Is this stitching weakening the belt loop?

[GeneH]

I am making a run of the mill hatchet loop style carrier. Seems the punched slits for stitching will weaken the belt loop. The leather is 2 in wide, 8 oz, punches at 7 or 8 SPI.  Here’s 2 pictures. The strap is the vertical piece. Should I scrap it and just use Chicago screws?

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by GeneH

[Tugadude]

Yes, by definition any time you cut a hole in something it weakens it and possibly compromises the strength.  Think of it this way, when you get a paper check, the paper is typically perforated in a dashed fashion to make it easy to tear where you want it to.  Kind of what is going on here, right?

But an equally important question is how much is the strength reduced and is it enough to cause failure?  I think that will be problematic in the long run, especially if it is flexed repeatedly.  If it is just going to hang there, maybe it isn't a big deal but then I would ask, if it isn't there to reduce stress or keep the leather together do you need it anyway?  The fact that it is 8oz. leather helps some.  Maybe go down to 5 spi?

Just some thoughts.

[YinTx]

Plus the 4 chicago rivet/screws indicate that this has been designed to withstand a great deal of stress.  I'd forgo the weakening feature of added stitches, and just go with the rivets.  As long as they aren't "decorative" cap rivets, but solid or threaded rivets, they will be quite strong.

YinTx

[GeneH]

Yeah the intent was to hold the belt loop to the hatchet holder. I expect it to be flexed and after I punched the holes I realized that it makes a very good hinge that seems would weaken very quickly. An alternate method, not stitching, is what I'm thinking now. 

The Chicago screws are solid brass from the hardware store. Plenty strong themselves. The big advantage of the screws, (unless I glue also) is that the strap can be changed out for a different mode of carrying. 

The hatchet is only 1 1/4 lbs but you never know what kind of pulling or twisting stress will happen when out camping or tromping in the woods. 

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by GeneH

[Tugadude]

How about two vertical stitching lines spaced 1/2" apart just to keep the leather tight there?  This way the stress is going "against" the line of stitching.

[GeneH]

2 hours ago, Tugadude said:

How about two vertical stitching lines spaced 1/2" apart just to keep the leather tight there?  This way the stress is going "against" the line of stitching.

Looking at the sketch, can you describe where those 2 vertical lines would be? Down between the Chicago screws?

I tried stitching vertically with a curved needle on a test cylinder and that didn’t work out too well for me. Also tried a lock stitch and didn’t like the way it looked.

pretty sure this is what it feels like to paint oneself into a corner.

[Tugadude]

The stitching could stop at the screws.  No need to go past them as it would add little.  Or skip the stitching altogether and just move two of the screws higher.

[Rockoboy]

5 hours ago, GeneH said:

can you describe where those 2 vertical lines would be?

On your drawing, the stitch lines are horizontal. I am fairly sure what @Tugadude suggests, is having the stitch-lines running vertical along the edge of the vertical strap.

I would stitch 2(two) lines, each stitch-line outside of the Chicago screws.

[Tugadude]

28 minutes ago, Rockoboy said:

On your drawing, the stitch lines are horizontal. I am fairly sure what @Tugadude suggests, is having the stitch-lines running vertical along the edge of the vertical strap.

I would stitch 2(two) lines, each stitch-line outside of the Chicago screws.

That works

[GeneH]

UGH. Looks like I'm going to have to either shorten or bend a couple of needles. Will hitting the middle of the needle with a torch, and probably destroying any tempering the needles have, be a problem? Should I just dip after bending and hope they are not brittle for being too hard?

I read somewhere a long time ago that a U shaped stitch line was the strongest but that didn't seem to make sense with nylon webbing if we are not damaging the webbing. However with leather this makes total sense!

The ID of the hatchet loop is just under 2 inches so I'm really in a tight spot.

[Tugadude]

If I were you I would glue it and then install the Chicago screws and leave it be.  It will suffice.  Try it and you be the judge.

[GeneH]

41 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

If I were you I would glue it and then install the Chicago screws and leave it be.  It will suffice.  Try it and you be the judge.

Sounds good. It will look better than imperfect stitching. I might stitch the bottom. Later I can do some practice pieces when I find the right bent and curved needles. Struck out at a local Joann fabrics. 

I will post pictures in the critique area when done.

[Rockoboy]

I have some bent needles, but I am not sure if they are saddlers needles (as I would prefer for this job).

Alternatively, get some cheap needles and break them off around an inch long.  Cheap needles for snapping off like this, could be cheap embroidery or sharp point needles. I have some broken needles for this exact job.

[jimi]

I personally do not see the stitching being a problem? I don´t think you even need the rivets if you are stitching this by hand top and bottom? you did say it was for an axe?? If it was for bungee jumping then maybe better with the rivets as well 

[bermudahwin]

You could try this if you are concerned about perforations, I don't think they're an issue, but if you do this would alleviate the 'weak' area. This is the way harness used to be stitched in the UK.

Harry

 

[GeneH]

This is for carrying a 1- 1/4 lb  hatchet.  I would have liked to go with only stitching just to say that I can, and even though I won't be using it for bungee jumping, I do what very solid, non-floppy, construction. A knotted paracord or brass ring would have sufficed, but that's so .... pedestrian.  :-) 

I cut the the strap off at the perforations last night and have test fit the chicago screws, leaving room for the vertical stitches that you have marked clearly on the diagram (thank you for that effort)

Rockoboy thanks for validating using shortened needles. I didn't know if I was going sideways or not.

I'm surprised how firm this leather is at this thickness, I bet the belt loop never loosens up using just screws, even without glue. However ... I'll glue this one and might even use it to practice the vertical stitching before I go on to the next.

 

Pictures in a couple days....

Edited February 15, 2019 by GeneH

[bermudahwin]

4 minutes ago, GeneH said:

I cut the the strap off at the perforations last night and have test fit the chicago screws, leaving room for the vertical stitches that you have marked clearly on the diagram (thank you for that effort)

Personally I would lose the screws for a small hatchet, but, again this is just my view. The screws will give it a rustic feel, and will add strength.

H

[GeneH]

Agreed on both points H. Screws or no screws is an aesthetic  roll of the dice for me. I left them off the hatchet mask for just that reason. 

 

[RockyAussie]

I think you quite rightly feel a reservation in the design construction. An axe falling from a failed construction could be at the cost of a toe or worse. Sometimes when you get a construction idea in your head it is difficult to think on ways that are necessary to make it work and still be economically affordable to manufacture. In my opinion stress points are the areas to be concentrated on and I would think about a complete change of design. For instance an upside down T shape cut with a single line external stitch down the front and the other piece folding back over the belt and down to the bottom edge with 2 rivets attaching at the bottom could be worth looking at. For cutting purposes it should be able to interlock each piece and save waste. The stress on the rivets at the back is reduced by the main pressure being supported by the belt firstly. The stitch at the front has little pressure as the forces are on the side and more to the back. Any stitching except at the front join would be only decorative. Hope that makes some sense.

[chrisash]

There are odd occasions where in a emergency it is better the joint fails, for instance imagine falling /sliding down a steep bank, the axe may do more damage to you attached than breaking free, just something to consider depending on your own circumstances 

Edited February 16, 2019 by chrisash

[GeneH]

Chrisash: That's a really good point: break-away safety. I thought about covering the blade only.  I've slipped on a wet leafy steep slope more than once. 

I may have gotten lucky using this style hanger. Hopefully on the initial slide the handle catches and the hatchet slides  right out without smacking any ribs on the way. I tried to make the accompanying mask stout enough, though the snaps holding it might come loose in a fall and expose the edge. I'll give this more thought as I go forward.

The one safety issue I am concerned about is my own inattention and putting the hatchet w/o the mask, "just for a moment," in the hanger and slicing my arm the next moment. Inherent design weakness.

[GeneH]

8 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

...In my opinion stress points are the areas to be concentrated on and I would think about a complete change of design. For instance an upside down T shape cut with a single line external stitch down the front and the other piece folding back over the belt and down to the bottom edge with 2 rivets attaching at the bottom could be worth looking at...

Yep, that's a better idea. Cleaner design, I don't need rivets, and I bet I saves 2/3 of the cutting/fitting/assembly time. I pretty much finished the original one last night (pictures forthcoming later this weekend) and getting that strap bolted to the hatchet loops was a battle of wills. Inanimate cowhide almost won. That first build has too many compromises (IMO) the way the strap is secured.

This, as you suggested will be my next one. I wasn't going to even try another like I did. This one has "U" shaped stitching on the strap which I think might be the strongest, though probably not necessary. No vertical stitching on the wraps because that's outside my temperament level and again not needed for a hatchet.

 

[GeneH]

As of last night I had decided to not make another one. Now I can't wait to get started on the next. 

[RockyAussie]

14 hours ago, GeneH said:

As of last night I had decided to not make another one. Now I can't wait to get started on the next. 

That looks good to go and I am happy to hear your keen to get started again. Keep in mind to check the length of the belt loop section. If it can shorten some it could make the interlocking cutting reduce the waste to near nix. Do you have a clicker press or a method for using cutting dies? That knife shape here in the 19mm ht 3/4" would cost about $70.00au I think and about $20.00 for the other. A clicker press would enable the cut at around 30 secs per if that helps.

[bermudahwin]

16 hours ago, GeneH said:

As of last night I had decided to not make another one. Now I can't wait to get started on the next. 

Good on you, Gene

Harry