.  Most people now days have very specialized knowledge but lack experience.  For example, I know someone who has earned her doctorate, and calls herself a genius, but she can't figure out how to remove the monthly train pass from the plastic backing it came on.  Or whose sole conflict resolution skill is crying and slamming the door behind her.  Genius.

[billybopp]

I like to think that knowledge is the result of experience, either your own or somebody else's.  The main thing that makes experience superior to somebody else's passed on knowledge revolves around this imperfect thing that we call communication.

Imagine if the technology existed that would allow a direct brain link from one person to another.  Knowledge could be passed along wholly intact, including for example what it feels like to hold a swivel knife just right or hit a stamp just the right way with just the right power.  It'd be easy peasy!  But that doesn't exist, so we have to rely on communication to pass along that knowledge through some form of communication, whether one-way or a two-way exchange, and in many possible formats such as verbal, written, pictorial, video - any of which could be one or two way.  So, we're limited in obtaining knowledge outside our own experience by the communication skill of another person.  Furthermore, we need to find somebody that communicates in a way that works for us.   What is perfectly clear communication to one person might be pretty much incomprehensible to another, whether because of the format or the style of the communicator.

Fortunately, we have people with experience and the knowledge gained from it that are willing and able to pass that along as best they can to us, imperfect tho it may be.  Their knowledge is a GREAT shortcut for us!  To pick on @immiketoo for a minute.  Bad as it was, imagine how long it would have taken to make that first case that he mentioned without the benefit of Stohlman's book - and how many bad versions it may have taken to get an acceptable result.   Even then, some techniques and ideas may never have occurred to him!  Also fortunately, @immiketoois a pretty smart guy who got it figured out and probably added some new knowledge through his experience, and that of others .. and is willing and able to communicate it to the rest of us.

- Bill   

 

[immiketoo]

8 minutes ago, billybopp said:

I like to think that knowledge is the result of experience, either your own or somebody else's.  The main thing that makes experience superior to somebody else's passed on knowledge revolves around this imperfect thing that we call communication.

Imagine if the technology existed that would allow a direct brain link from one person to another.  Knowledge could be passed along wholly intact, including for example what it feels like to hold a swivel knife just right or hit a stamp just the right way with just the right power.  It'd be easy peasy!  But that doesn't exist, so we have to rely on communication to pass along that knowledge through some form of communication, whether one-way or a two-way exchange, and in many possible formats such as verbal, written, pictorial, video - any of which could be one or two way.  So, we're limited in obtaining knowledge outside our own experience by the communication skill of another person.  Furthermore, we need to find somebody that communicates in a way that works for us.   What is perfectly clear communication to one person might be pretty much incomprehensible to another, whether because of the format or the style of the communicator.

Fortunately, we have people with experience and the knowledge gained from it that are willing and able to pass that along as best they can to us, imperfect tho it may be.  Their knowledge is a GREAT shortcut for us!  To pick on @immiketoo for a minute.  Bad as it was, imagine how long it would have taken to make that first case that he mentioned without the benefit of Stohlman's book - and how many bad versions it may have taken to get an acceptable result.   Even then, some techniques and ideas may never have occurred to him!  Also fortunately, @immiketoois a pretty smart guy who got it figured out and probably added some new knowledge through his experience, and that of others .. and is willing and able to communicate it to the rest of us.

- Bill   

 

Ive often wished for the mind meld, or brain plug in to be real.  Like the Matrix.  Apoch, I'm gonna need a program on pattern making and Mexican braid. Insert digital noises and pictures of code flowing, and boom.  I know braiding as well as Bruce Grant!  Sadly, we all pick up things in one of the three forms of learning.  Auditory, visual or haptic.  Some are better at one or the other, and I believe a person needs all three to full understand a concept.  Like you said, downloading what I feel under my knife or what Peter Main feels under his would probably be drastically different but imagine if you could have that kind of zero loss transfer.  We could build the pyramids or the acropolis in Athens again.  We could discuss philosophy directly from the Greek philosophers.  What a world it would be.  

got it figured out and probably added some new knowledge through his experience, and that of others

^^^ This, is something that I will expound upon more very soon.  It's interesting that you mentioned it, because I have some very strong feelings about this specific point.

Personally, I'd download from Plato, DaVinci and Nikola Tesla.  Add Mozart and I'd be set.

[JLSleather]

Don't forget inspiration.  We all know that "A squared + B squared= C squared.  And we can all read it and "know"it.  And we can work with it for a while, and "get" it.  But what level of GENIUS does that require to be sitting under a shade tree, with someone playing the flute over there, and it "occurs" to you that "the square of the hypotenuse of a right angle is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides" ?@!

I'm with Sam Andrews -- I can show you leatherwork in a short time, the rest is PRACTICE. I'm pretty good at it, but I didn't INVENT any of it.

 

[immiketoo]

Inspiration is different.  I carved this piece very early on in my career, and I have tried several times to repeat it, although not recently.  I was in the zone when I did it and all further attempts have been unsuccessful.  I can't even remember how I did some of it, but I do remember the feeling I had while carving it.  Driven.  Inspired.  Almost like a runner's high.  Weird.  Now, looking at it, I can see all the flaws and areas I'd do differently, but I still feel like this was a milestone in my carving career.  I was truly and unequivocally inspired.  I exceeded my knowledge and experience with this piece, and I believe that is why my later attempts at this piece were failures.  

[Sheilajeanne]

Mike, interesting to hear you say that! I had a similar experience one day when I was home sick from school. I began sketching pictures of some of my favourite actors, and in 20 or 30 minutes had accomplished what normally would take me hours!  It hasn't really happened to me since then, at least not to the same degree.

Much later, I came across a book called 'Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain'. The right side of the brain is the spatial and visual side, the side involved in art and architecture. We normally work mostly out of the left side of the brain, the side involved in using language and logic. 

That book also talks about an artist who was giving lessons to his class. He said there always came a point in his demonstration of how to paint where he just had to shut up and paint - he couldn't talk at the same time! It shows how it is difficult to use the right side of the brain and the left side at the same time, even if you ARE an experience artist, who is used to using the right side to create pictures.

This could be what happened that day when you were so 'inspired'. You were able to access that part of your brain in a way you hadn't done before. In order to unlock this side of the brain, the book tells you to draw a chair upside down, so that the logical side of the brain doesn't come into play. There's a huge difference between knowing what something looks like and actually SEEING it. For instance,  people often draw Christmas trees as triangles with a trunk and downward-sloping branches. But if you really look at an evergreen, the branches slope UPWARDS. This helps them shed the snow - when weighed down, the bend in the branch acts like a spring to snap the branch back into an upward position, shedding the snow in the process.

Anyway, I highly recommend the book for anyone who is interested in figure carving, or improving their artistic skills with leatherwork!

https://www.amazon.ca/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=draw+on+the+right+side+of+the+brain&tag=googcana-20&index=aps&hvadid=267704540073&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16485149707524145779&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000741&hvtargid=kwd-315407491679&ref=pd_sl_25d1pklljr_e

Edited July 7, 2018 by Sheilajeanne

[immiketoo]

That does sound like what happened.  Im all over that book!  Here I go!

[immiketoo]

So, I haven't even finished the first page of that book and it talks specifically about transfer of knowledge and how best to go about it.  Teaching directly.  This is why I teach, and I have found that in doing so, it makes me understand what I do more fully than if I just work.  Good suggestion!

[Sheilajeanne]

Don't forget the workbook exercises! This is one book where you absolutely HAVE to combine the head knowledge with the doing! 

[immiketoo]

I didn't see a separate workbook.   

[Sheilajeanne]

apparently there is one, but I would make my own. Just buy a sketch pad so you can practice what the book shows you.

[immiketoo]

Im still in the prologue, but its fascinating.  It explains a lot of why I am the way I am.  Can't wait to get to the drawing part!

[plinkercases]

I like the line attributed to Yogi Bara "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice...there is."

I absolutely agree that to continue learning something you think you know...teach it.

And as Jeff aptly pointed out there is knowledge plus practice which sometimes will never equal someone with talent/gift/intuition or inspiration. This is true in the arts as well as the sciences as I have witnessed (and perhaps on a few rare occasions experienced myself)  through my career in both. Before each take of a scene Jack Lemon used to say under his breath "Magic time." I have also witnessed engineers and architects and builders have magic time.

I also believe sometimes we are touched by God...even those who don't believe.

[Sheilajeanne]

Mike, here's the link to the workbook: https://www.amazon.ca/Drawing-Right-Side-Brain-Workbook/dp/1585429228/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1531026046&sr=8-2&keywords=draw+on+the+right+side+of+the+brain

And here's a quote from the blurb about the workbook, which is very appropriate for this thread!

Quote

Learning to draw is very much like mastering a sport or a musical instrument: once you understand the basic skills, you must practice, practice, practice. This brilliantly designed and practical workbook from a world-renowned art teacher offers the perfect opportunity to improve your skills and expand your repertoire.

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Sheilajeanne

[Basically Bob]

... an interesting discussion, for sure. 

Reflecting on my own leatherworking experience, I find it fascinating, how, when I first started to construct things, (following the projects in Valerie Michael’s book) I poked myself with the awl, frequently.  The most frustrating thing about that was not the “pain”, but rather that the project was often ruined from the blood that dripped on it.  

It didn’t take long to learn that as soon as I felt the “poke” to quickly get my finger away from the project.  

What I find fascinating, is that I eventually learned how not to poke myself with the awl. I have no idea when it happened, it just happened ... with experience.  Like learning to ride a bike, I suppose.  

I often use Stohlman’s case making books as a reference.  I know that if I follow his methods that my project will be functional and “technically correct”.  That being said, the professionalism of the finished project is determined by how well I have learned and applied a collection of basic skills, that improve with practice and experience, like cutting, stitching, skiving and edge finishing.

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Basically Bob

[NVLeatherWorx]

23 hours ago, immiketoo said:

While technology has advanced, I am not convinced that society has evolved.  In fact, one could argue we have devolved, and you'd only have to look at the writings of Plato, or Aristotle, Benjamin Franklin or any of the great minds throughout history to support your argument.  Most people now days have very specialized knowledge but lack experience.  For example, I know someone who has earned her doctorate, and calls herself a genius, but she can't figure out how to remove the monthly train pass from the plastic backing it came on.  Or whose sole conflict resolution skill is crying and slamming the door behind her.  Genius.

You nailed it my friend.  I have been explaining to new people that I have to train in a work environment that is mechanically demanding and I always make it very clear that even though we have seen evolution in the technology behind how we design and build things, we have lost the true knowledge and experience of how to think on our feet and work through the issues that arise while on the task at hand.  We have become technologically advanced but our ability to use our minds to achieve the great things that mankind has been able to do throughout history is no longer there. The best example of this can be found in the design and construction of the Great Pyramids; with all of our technology today we are unable to replicate the process or results to even think about trying to build that same structure.  Experience is probably the best determining factor in one's successes but knowledge, when truly understood and applied, gives you the direction you need to go to gain that experience.

[immiketoo]

4 hours ago, NVLeatherWorx said:

You nailed it my friend.  I have been explaining to new people that I have to train in a work environment that is mechanically demanding and I always make it very clear that even though we have seen evolution in the technology behind how we design and build things, we have lost the true knowledge and experience of how to think on our feet and work through the issues that arise while on the task at hand.  We have become technologically advanced but our ability to use our minds to achieve the great things that mankind has been able to do throughout history is no longer there. The best example of this can be found in the design and construction of the Great Pyramids; with all of our technology today we are unable to replicate the process or results to even think about trying to build that same structure.  Experience is probably the best determining factor in one's successes but knowledge, when truly understood and applied, gives you the direction you need to go to gain that experience.

Its not just the pyramids.  The Acropolis in Athens, Greece has been knocked down in numerous battles and put back together, and its only in the last 30 years that they realized that no two pieces of the columns are identical.  More than that, each piece has exactly one place it fits, and they have no idea how it was done.  Also, the structure eliminates parallax in that it looks straight and square from any vantage point, while in actuality it is anything but.  There were great minds in humanity, and I fear there aren't any left alive, with the exception of a few hidden away from society.

[Riem]

Very interesting conversation indeed! As an ex-corporate trainer and instructional designer I've spent countless hours studying and observing what true competence is about and how it is constructed. Yes, you need knowledge (acquired through "studies" or distilled from experience) and you need experience (the much talked about 10,000 hours of immersive experience) but there are two additional factors that need to be in play: aptitude and inspiration.

Without aptitude - the inherent ability to manipulate the tools of the trade - you will not achieve true competence. Someone who has the proverbial ten thumbs can acquire the knowledge of hand stitching, but the skill of using an awl or threading a needle may be a bridge too far.

Similarly there has to be inspiration (which is frequently incorrectly labeled as either 'motivation' or as 'attitude'). The spark that kindles the fire. The spark arises either within or arrives from external sources. When it arrives it has to hit the tinder of knowledge, prior relevant experience and aptitude at just the right moment in the right conditions before it will lead to action.

Learning and acquisition of skill is a messy affair. It does not come in neat packages. It is stochastic and not always goal directed - we frequently 'file away' an experience and extract the learning from it months or even years later. If there was a simple, single way to learn, we'd stand the danger of becoming interchangeable units of labour who are required to execute without passion.

Interesting indeed... Enough from me tonight