Overwhelmed by leather Sewing machines

[Starwind0]

On 6/30/2019 at 10:23 PM, kgg said:

What is the mark that you have decided on? From that point I am sure someone can point you in the right direction and suggest the best machine option. Another option that hasn't been suggested and may suit your needs for straps, wallets and bags depending on the thickness of the material maybe a portable walking foot machine.

I would recommend you check out the Reliable Barracuda which are available at Home Depot for about $500 with 3 yr warranty (https://reliablecorporation.ca/products/barracuda-200zw-portable-walking-foot-zig-zag-sewing-machine), Sailrite LSZ for about $900, Techsew 611 for about $500. Place any of them in a table, add a servo motor and you would have a similar and I think a better a better machine then the Tandy pro stitch costing about $1500. Even though these are not true industrial sewing machines it maybe an option to get your feet wet so to speak.

 

kgg

Honestly this one calls to me most, though I don't want all those bells and whistles
http://www.techsew.com/machinery/industrial-sewing-machines/heavy-duty/techsew-5100-se-heavy-leather-stitcher-special-edition.html
I do need the table. The cylendar arm with a table attachment, and a wide work area is appealing, but without the beast of a machine that comes at 3.5k... more like the 2.2k version, that has a table and is a cylinder.

You could convince me to get 
http://www.solar-leather.com/cowboy-cb4500-special-edition
because it would be art in the apartment...  but I am sure that is not the machine I want for doing small stuff. I will never make a saddle. Or sew 4 pieces. 

The Solar guy recommended one like this.
http://www.solar-leather.com/cowboy-cb341
But it just looks cramped and has no table. Doesn't really feel like it beats something like this http://www.techsew.com/machinery/industrial-sewing-machines/cylinder-machines/techsew-2600-narrow-cylinder-leather-industrial-sewing-machine.html

Course I am not confident is techsew because I see just the one youtuber, while everyone else talks about Juki consew and cowboy. I thought they were a clone brand. 

I think if I saw it in person it would help me judge how big these machines really are. A screen is not great. Though Solar isn't open weekends, so even if I spent a weekend (that I very much don't have) I couldn't go up. Aye waiting for a local one might be the answer, even though I have been at it a month now. 

[RockyAussie]

On 6/27/2019 at 1:26 PM, Starwind0 said:

So I want my first leather sewing machine. I do leather working for fun. a ton of double sided straps and belts, wallets, and I want to make a few personal bags.

That does not give enough information for me to say which is best. I would like to see some pictures of the type of products you envisage making. I make all of these products but what machine I use to stitch a wallet that I make and what someone else here uses to make the wallet they make could best be done with different machines. I would totally rule out the large long needle machines and consider these 2 mostly as long as you are OK with 138 thick thread as the thickest.

4 hours ago, Starwind0 said:

The Solar guy recommended one like this.
http://www.solar-leather.com/cowboy-cb341
But it just looks cramped and has no table. Doesn't really feel like it beats something like this http://www.techsew.com/machinery/industrial-sewing-machines/cylinder-machines/techsew-2600-narrow-cylinder-leather-industrial-sewing-machine.html

The main thing from there is to consider whether the smaller 1.7/8" diameter cylinder of the Techsew 2600 is better have than the extra 1/8" thickness of material the CB-341 Cowboy can sew through. The cramped table can be altered and should not be considered a problem. The type of wallets you can see on my website I prefer to use the smaller cylinder but I would often like to have the extra lift as well. If you think you would be doing thicker products than me I would go for the CB-341

[Northmount]

And, you don't need a heavy harness stitcher to make wallets with.  I use a Techsew 2700 and it does most everything I need for purses, folders, wallets, belts, saddle bags, etc.  Other brands have the same size machine.  Such as the Cowboy 227R, basically the same machine. 

I use a smaller machine for assembling wallet interiors - a Singer 20U industrial that came out of a curtain shop.  No walking foot, just drop feed.

Tom

[Starwind0]

On 6/27/2019 at 6:10 AM, kgg said:

Quote

Take a trip to your local brick /mortar dealer with samples of your stuff and see what fits your needs / budget

I actually did but they had 0 leather leather h

Well still looking. I've been watching craiglist and facebook market but so few come up for sale, and most are charging 1k+ for used machines. a Consew 206 RB-5 is the first industrial to appear in weeks. Though research shows its not really a leather machine, and they want a full grand. 

Dallas shops are closed on the weekends so, I can't drive up there, without taking time off work. Shipping -- everyone wants hundreds. Which is reasonable, but adds to a stretched budged. 

 

That Techsew 2700 would be nice, but that would be way over 2k by the time I paid tax and shipping... I'm just looking to do this for a hobby.. Hell the thing could be manually powered, so long as it did the job well enough.... .

[Wizcrafts]

9 hours ago, Starwind0 said:

a Consew 206 RB-5 is the first industrial to appear in weeks. Though research shows its not really a leather machine, and they want a full grand. 

The Consew 206RB-5 is a leather sewing machine for thicknesses not exceeding 3/8 inch and thread sizes not exceeding #138. It is fine up to those limits.

Personally, having sewn many double leather belts and more holsters than you can shake a stick at, I use a Cowboy CB4500 for that kind of work. It uses thread sizes 138 and UP, with thicknesses up to 7/8 inch. I have a several medium duty walking foot machines for lighter, thinner work and thinner thread.

In case you are wondering about how thin you can sew on a CB4500, or its little brother the CB3200, I have hemmed jeans and chaps on mine. There is a trick to it though. You remove the throat plate and feed dog and install the flat slotted plate instead (to prevent the cloth and soft leather from getting pushed into the feed dog hole and its rectangular slot). Then fit a #20 needle, thread it with #92 bonded, or #105 polycore jeans thread and stitch away.

[Starwind0]

People are asking for more detail on what I want to make with it. I currently have 3 different belt projects I'm doing. I make a new wallet every few months. Lots of watch bands but I'm fine doing those by hand. I'm making suspenders. I want to make a right weight vest for dancing. Making a daily bag is the real impetus for this purchase. Sometimes I make laptop sleeves. 

 

Thread size I couldn't really say. I like finer stitch lengths but use a good medium thread. 

[Starwind0]

8 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

The Consew 206RB-5 is a leather sewing machine for thicknesses not exceeding 3/8 inch and thread sizes not exceeding #138. It is fine up to those limits.

Personally, having sewn many double leather belts and more holsters than you can shake a stick at, I use a Cowboy CB4500 for that kind of work. It uses thread sizes 138 and UP, with thicknesses up to 7/8 inch. I have a several medium duty walking foot machines for lighter, thinner work and thinner thread.

In case you are wondering about how thin you can sew on a CB4500, or its little brother the CB3200, I have hemmed jeans and chaps on mine. There is a trick to it though. You remove the throat plate and feed dog and install the flat slotted plate instead (to prevent the cloth and soft leather from getting pushed into the feed dog hole and its rectangular slot). Then fit a #20 needle, thread it with #92 bonded, or #105 polycore jeans thread and stitch away.

Yeah the problem is that's going to cost me 3k to aquire. Which is more than my ultimakers 2+ extended 3d printer. If I found one used.. but anything over 1.5k is a burden. 

[brmax]

There are some great replies in the post above, and a spot on reply particularly mentioning two or another machine to do the other work.

Welcome to the hunt that many of us find part of the fun. In all this fun and your present projects, you need or want a machine.

These “machine” sewing threads that are optional for us only fit certain size machines no matter what. It would benefit you to pick only one to use per machine, honestly at this stage its a tip!

Having a bit of help sorting these sizes can be extremely helpful, though sometimes seem brutally honest. Especially when we think we can use one machine for many projects. 

Its tough but really is a benefit, and thats finding your budget no matter what.. followed by thread size.  This now is an automatic what and what cannot be your projects. 

 

Have a good day

Floyd 

[Starwind0]

I feel like I'm not communicating my use right.. let me present it a bit differently. 

I am looking for a machine that will allow me to do projects of 3 mm to at most 7 mm layers of leather.

Types of leather is Oak Leaf. Calf Skin (usually as liner), and more bag type pull up leather or rustic style leathers -- veg-tans. 

The only still labeled thread I have on my desk is 0.55mm. I would say that is 50% too small. Anything over 0.9mm would be more than adequate for my needs, and 1.5mm is too big. Anything that needs to be extra pretty, will be done by hand.

I do not need to do thick projects  like holsters. My impetus is, I don't want to do any more 1500+ stitch belt / strap style projects. They never get done. I also want to make a bag, but also don't want to do 4000+ stitches at weird angles by hand.

Cheap is fine. I started looking when that cobbler hand crank sewing machine started hitting youtube. But the price shot up and the build quality were too low. 

It's not an issue of can I come up with the funds, its more I don't think its' responsible for me to spend 3k on a hobby toy, I'm not a pro, I make no money. 

Seriously, why isn't there just cheap human powered ones... Or really slow ones. Industrials seem like such overkill. 

[Wizcrafts]

On 7/28/2019 at 4:41 AM, Starwind0 said:

The only still labeled thread I have on my desk is 0.55mm. I would say that is 50% too small.

I strongly recommend that you read this handy thread and needle chart to see the sizes of thread you are saying are too small. By my reckoning, .55mm is a little bigger than #207 (T210) bonded thread. If that is 50% too small, the closer size would be either #415 or #554. These are equivalent to 6 and 8 cord linen thread. #207 is close to 3 cord linen.

Now that the desired thread sizes are defined, it's time to narrow the field of available machines that can handle those sizes. Right off the bat, remove all tailoring and upholstery class machines. Gone! These max out with between #69 and #138 thread. Some high end Jukis and their clones can manage #207 on top and one Juki can handle it both on top and in the bobbin (LU-1508NH: about $2600). But, that is still 50% too small for your projects.

So, what class of sewing machine can actually handle #415 thread? That would be the 441 class. This is based on the Juki TSC-441. It is similar in specs to the discontinued Adler 205-374. It also includes some famous and very expensive needle and awl harness stitchers. I will link to a few examples below. These are the types of sewing machines you need to sew with 6 to 8 cord, or #415 to #554 bonded thread:

• Juki TSC-441 (bonded T410/#415 max)
• Adler 205-374 (bonded T410/#415 max)
• Adler 989 ECO (bonded T410/#415 max)
• The Cowboy CB4500 (bonded T410/#415 max)
• The Cobra Class 4 (bonded T410/#415 max)
• Techsew 5100 (bonded T410/#415 max)
• The Artisan TORO-3200 or 4000 (bonded T410/#415 max)
• Cowboy Outlaw hand cranked leather stitcher (bonded T410/#415 max)
• Boss hand cranked leather stitcher (bonded T410/#415 max)
• Campbell-Randall Lockstitch (#415 bonded, or 8 cord waxed linen)
• Union Lockstitch Machine (#554 bonded or 8 cord waxed linen)
• Landis 3 harness stitcher (obsolete)
• Landis 12 series sole stitchers
• American Straight Needle sole stitcher
• Frobana/Pederson hand cranked sole stitcher
• Junker and Ruh hand lever sole stitcher

[kgg]

9 hours ago, Starwind0 said:

I do not need to do thick projects  like holsters.

Wiz has picked up on the thread size you plan on using. Why do you need such heavy thread, is it just for looks on your projects.

1 hour ago, Wizcrafts said:

Right off the bat, remove all tailoring and upholstery call machines. Gone!

You are going to need heavy iron to punch through with those large diameter needles that will be needed for those size threads.

kgg

[Starwind0]

That's a good point. I'm basing it off looks and the spacing on my hand sew pieces. I don't care about looks in this case. You are right

 

Someone is offering a local Techsew 2700 pro walking foot for 2k, with all the bells and whistles. Says it's brand new but not the right machine for them. Thoughts? Price is higher than I want for a used machine but would cost me close the 3k with tax and shipping new. 

[Matt S]

No matter what machine you choose, I think you're going to struggle using v415 thread on wallets and watch bands. Machines simply can't sew thin stuff with thick threads. Big threads need about 4 thread diameters of thickness to hide the knot inside the work.

[Wizcrafts]

I have a TS 2700. It is a fine walking foot machine for thread up to #138 and no more than 3/8 inch seams.

[Wizcrafts]

The OP isn't aware of how lockstitches are formed yet. Here is an animation showing how the top thread picks up the bottom thread as it goes around the bobbin and draws the tow threads up between the layers.

The way lockstitches are formed requires enough material over and under the knots to conceal them (aka: bury the knots). First, the needle must be wide enough to open a hole large enough for the overlapped threads. That may be 2 to 3 times the diameter of the biggest thread. Then the thickness of the material has to fully bury those overlapped knots. That is often 4 times the size of the knots. So, a 1mm diameter thread requires a needle about 3mm diameter and the material/leather would have to be at least 6mm thick.

By comparison, when hand sewing an over/under saddle stitch, a 1mm thick thread will look beautiful on  both sides in 4 to 6 ounces of leather. That's because there are no overlapping knots to deal with.

[brmax]

Its always a benefit these days checking some youtube videos. I would suggest popcorn and searching: machine sewing leather wallets. 

Then filtering so to see some using 92 size threads. As typical dress wallets are likely using 69 threads, or some even less or thinner thread. 

I had mentioned it before and consider it important, thats using different color thread if one needs to highlight the thread. Versus using bigger thread, when strength is not needed. 

 

Good day

Floyd

[Starwind0]

2 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

The OP isn't aware of how lockstitches are formed yet. Here is an animation showing how the top thread picks up the bottom thread as it goes around the bobbin and draws the tow threads up between the layers.

The way lockstitches are formed requires enough material over and under the knots to conceal them (aka: bury the knots). First, the needle must be wide enough to open a hole large enough for the overlapped threads. That may be 2 to 3 times the diameter of the biggest thread. Then the thickness of the material has to fully bury those overlapped knots. That is often 4 times the size of the knots. So, a 1mm diameter thread requires a needle about 3mm diameter and the material/leather would have to be at least 6mm thick.

By comparison, when hand sewing an over/under saddle stitch, a 1mm thick thread will look beautiful on  both sides in 4 to 6 ounces of leather. That's because there are no overlapping knots to deal with.

Yeah I didn't realize that part. Thanks for the information. Yes I am thinking way too big because I do hand sewing mostly. But like my expencive Helm boots, they have smaller thread, and they do the job of holding the boot together, so that will really suite my needs to have a thinner thread. 


Photos would be good of what I make too.

Here are examples of what I've made lately (site is really bad about max file size!)

https://imgur.com/a/fPSjjaL

With the goal of making 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rS5vbJydQ0&t=441s

[Starwind0]

I'm considering the tech sew 2700 pro I saw last night. Though the guy is pretty firm with 2k. Looks lightly used and had the speed reducer. Looks like it does what I need. But I think he's over factoring his shipping cost as machine value. You can buy that new with warranty for like 2500. But more so it's 500 over my budget. What do you all think? Im considering just driving to Dallas and going to sunny at this point. For 2k I'd get a vacation and a machine. 

[kgg]

13 minutes ago, Starwind0 said:

Im considering just driving to Dallas and going to sunny at this point.

That is what I would do and bring some of what you want to sew along. They may have other machines (new /used) that may serve your present / future needs better once you test sew on them. Buy Once, Cry Once.

kgg

[brmax]

If your considering leather work, the machine and you will require a speed reducer unit on a sew machine, no matter if a servo is used. There are discussions on many ways to accomplish this “requirement” but just kindly accept the tip. 

I am seriously promoting  your traveling to a few places with machines. I think everyone here would guide you to standing in front of a few machines, especially setup for leather, which is a bit heavier and focused on projects requiring slow operations at times. 

Maybe pre travel, we can all better help select between a flat bed or a cylinder type machine as your last postings.  In any case some how getting your hands on some thread will surely help determine needs. But projects discussed in some other forums may help decide a direction when viewing others project photos. 

 

Good day

Floyd

[Starwind0]

12 hours ago, brmax said:

 

I am seriously promoting  your traveling to a few places with machines. I think everyone here would guide you to standing in front of a few machines, especially setup for leather, which is a bit heavier and focused on projects requiring slow operations at times. 

Yeah playing with it. I think a cylinder with a flat bed addition can really just do everything. Frankly, after playing with the machine I really don't get why people think I need 1 machine per task. I clearly was able to sew thick straps, thin lamb skin. Multiple layers. Long stitches, short lengths. Easily do wallets, bags, and straps like I said I want to do. He even showed me canvas he did. Granted some people will think I am including thick projects, like holsters. So either I am missing something major, but I got a bag full of samples for a wide array of tasks. I'm an engineer, the limiting factors I see with a sewing machine is, horse power, needle size, range for the presser feet, shape of the work area. 

That said the sell fell apart. Wasn't willing to even consider negotiation, and thinks its worth almost its full cost. I rather buy a cowboy in dallas for the same price. 

We will see what I do next. The shop hours are a real pain for us out of towners.

[brmax]

Surely you can take off during the week.

I have found through the years more professional business are in fact closed on weekends, and I agreed as a technical tradesman. Really I could careless about overtime, because life is more important. Although I did work a bit of ot in my day, but thats another book Im not writing. 

Another machine will turn up in your hunt, I say theres just getting all the elements particular to it. Have a good day

 

Floyd

[Wizcrafts]

On 7/31/2019 at 12:16 PM, Starwind0 said:

Im considering just driving to Dallas

Then look up Solar Leather Machines in Arlington, Texas, between Dallas and Fort Worth. They probably have or can get what you need.

[mikesc]

I think Solar is the one he was referring to..which is shut on weekends.
Shut Sunday I can understand, ( everyone could do with a day off per week, even if they are not religious ) but to shut Saturday too..unless the business owners ( not thinking only of Solar there, but in general it seems weird to me for any business to be shut all week-end ) are orthodox..?
Here lots of places are shut Sunday, and from 12.00hrs 'til 14.00hrs on all the other days..which, as I always think when they tell me , means they are only catering to the unemployed or the retirees, because every body else is working ( and would need to take time off, or close their own business to go shopping ) when they are open..
Then again, I haven't been "open to the public, or any type customers" on any day of the week, since 2003..still in business(es), but no "face to face" on my turf.

Starwind0 , I hope that you find someone who is willing to stretch their opening times or days to accommodate you, and exchange your money, at a fair price to you both, for a machine that you'll be happy with.

Edited August 1, 2019 by mikesc

[SolarLeatherMachines]

1 hour ago, mikesc said:

I think Solar is the one he was referring to..which is shut on weekends.
Shut Sunday I can understand, ( everyone could do with a day off per week, even if they are not religious ) but to shut Saturday too..unless the business owners ( not thinking only of Solar there, but in general it seems weird to me for any business to be shut all week-end ) are orthodox..?
Here lots of places are shut Sunday, and from 12.00hrs 'til 14.00hrs on all the other days..which, as I always think when they tell me , means they are only catering to the unemployed or the retirees, because every body else is working ( and would need to take time off, or close their own business to go shopping ) when they are open..
Then again, I haven't been "open to the public, or any type customers" on any day of the week, since 2003..still in business(es), but no "face to face" on my turf.

Starwind0 , I hope that you find someone who is willing to stretch their opening times or days to accommodate you, and exchange your money, at a fair price to you both, for a machine that you'll be happy with.

I AM Solar Leather Machines.  I'm 47 yo, and I work from 7 am to about 6:30 pm Monday through Friday.  I NEED SLEEP.  And to spend time with my Wife and Family.  And so do my employees.  So, Yah, we're closed on weekends.