Is a new leather sewing machine economically feasable or are sales to few in the leather business?

[RusticLeatherShop]

Hi,

How economically feasable would you say is to buy an leather sewing machine like an Juki TSC 441 or it's clones like the Cobra class 4/CB 4500?

I have heard stories from "just with 1 saddle repair you can pay off a leather sewing machine" to "it's more like a Hobby since Prices are to low for leather goods to justify an sewing machine".

In my case it's indeed more an Hobby since I make only one-to-one personal sales despite I am on etsy.com. I have seen here an constructioners harness (for hammer, nails, screwdrivers, etc) made in Mexico (Truper brand) seemingly real leather for about 6 US$. Well constructed, lots of rivets and sewn with about #69 thread. Clear is, for that Price I would never make the harness. I would rather have an Price of 49 US$.

Whats the real leather market about? Considered big retailers, Made in China and local leather shops as competition.

[battlemunky]

If you are looking to compete with "Made in China" type goods, you need bulk buys, automation, cheap labor, a political system that allows you to get away with all sorts of things. Here in America you can't compete with China, so most of us here don't and I can't speak for the rest of the markets. Many of us opt to go higher end and higher quality and try and support a niche. I don't know if too many local leather shops are competing with big retailers and Chinese made items, it is hard to price that low and make anything other than a heart attack and/or a broken life.

[RusticLeatherShop]

Thanks battlemunky,

I was just buying the CB4500 in expectation that the local market would appreciate durable and "higher end" products but I seem to be wrong. Niche market is here the way to go as well. But most certainly I would never be able to live from leather shop, nor do really well local small Family business leather Shops; [one is a church guy and does leather part time and the other shop around here does faux leather seat reapairs but mainly lives from cattle growing (which here is mainly free grasing so not much work implied but meat Prices are high)].

People here say directly they aint buying it for that Price since somewhere else they get it for 25% of the Price (mainly products made by latins who work often for a few Dollars per day and "obtain" their leather from illegal cattle slaughtering and other third Hand resale criminal activities, thus leather is somewhat free for them). Quality as well seems not to be important but Looks very much impresses the consumer.

Example: an full grain precut unfinished (no dye, no decoration) leather over here for a belt (legally bought leather) has the same Price as an finished belt. That Shows me there is something terrible wrong with the market.

An over here, the "animal protection" stuff didnt even arrive yet. Not to imagine if that s**t arrives here.

It's more like people dont appreciate nothing anymore and the leather business is more or less an "answer to an question nobody asked".

Edited August 20, 2018 by RusticLeatherShop

[chrisash]

Often its all about perceived values. is a Hermes wallet or b,five times the price Fred Bloggs can make and sell at. the answer is they are over a time and with great marketing' seen by the rich and famous as worth the money; and advertised on each piece to enable all friends to know what make they have brought

Is the skills of the leather worker at Hermes any better than say Nigel Armitage on this forum, its probably  a close  call but perceived the Hermes is better by some

So maybe you need to advertise your skills; and move your products up market, maybe not to the top end market but maybe the middle range where people have some money to spend on goods.Stamp your goods with your logo, attach a leaflet with your history and why they should buy from you and finaly pay attention to presentation like neat stitching, no scratches, consistent dye and so on

Regarding sewing machines, Hand stitching can be as good or better and many secondhand machines produce good work, everyone would like the top of the range items but often only need the basic version. Totally hand made can be a major selling point

Edited August 20, 2018 by chrisash

[Matt S]

Let's take belts as an example, since you mentioned belts. Your local conditions will vary but I think the principle applies.

I can buy a belt in a shop for as little as £1. It will be made in China, made of plastic, and with a pot-metal buckle. It won't look great and won't last a month. "But it's only £1! You can't expect it to last!" they say. "Just buy another one when it falls apart." Most shop-boughten belts are in the £15-40 range depending on the brand stamped on them. All are the same (lack of) quality -- two layers of very thin leather glued over a core of foam and if you're lucky stitched all the way round. They last a bit longer than the £1 belts, but not 20x-40x longer.

I make belts primarily from Italian bridle leather. 1-1/2 wide, edges rounded, burnished, end pointed, holes punched, turnback skived and a solid brass buckle rivetted on. Nothing clever. I can't buy the buckles for £1, let alone the leather, my labour, overheads... I sell them for about £35 each, a little more if I saddle stitch instead of rivetting. People love them because (to quote a lot of customers) "you just can't find these in the shops any more". They know it's going to last for years. I'm not going to a belt to every person who walks past. I get some negative comments on prices. But to the right people it's worth the £.

As other have said -- and this applies to all manufacturing -- you can't compete with the likes of China on price. But price is not everything you can compete on some other aspects -- quality, customer service, design, custom/bespoke work...

I voted "yes". I have several sewing machines that have already paid themselves off. I find it interesting that people call sewing machines "expensive" when it's a time-saver. If you're in business, time is money -- literally, that's called wages. Try sewing a 60" dog lead by hand, then by machine, and tell me which is cheaper! (Or tell your customer the price...)

[kgg]

Without a machine the time it would take to make an article will be greatly increased (time is money) and the cost of the equipment probably shouldn't be costed over one or several jobs but of 20 plus years of jobs. The equipment cost then becomes extremely low. Buy new or good used once, Cry Once. No one is ever going to beat the prices of articles from Mexico, China or India based on price, it needs to be done on producing superior longer lasting quality, and custom work that people can use, abuse and appreciate for years not days.

With China even if the material cost of an article was the same, wages are really, really low and a lot of the machines are made there probably at a tenth of what the same or similar machine cost in North America.

I voted "Yes".

[RusticLeatherShop]

Some interesting ideas you guys said.

Over here in Southamerica, wages are somewhat similar to chinese wages as far as I know (Minimum wage is about 360$ to 390$ depending on the Exchange rate, at the Moment it is 375 US$).

The products they offer here last Long but then for example belt buckles are allways chromed metal so it starts to rust after a while but they are Hand decorated. Sometimes 2 pieces of leather are sewn together for a belt with #138 thread at most; but mostly they take only a thick (no split leather) leather, form it (no sewing), Punch holes, make decoration and rivet the buckle on (about 20$ belts have here bronce buckles as it seems). We are talking here about latin american small shop which is the competition here. These belts will last you most of the time about 5 or more years (so they are not neccesary cheaply made but have really low Prices).

I was betting as well on this: "you just can't find these in the shops any more"; but that has not come true over here yet as because of that people would order items. How much that might be true that one can not find anymore that easy Quality products in retail stores, people want it still for cheap.

[DrmCa]

The playing field between North America and 3d world is not level. I was involved with metal plating/galvanizing. It's a dying business in NA right now, as there are enormous fines imposed if gubmint finds traces of high oxidation states of chromium in wastewater, even if those came from a hobbyist flushing his kit down the toilet on the same drainage pipe as a 100% compliant business. In the 3d world no one looks your way even if a factory is dumping untreated waste. This impacts all businesses across the board in NA. Last I heard, the largest and only lead smelter in the US closed down its doors due to red tape and hostile regulations. What's the acronym for this - NIMBY mentality? Don't even get me started about insurance premiums! We are safe operators here, with policies and procedures in place, training, highest levels of compliance, yet we have to pay through the nose, while in the 3d world it costs next to nothing to insure the same activity.

On top of that leatherworkers in general make almost the lowest wages of all industries. You have to find a niche. Having said that, it is used machines only for me, new ones would never be economical. And then I take time, shop around and wait for good deals for months, sometimes years.

[chrisash]

Rusticleathershop

Having traveled the world and especially West Africa , I think i can understand what your stating about the customers, if you cannot see a way out then maybe repair could be a area you could investigate be it Chrome leather garments of Veg tan  boots and shoes. Many vehicles need leather repairs including seats, gear change floor covers and gear stick ends. What i am suggesting is look for other markets where you use your skills instead of just producing something  that only brings in small change and maybe make small leather belt pouches in any spare time using wet leather molding, people always want small bags/ purses

[RusticLeatherShop]

Yes it is true for here (Southamerica) that waste water and such is not controlled that much. Nobody really cares here About Environment issues.

On the other Hand, one local "leather shop" does all it does is repair works. 

I sell here some items on a one-to-one Basis for About 17 to 35 USD (like Holsters I offer on Etsy.com as well under RusticLeatherShop). But economically the machine will never pay itself off. On the other Hand for sure I make for me all items myself which truly "you just can't find these in the shops any more" (at all) and there are allways people who ask for an bespoke item (specially Holsters).

Speed of sewing is a true factor with a machine since I would never gotten into the leather craft if I had to handsew a Thing.

So even in the US leather Workers are poorly Paid? 

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

26 minutes ago, RusticLeatherShop said:

So even in the US leather Workers are poorly Paid? 

Among the poorest, and a lot of it is their own damn fault.  I know way too many leatherworkers who are constantly trying to undercut their competition.  All that does is prove to the buying public that a product CAN be made and sold for that low price.  I turn work away nearly every day.  Specific example today, a lady brought in a saddle with the front rigging worn through about half way across.  I gave her a quote and explained why it would be that much.  She asked why I couldn't just "put a strap across the worn part and nail it up there or something".  I explained why I wouldn't do that, not the least of which is I don't want my name associated with work like that.  She stated that my quoted price was more than the saddle was worth, and promised that she wouldn't tell anyone that I did the work.  No can do, I told her that I wouldn't sacrifice my standards for anyone, and agreed with her that the saddle wasn't worth the money it would cost me to fix it, but that doesn't mean that I can work for less money.  My groceries cost the same as everyone else's.  After all these years (27 in business) sometimes I still shake my head at the things people say and ask me to do.  So, even though I stuck to my policy on this job, somewhere, she will probably find someone to do what she wants, and that person is just reinforcing the customer's expectation to do shoddy work for low wages.  This isn't an easy business to be in;  you really have to love what you do, be tough, fair, honest and willing to turn work away that will lose you money, even if it means living poor because of it.  Today's example doesn't happen to me that often anymore.  I sure turn a lot of work away because I'm honest with my customers about cost vs value of the item, but because I have maintained high standards for nearly 3 decades, and have gotten better about saying "NO", most people around here know better than to come to me and want it cheap.  We owe it to ourselves to price our work at a level so that we can make a fair wage above our expenses. 

As far as a sewing machine paying for itself, it depends upon how deep into the trade you want to get.  My first sewing machine was not paid for by money made doing leatherwork.  There was no way for me to get enough done, quickly enough, to save enough cash to buy one.  My thoughts on buying machinery are more along the lines of "That machine will allow me to do more of such and such a job, faster, better, easier, which will allow me to get more done in a day."  Time is money, period.  If I was to evaluate every machine purchase by trying to decide if I would recoup the cost in dollars and cents in a given amount of time, I'd probably still be poking my stitching holes with a nail. I say, if you want a machine, and have the $$, go for it.  You are very limited when stitching by hand.  Best of luck to you!

[Joon1911]

So many different factors to answer this question.  Honestly most of my opinions are going to be irrelevant to your experience in South America.  That being said the basic mathematical equations still hold true.  

1. Who is your intended market and what is that particular market willing to pay for your product?  In the U.S. I’ve found there is a market willing to pay for a truly premium product that I can compare with another similar item that is priced say 50% less than mine and by comparing quality side by side, I can justify the additional expense to my customer.  If they don’t agree, they’re free to find the cost to benefit ratio they’re willing to pay for and I’m willing & able to decline their business if that equation doesn’t work for me.  This is the beauty of the free market economy.

2.  Find the machine that works for your budget.  There and thousands of Singers that are faithfully sewing heavy leather that can be had here in the US for 1/5th what you’d pay for a new CB4500 or Class IV.  I bought a Singer for less than $300 US, used it for several years until I could afford more machine.  The work that the Singer sewed paid for my new Class IV several years ago.   The work that my Class IV is sewing will eventually pay for a needle/awl machine like a Campbell-Randall or a Landis which is my dream machine.  

In reality I was able to sell my Singer for more than I paid for it because I was able to make it run more reliably that when I first bought it.  I doubt I’ll be able to sell my Class IV for more than I paid, but it’s been so reliable I may just keep it for strapwork & belts.  

[RusticLeatherShop]

Thanks Sioux and Joon,

I sencond all you said.

I bought a new CB4500 hoping the market would honour it but to no avail.

But yeah the expectations and posibilities the machine gives me is satisfaction enough. But just for economics sake, IMHO it's a downfall.

[DrmCa]

Colombia is a very strong competitor in leather business worldwide. They turn out amazing quality hides and stunning patterns and stitching. It is nearly impossible to compete with their quality and price. Italy makes goods just as good or better, but at a much higher price. Then there is Mexico, which is just plain outright cheap. India, Pakistan and then China do amazing work for cheap too. This is a very competitive market, while North America wears less and less leather garments and upholstery. Ecoleather (puke...) is replacing genuine leather everywhere, same as particle board replaced genuine wood in furniture. There are too many of us on this planet now, and goods have to be pumped out fast and cheap. Sad.

[chrisash]

Sorry disagree, there will always be a need for quality garments with a good history about them. you need to make a brand and explain it to your public. quality is a hard word to understand but many suggest its to the best you can make it, other may produce something people believe is better and it may or may not be true, but they are all perceived values and that is because they have established a brand and made it well known

Many what we used to call Blue collar workers would probably never buy a £50 leather belt, but the next higher group say middle management would never buy a £10 belt and so on

If you relate to cars, few people ever buy the basic model they all pay for the additional extra packs and have a small badge on the back to say L, or XL, or GT so people will pay extra for a bit of extra luxury 

China, Mexico, India etc all buy goods from Europe and the USA, we sell high value they sell low value

[RusticLeatherShop]

1 hour ago, DrmCa said:

Colombia is a very strong competitor in leather business worldwide. They turn out amazing quality hides and stunning patterns and stitching. It is nearly impossible to compete with their quality and price. Italy makes goods just as good or better, but at a much higher price. Then there is Mexico, which is just plain outright cheap. India, Pakistan and then China do amazing work for cheap too. This is a very competitive market, while North America wears less and less leather garments and upholstery. Ecoleather (puke...) is replacing genuine leather everywhere, same as particle board replaced genuine wood in furniture. There are too many of us on this planet now, and goods have to be pumped out fast and cheap. Sad.

I second that. Didnt know that Columbia (near my Location) does lots in leather works. Over here in this coutry, the very latin fellas are the biggest competition (I myself am of an German offspring and I am Canadian as well; so I am part of the White minority here) and so latins are even happy to live with 5 to 10 US$ per day (thats were Smartphone robberies come from over here since to shoot a Person for their used 100$ Samsung, over here the strongest brand, and sell it for 10$ is a viable income for many people as such as to rob 1 Smartphone per day gives them an reasonable living) while members of the White minority that will not even cover the costs of an CB4500 (I am sure I am the only Person in this Country who has this machine over here).

But then...

...I could never find the exact Holsters, Smartphone cases and pouches in reatail stores I was looking for.

Thats the reason I said "I am gonna do it myself from now on and not gonna waiting for Amazon or local retailers to have it".

Local Holsters and Smartphone cases made here are often riveted which scratches up your phone and precious weaponry once the Fleece/Cloth inside is gone (from weak thread or rubbed through due to use).

[Matt S]

29 minutes ago, chrisash said:

Sorry disagree, there will always be a need for quality garments with a good history about them. you need to make a brand and explain it to your public. quality is a hard word to understand but many suggest its to the best you can make it, other may produce something people believe is better and it may or may not be true, but they are all perceived values and that is because they have established a brand and made it well known

Many what we used to call Blue collar workers would probably never buy a £50 leather belt, but the next higher group say middle management would never buy a £10 belt and so on

If you relate to cars, few people ever buy the basic model they all pay for the additional extra packs and have a small badge on the back to say L, or XL, or GT so people will pay extra for a bit of extra luxury 

China, Mexico, India etc all buy goods from Europe and the USA, we sell high value they sell low value

I wholeheartedly agree with you Chris. People still commission guns from Holland & Holland for 5-figure sums, even though a £200 Baikal will hit birds just as hard. Why? Marketing. A London Best gun, fitted, stocked, engraved and regulated to perfection by a factory full of blokes who have spent decades learning their particular, micro-niche skill-set is a desirable and beautiful thing. There are plenty of small firms hand-making just as beautiful guns as H&H for less money, and lots of larger firms like Beretta and Browning making technically fine guns for even less money. The fact that each of these firms continues to turn a profit tells us that not everyone in the world is looking for the cheapest product they can find.

Who you promote your product to, and how, is the difficult problem -- the 1% that can afford a £100 belt? The 50% who won't pay more than £20? Or the 49% who have £40 spending money, can't find a decent belt in the shops, and understands the expense of buying cheap?

[LetterT]

22 hours ago, RusticLeatherShop said:

Some interesting ideas you guys said.

Over here in Southamerica, wages are somewhat similar to chinese wages as far as I know (Minimum wage is about 360$ to 390$ depending on the Exchange rate, at the Moment it is 375 US$).

It speaks volumes when minimal wage in my country is 230$, average around 400$ (most people never see that much).

Speaking of differences, I have a tannery in my own town from which I can not buy leather. The have been bought by Italians and everything they make now goes to Italy, to become "made in Italy" leather I guess.

End even in this economy I know of one guy who specialize in car upholstery. When someone brings in a BMW to completely re-cover the driver seat for sure he can charge a good price, BMW owner can afford it.

And I even know of two sisters who make ladies bags, often half leather half plastic leather (PU), in very small series to make them unique and they sell for around 50-60$. They have now expanded to employ 5 people.

None of them are millionaires but it shows that even in bad economies there are people finding something in leathercraft to make a decent living.

 

 

 

[chrisash]

That's understandable in low wage countries the people still need to buy goods from the world prices so far more expensive in real terms for things like machines and also local supplies of things like leather, finds the leather tannery selling outside the home country to get the best prices. Even in England there are now few tanneries seeminly as few are prepared to invest in dirty industries that take a year to make a product, so the remaining ones have moved up market

[RusticLeatherShop]

Over here tanneries are not the Problem since many small Family based businesses make the leather in an handcraft Fashion. They are never registred as it seems and Dump any toxics into the rivers as they please. Well in Southamerica bribery is common and a solution for many to stay in business.

Leather shortness I believe is here not the danger, but dangerously low leather goods Prices kill here people like me. Niche markets are the way to go but from that it's not possible to make a living. My employee is an latino and he is selling now his motorcycle just because his seat is gone (the rubberish faux leather), and in order not to fix it, he sells the motorcycle passing along to the buyer the seat Problem (in order to buy a brandnew motorcycle which comes along with a new seat. Basically he buys a new seat which comes attached with an new motorcycle. A new motorcycle is About 1400 US$ worth). To Shell out 50$ to fix the seat people are hesitating to do.

[DonInReno]

Sales has been and always will be like fishing - if big fish are thought of like big profit margins you can’t catch big fish in streams that only have small ones.  If big fish in your creek only bite a certain bait or lure it doesn’t matter how good YOUR bait is it isn’t going to change the fish’s preferences.  Fish are not evenly distributed in any lake or stream, and every body of water is slightly different - successful trophy fishermen look for pockets and in any industry there are pockets of money.  And just like fishing the best pockets of money require work and skills to tap into and not everyone is cut out for every niche - if it were easy everyone would be there.

[Lobo]

It is always interesting to learn from the experiences of people of other countries. I appreciate all those who have taken the time to add their comments to this post.

I have travelled much of western Europe, spent a little time in Australia, saw a lot of Vietnam (during the war), much of Mexico, Belize, Venezuela, Colombia, Peru, and a few other places. There are huge differences in the economies, governments, cultures, traditions, and every other aspect of life. I feel very fortunate to be a US citizen, and to have been successful enough to retire comfortably with few worries.

Unlike some forum members, leather work was never a hobby for me. As a young police officer with children to feed and bills to pay there were things I needed, so I learned to make them. Others I worked with noticed, and I started receiving requests to make holsters, belts, and accessories for others. Leather work remained only a small business sideline for years until my retirement. All that time I did everything by hand, including stitching. A relatively simple holster required most of an hour to lay out the stitching pattern, punch all the holes, and hand-stitch using harness needles.

When I entered the business full-time, using the Internet as a marketing tool, I quickly had to adapt to a much larger volume of orders. I tried a stitching machine, which was minimal at best and not capable of standing up to the demands I required. I studied and sought advice from others, then ordered a Cobra Class 4 (Leather Machine Company). Stitching chores that used to require 45 minutes to an hour started getting done in 5 or 6 minutes; I could complete 10 items in the time I used to spend on one, and that does not even take into account how much easier the work is on the hands and forearms!

I strongly recommend a power stitching machine for anyone planning to do production work in leather. The increase in production capacity makes it possible to earn far more in much less time, and the work becomes much less tedious or strenuous.

I also recommend investing in a machine that exceeds your expected needs. A machine that is minimally suitable will be constantly worked at its capacity, accelerating wear and tear, and causing more maintenance issues. A heavy duty professional machine will do the required tasks without stress or strain, and will usually outlive the owner.

Contacting Cobra Steve and Leather Machine Company could be one of the smartest things a leather craftsman ever does.

Best regards, from an old retired hide pounder!

Edited August 22, 2018 by Lobo

[Yetibelle]

I didn't read all the comments, since I'm tired and lazy (and honest), so forgive me is this was mentioned...

As startup cost go I think a leather craft business is very reasonable, the 441 clone while it appears expensive is a great investment.  It will last almost forever, unlike a most other modern day tools and equipment, and thus it will pay for itself very quickly.  The learning curve isn't that complicated; now I can make 2-3 items a day that use to take me 2-3 days to make 1 item.  The product design, marketing and order fulfillment, just like any other business, would be a struggle to master.