RockyAussie Report post Posted May 6, 2019 11 hours ago, mikesc said: Out of curiosity, i just ran a site search with Google of facebook for the term leather.. If you copy and paste into the Google search box this search string on the line below. site:facebook.com leather You get nearly 59 million results..Every one of the 1st page of results has the word "leather" in the descriptive text that is on their facebook page.. RockyAussie, you must have really got someone at facebook who got out of bed on the wrong side..!! The place is choka with people and companies selling leather, leather goods, and mentioning "leather" on their pages there..with pictures too!! If what you were told is "policy" there..they are applying it very very selectively.. From what I can understand this position on this policy is very recent and I have found a huge amount of posts bringing this issue up now. Our website is done with Shopify and they informed us that it was possible to now use facebook/instagram to market sell our products in a connected way via hitting the shop icon to the left in facebook. Although we have tried several times we continue to get rejected product notices from Facebook as shown in my posting above as do many others now. Personally I don't use facebook and don't much care one way or the other whether we get to use the platform or not. WHAT I AM CONCERNED ABOUT IS THE NUMBER OF BUSINESSES NOW THAT DISGUISE THEIR WORDING TO GET PAST THE FACEBOOK ROBOTS AND STAFF. I SEE THAT THE EXTREMIST GROUPS WILL BE ABLE ABLE TO USE EVERY FORM OF MEDIA TO SLANDER THESE BUSINESS AND GET EVEN MORE MEDIA TRACTION TO APPLY EVEN MORE PRESSURE. As I said facebook marketing if it is not there to me is no big deal but I DO love animals a lot. I don't see how what the Vegans and some animal rights groups are proposing is not far more cruel. I have gone through their web pages for days and can find NO answer to what will happen to all of these animals. Particularly farmed animals. I would easily agree that many farming practices could be improved for the animals and that they should be focused on. To desex them gives no right to their offspring to have any life at all and for them to be mothers. Sheep and many farm animals have little to no defence from preditators so letting them loose would be vastly more cruel a death than is practised in real life at present. If they were to be somehow kept safely as they are at present and there is no economic reason to keep them, who pays and how can they be kept? Then perhaps and most likely huge numbers will have to be slaughtered. Are the proponents willing to do it or hide away and just pay for it? That may be possible because a common theme on all of their websites is DONATE DONATE DONATE. They also promote that pets should not be allowed to be kept . A trip to Bali where something similar to this type of thinking would show how cruel it is. The dogs are mostly not owned and they are thin and bony and starving and full of mange. I have cows and dogs and trust me the love goes both ways and THEY DO NOT AS THEY SUGGEST and to quote just one- " The life of the average farmed animal is filled with pain, suffering, loss, sickness, crowding, surgical mutilations without pain relief, filth, lameness, loneliness and premature death". The average statements shows me that most of these people have NEVER had any thing to do with raising animals. Because I love animals I would ask if it is possible that the forum here would consider perhaps as one of the largest group of leather workers in the world that FACEBOOK would make their position clearer as to whether leather products are acceptable or not on their platform??? I do not want any extremist groups able to get further traction that is possible at the moment. If they are in or out is all we need to have clarity on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted May 6, 2019 I agree with you absolutely re animals.. I grew up on a small farm ( when in Ireland ) and have always had animals around.PETA and many others , whilst starting out "well meaning" do not think things through at all.There was ( a few years ago ) a verified story which "leaked" from within PETA, which documented how many healthy animals that they had "rescued" were then killed by their vets, "to save them suffering". Curious, I'm wondering if the problem you ( and others ) are having with facebook might be down to the use of shoppify ? Could it be that facebook are trying to push their own system , if they have one ? Or if they are working on a system of "facebook shops" ? If it is "bots" responsible at facebook, I'm amazed that they have not picked up all the pages that have leather in their title, some members here have facebook pages, Instagram pages etc, instead of ( or in addition to ) websites, with the word "leather" extremely prominent ( and images of their leather products ) multiple times, on those pages.A "bot" system running a ( simplified description to demonstrate ) "if word leather is found suspend page issue notice , or flag for human review" ) would get all instances in under 24 hours.. Whereas if it is only "3rd party" shopping systems with "hooks" into facebook , that are being searched for in the "bot "algo" parameters"..it would explain why you and others are being told "no" when many tens of millions of pages are untouched and up with no problems ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robs456 Report post Posted May 6, 2019 5 hours ago, mikesc said: .it would explain why you and others are being told "no" when many tens of millions of pages are untouched and up with no problems ? Nah, I'm just starting a Shopify store connected to FB markets and run ads via FB too and I have no problems. I would guess it's someone in the local FB office that is a militant vegan or it's 'cos of 'exotics' mentioned or something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted May 6, 2019 (edited) Yep.. that was one of my thoughts in a previous post.. "someone got out of bed on the wrong side".. But, given the way "reach" at facebook is "pay more" ( buy ads ) to reach "fewer and fewer", it won't be long before they do a "google" and integrate vertically like G do with things like amp..I can see facebook eventually offering a, "host your shop on facebook" for X per month, and for Y ( ad spend ) you get to be in W ( number of people's feeds) and we facebook ( with the integrated shopping cart ) will only take Z percentage of your sales. Sort of Etsy on steroids. In order to keep Wall st happy with ever increasing quarterly figures, the big dogs of the web are all looking to squeeze the last cent out of anyone..and to track everyone to sell the "ultra targeted ads " myth to advertisers..Yes they can target very precisely, but that involves breaking some laws, for the moment they are finding that even fines in the billions are worth the cost of doing business, but that may well change. PETA ( and similar "single issue groups" of all types, not just the leather is bad ones ) have large ad budgets, and very vocal celebrity endorsers in many cases. "Squeaky wheels"..will get the "oil / influence / policies"..especially if they can also get donations from the "hard of thinking" ( which never forget, is at least 50% of the population everywhere, the movie Idiocracy is fast looking like a prescient documentary coming true around us ) to pay for their "oil / influence / policies".. Edited May 6, 2019 by mikesc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robs456 Report post Posted May 6, 2019 7 minutes ago, mikesc said: Squeaky wheels..especially if they can also get donations from the "hard of thinking" to pay for oil.. At least only humans have to die for oil...and dinosaurs... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smartee Report post Posted May 6, 2019 I haven't read everything here but wanted to interject that it's not just the leather community. As a horse and other animal person - it is happening to all of the animal sites, farming sites, etc. One must be very particular as to wording on FB anymore. I feed my dogs raw and our buying group has even seen issues. I'm sorry - my dogs weren't born to be vegan nor was my cat or myself! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted May 6, 2019 5 hours ago, Smartee said: I feed my dogs raw Good for you Smartee we have been doing Raw for the last 30 years with our dogs. When my wife and I got our first pure bred we followed our vets recommendation as far as food went, spared no expense he had to have the best the vet could supply and ignored what our parents / grandparents had done. We lived in a place that kibble didn't appear on the scene until the 1970's. What a mistake for the dog and I swear I put that vets kid through college. Finally with the dog at deaths door we said enough is enough and went back to the old ways of feeding. Have never looked back since. How do people think we fed our dogs before kibble? kgg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halitech Report post Posted May 7, 2019 What really gets to me is how crackbook can be so hypocritical. Okay, you don't want animal pelts/skins sold to prevent the poachers from being able to sell there but they are completely fine with hosting cock fighting (209k results) and dog fighting (2.3M results). Now hard to say what percentage is pro/against dog fighting, google doesn't say but the cock fighting, are 95% for and have lots of graphic photos to look at. Maybe we need to direct PETA to go after the dog and cock fighting groups. Would still like to give most of them a tap between the eyes with a 2x4. And as has been pointed out, in the majority of cases, we are using the hides after the animals were killed for food. Of course there are probably some, like snake skins, that are killed simply for their skins because the meat has no value or use. And most leather will decompose within 50-75 years compared to centuries for the pleather that they would rather we use. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Handstitched Report post Posted May 7, 2019 G'Day, this thread certainly has turned into a hot topic. @Big Sioux Saddlery God bless you, I love my bacon & eggs too You're right. I just don't like the hypocrisy of these so called ' vegan activists' that we have here in Oz . They say they'e trying to 'save the animals', but what they don't realise is that they break every bio security rule in the book when trespassing farms etc. potentially putting the very animals they're trying to save, at risk. HS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robs456 Report post Posted May 7, 2019 3 hours ago, Handstitched said: potentially putting the very animals they're trying to save, at risk. Haha, reminds me of one of my favorite stories ever. A Swedish militant animal rights group once raided a mink farm somewhere in Sweden and released around 100 minks. Because it's wrong to kill etc etc. Well, most died within a couple of days as they could not get food or knew how to live in the woods... ....ummm wait it's terrible, shouldn't laugh.....but WTH... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tugadude Report post Posted May 7, 2019 21 hours ago, robs456 said: At least only humans have to die for oil...and dinosaurs... Just another myth foisted upon an unsuspecting crowd... https://www.thoughtco.com/oil-comes-from-dinosaurs-fact-or-fiction-3980636 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robs456 Report post Posted May 7, 2019 10 minutes ago, Tugadude said: Just another myth foisted upon an unsuspecting crowd... https://www.thoughtco.com/oil-comes-from-dinosaurs-fact-or-fiction-3980636 Going OT, but of course! The way I've always figured it is that we drill kilometers down for oil but find fossils basically just laying around in the deserts. They can't really be related... But like you say, the myth is popular and the crowd knows little. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tugadude Report post Posted May 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, robs456 said: Going OT, but of course! The way I've always figured it is that we drill kilometers down for oil but find fossils basically just laying around in the deserts. They can't really be related... But like you say, the myth is popular and the crowd knows little. yep! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robs456 Report post Posted May 7, 2019 (edited) Going on topic again. I was in a store that sold belts that were clearly plastic and with a quality not warranting the hefty price tag. When I cautiously offered a steady supply of high quality leather belts I got the reply that all their products are vegan. "Mine too!" I replied, "with the exception for the odd fly or worm I guess, but those are most certainly accidental only!" The lady went blank and whimpered a "No...." Edited May 7, 2019 by robs456 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted May 7, 2019 (edited) Dinosaurs and oil are from different periods in time..Hence they are not at the same positions in the strata..There is also erosion , and geological upheavals to be taken into account, most oilfields drill were drilled less than a kilometre down.. Edited to add ..apparently the average is now a little less than 2km down..But the different geological time periods and strata is the reason that they are not at the same levels as dinosaurs still holds..Some areas that nowadays have no, or very little oil, once had huge amounts, relatively near the surface, even by today's standards of "oil fields", but it was not geologically trapped..Complex subject.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_column Back to the original one re "leather goods bad".. Natalie Portman advertises at the moment for Chanel..( she is "their girl" this year, and was last year ) who make luxury goods including Leather sacs and bags, and watch straps..they even have a perfume called "cuir" ( leather ) .. https://www.chanel.com/us/fashion/small-leather-goods/c/1x1x2/ Also a very extensive line of vintage leather wear including coats and jackets.. Hypocritical much eh ?.. The lady looks great, but is definitely either "hard of thinking", or doesn't really care as much as she would have some believe, as long as the check from Chanel clears.. Edited May 7, 2019 by mikesc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tugadude Report post Posted May 8, 2019 On 5/5/2019 at 6:47 PM, noobleather said: The future worries me, the internet has gotten better and worse since it first started. What's happens when Google goes to war with Facebook? If you want to lose your faith in humanity, just read comments below an article, social media post or youtube video. Personally, I have little faith in humanity and lots of faith in God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted May 8, 2019 (edited) If you want to lose your faith in humanity, just read comments below an article, social media post or youtube video. Personally, I have little faith in humanity and lots of faith in God. The only hope for humanity, is to forget "god(s)" and "faith(s)" and go with logic , reasoning , and science.. Edited May 8, 2019 by mikesc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tugadude Report post Posted May 8, 2019 Don't need to derail the thread so I'll simply say we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Constabulary Report post Posted May 8, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, mikesc said: and go with logic , reasoning , and science.. And firepower... and German beer.... and Italian pasta... and Singer sewing machines Edited May 8, 2019 by Constabulary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockyAussie Report post Posted May 8, 2019 10 hours ago, Tugadude said: If you want to lose your faith in humanity, just read comments below an article, social media post or youtube video. Personally, I have little faith in humanity and lots of faith in God. That is a good point. Where there is an opening to express opposing ideas it all to often exposes the worst extremes of humanity. In my search trying to see any answers from a vegans perspective I did find it interesting that a lot of the comments below this post from Ethical Vegan confirmed a lot of my thinking on the matter. I must add that at least they have been ethical enough to allow the comments to be seen and for that at least they should be commended. http://ethicalvegan.net/read/will-animals-go-extinct-if-the-world-becomes-vegan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted May 8, 2019 (edited) Unfortunately their comments system is powered by disqus, and to even get to to the point where you can allow the disqus scripts to work ( and for disqus to track you all over the internet ) and to be able to read the comments at all .. you have to have already allowed a whole pile of other scripts, ( 10 in the first stage, none of which are owned by that site, no idea how many in later stages ) , from other tracking companies to be loaded , and to track you all over the web, drop cookies ( some of which are "ever cookies" which do not get destroyed without a lot of work* to stop them re-spawning ) ..so..I'll take your word for it.. Lazy webmasters ( like 99.9999% of webmasters ) using script systems, analytic systems, and comments systems from companies who track you..illegally ..GDPR applies to those sites the moment an EU visitor hits them..instead of using comments systems that don't do any of that ..or "opt you in" or do not allow "disagree"..but only propose "learn more" or I agree", or "by using this site you agree"..all of which are illegal..and make them liable to huge fines and penalties.. btw..Chanel did their first "show" in Paris this week since Karl died..many leather items in the new collection, bags, sacs, jackets ,trousers, and even ( combinations ) jumpsuits..and some leather gourds and other leather accessories. One of the Chanel perfume ads ran on TV earlier here this evening, the one in which Ms Portman wears a Chanel leather jacket whilst advertising their Chanel n°5 perfume. *I could go through and clear the stuff out afterwards..but I've better things to do with the 10 minutes or so it would take of my time..and would have to relaunch this browser..or use another browser on another machine and then clean it..all because of lazy, immoral, or incompetent webmasters. That is a good point. Where there is an opening to express opposing ideas it all to often exposes the worst extremes of humanity. Most if not all of those kinds of "comments" on so called "social media" such as facebook , twitter, and to a huge extent Youtube, are not "opposing" anything, they are just the illiterati typing ( with horrific grammatical or spelling errors all through each phrase and sometimes each word ) their jealousy, hatred and bile , because they can, because they are anonymous, and they know that ( except in very very rare cases ) there will be no consequences to them ..The internet gave the worst parts of humanity a voice, they shout in everyone's faces now all over it..it is like the graffiti that you see which has nothing artistic about, only a bad attempt at a logo for their ego..shouting their name in paint, or commenting by saying something vile, to give them a sense of existing. Hah..my "speelchucker" "flags" ( red underlines ) "illiterati" and "Chanel" as "incorrect".. Edited May 8, 2019 by mikesc Fighting my "speelchucker".. and typos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Matt S Report post Posted May 9, 2019 This isn't just a Facebook thing. Look at the ongoing Youtube monetisation/content debacle, the looming UK national porn filter, and the EU's Article 13. Blunt rules, crudely forged by ignoramuses that are applied inconsistently by uncaring bots and third-world clickfarms. These are killing or will kill the internet. Rules intended to do good (improve ad revenue, avoid tabloid headlines, protect copyright trolls holders or children from shock horror seeing naked people "accidentally"). In the OP's case I suspect that Facebook doesn't/didn't intend to ban leather -- it's just a poorly worded rule that picked up on your use of croc. Human review was probably done by some underpaid worker in a third world cubicle farm where the personal consequences of an over-harsh decision are zero and the consequences of an overly generous decision are severe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) In the OP's case I suspect that Facebook doesn't/didn't intend to ban leather -- it's just a poorly worded rule that picked up on your use of croc. Human review was probably done by some underpaid worker in a third world cubicle farm where the personal consequences of an over-harsh decision are zero and the consequences of an overly generous decision are severe. The refusal would probably stand if "drop bears" was substituted for "croc".. However, if that "substitution" was made, any subsequent public challenge (such as contacting the press or TV , or other media ) to such a refusal to " prohibited content" would make facebook look very very foolish. :) "Won't someone think of the drop bears" Being held to public ridicule often has more effect on "the powerful" , than other avenues. Edited May 9, 2019 by mikesc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dikman Report post Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) I like that. Drop bear leather. There could be a marketing opportunity there, Brian. Along those lines the NSW government and police recently created legislation that banned "Zombie knives"! I kid you not, it is written that it is illegal to own knives that are advertised as being intended to kill zombies. Stupidity knows no bounds...... Edited May 9, 2019 by dikman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockyAussie Report post Posted May 9, 2019 1 minute ago, dikman said: I like that. Drop bear leather. There could be a marketing opportunity there, Brian. Along those lines the NSW government and police recently created legislation that banned "Zombie knives"! I kid you not, it is written that it is illegal to own knives that are advertised as being intended to kill zombies. Does that specifically include pollies??? Eggs seem to be coming under the firing line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
