When can you call yourself a craftsman?

[robs456]

Dudes, excuse my absence in this very important thread. But let me end the artist/artisan confusion forever:

Artist -drinks wine, eats oysters and/or foie gras.

Artisan -drinks beer, eats fried chicken and/or fish.

 

[mikesc]

Unfortunately, despite loving wine, and having a large collection of full bottles of very good wine ( some people only have a large collection of empty bottles ) :)
I became allergic ( not the sulphites, happens with organic wine too ) to something in red wine about 10 years ago..
Never could see the thing about oysters, they are like having a really heavy cold and swallowing, snot with shells on.
Foie gras, no thanks , the way they make it is disgusting and cruel..bad for the geese, and bad for humans too, fills your arteries with crap, your intestines too, ( yes I know they are already full of crap )neighbour who loves the stuff has had two operations for intestinal cancer already, his surgeon has told him ( remember this is France ) "lay off the foie gras before it kills you"..

Back in the day when passports had one's profession written on them..mine said Artist / Designer.

Nowadays they ( passport authorities of UK and Eire in my case ) don't have that "field"..if they did, it would read as it did previously.

I see both here ( and in offline life ) many many examples of work by both hobbyists and professional leather workers that in my opinion are certainly worthy of the label "Craftsman"..many certainly worthy of "Artisan", as relating to the quality of the work, most of them are much better than I can do as regards some of the specific techniques, I'm also now a bit old to have the time available to me to perfect techniques to such levels..that kind of technical perfection takes time..Leather work is not my main business nor interest, I'd rather spend the time I have on the things which are.

I also see here some people's work ( I've never seen them describe themselves as Artists, but I consider them to be the perfect blend of artist and artisan, well above my skill level ), I'm thinking in particular of those who are currently posting on the site here, but not yet in this thread..RockyAussie, and Rolandranch..and for work that makes me smile each time I see it at the level of artistry ABhandmade..Of those who no longer post , Azmal / Prince and a lady who did a lot of work with decorative leather combined with horn , who's "nick" I cannot remember at the moment..There are currently , and have been others, but those stand out to me..

Tangential to the OPs question, if I may make a suggestion..get out of basic belts and wallets..

"The world and his / her dog" are doing them, you can always be undercut on pricing, whether it is by the stand next to you, or the other side of the fair, at the craft-fair, or the Chinese with free shipping..

Explaining why the customer should buy quality over mass produced or "roughly finished" ?..

Heinlein said it years ago..teaching pigs to sing , annoys both you and the pigs"..and I would add, is a futile waste of your time..

They either want quality, know what it is, and will pay for it.or they won't..all the time you spend explaining to them, is time that you are not doing what you want to be doing..and all any of us have is time..
If they want cheap, let the other guy or girl make it..Once you begin "price matching"..you'll be competing with guys like the Kenyan ( or with those who import ) who posted recently offering leatherwork at $4.00 per hour.

Yesterday I saw ( at the "hat fair" that I mentioned in another thread) a stand with obvious Indian handbags and belts marked "handmade"..their prices would not cover the cost of the leather..But they looked the part, only the dog didn't have a pony tail and beads..they had lots of "lookers" , but very few buyers. Belts were badly finished "splits" with top finishing..equivalent pricing in Euros to USD $30.oo to USD$50.oo per belt, ( no stitching around, only at buckle, and in the wrong direction ) and bags ( with badly hand stitched, and badly machine stitched work ) at USD$50.oo to USD$100.oo.. again some "lookers" no buyers..

The only real artisan, retired ( Compagnon du Devoir ) there, who I mentioned in that other thread
link about the Compagnons du Devoir ..( copy and paste into your address bar..hit "go" )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnons_du_Devoir
was just demonstrating making belts and card holders and wallets on a small table, with basic tools..he had a few card holders for sale €12.oo each, a few wallets at €20.oo each, no price on the belts, but if anyone asked, they were €30.oo , but he said "they are not dyed , nor finished..they are not for sale here, I'm merely showing what we can teach your children ( from age 4 to 14 ) to make at our free classes..You can bring them next week and buy a belt, let your kids see what we can teach them".."Not just leatherwork, also stone carving and a host of other things, trying to get kids interested in working with their hands"..
He was surrounded, he was cutting, stitching belts around one per 15 minutes( using a French clamp), explaining as he went..
If you are going to sell belts , wallets and card holders, make some in front of the people..have some others ready to go..

But..I come back to it..

Much better to make something that others do not or make yours very different, ( filigree, or carved, or multicoloured dyed ) or offer names ( to be sent on later, paid in advance at the stand ) make them more expensive..Maybe put some bondage cuffs* out..just enough to get some interest from those who won't ask how much, but will ask "can you do"..and when you say you can, but that it will be ..... and will need paying "upfront"..Those who order, will keep you busy enough to not regret being" too expensive" compared to the guy who calls himself a "craftsman"..

Go "upmarket"..add some "sizzle"..
You are not selling to us ..nor to JLS :)
You are selling to people who have been conditioned by the ad business..( another of many areas in which I have worked ) ..they like "presentation".."entertainment".. don't tell them "hand made" and "high quality"..Hand make something of high quality..right before their eyes..
And have some "already made and finished" ready to go ..

It is irrelevant to sales of leather goods to the non leatherworking public what the leatherworkers would buy, or what we leatherworkers want to hear..or not hear.

*Depends on the venue..church folks will probably buy them, ( huge numbers of them do ) they might not want them out on view though..

edited to add ..everywhere that I write "man" as in Craftsman etc ..please also read "woman"..it makes the text unreadable if I try to make each word "neutral".

Edited July 22, 2019 by mikesc

[chrisash]

Brilliant mike

[fredk]

On 7/21/2019 at 9:10 PM, mikesc said:

An artisan is not a combination of artist and craftsman..Michelangelo was an artist, the artisans did what he designed..artisan is, if you will, a grade above craftsman..an artisan is rarely a creator ( when they are, they are an artist ), but is a highly skilled craftsman.
A sculptor is an artist..a stone mason is an artisan.
. . .

 

13 hours ago, chrisash said:

The Oxford dictionary description of a artisan, does not have quite the same meaning but rather watered down to modern times

artisan | Definition of artisan in English by Oxford Dictionaries

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/artisan

noun. 1A worker in a skilled trade, especially one that involves making things by hand. 'street markets where local artisans display handwoven textiles, painted ceramics, and leather goods'

unfortunately here in N.I. it has been watered down so much more that no-one really knows the meaning and its just attached to anything and everything as a modern catch-all phrase

[Handstitched]

19 hours ago, mikesc said:

Never could see the thing about oysters, they are like having a really heavy cold and swallowing, snot with shells on.

Aw geez  , that had me in tears  !!! My sentiments exactly . Looks like someone has gobbed into a shell  and then  people eat it 

 

19 hours ago, mikesc said:

Heinlein said it years ago..teaching pigs to sing , annoys both you and the pigs".

I wondered where that came from, I quoted that in another post not knowing where it came from , I saw on a coffee cup   . " Never try to teach a pig to sing, its  wastes your time  and annoys the pig " 

22 hours ago, robs456 said:

Artist -drinks wine, eats oysters and/or foie gras.

Artisan -drinks beer, eats fried chicken and/or fish.

 Leather worker - eats what ever is cheap or  on special at the local supermarket  & this is the only job he can do while enjoying a beer in the arvo ....and not get the sack   

HS 

[robs456]

16 minutes ago, Handstitched said:

this is the only job he can do while enjoying a beer in the arvo ....and not get the sack   

Oh, and watching movies on the job, wearing only underwear (pref when working alone perhaps, and maybe not while using extremely sharp cutlery), checking relevant forums during drying times etc...

[Handstitched]

19 hours ago, robs456 said:

Oh, and watching movies on the job

Yep, you got that bit right, as for wearing my undies while working ? That might scare my customers off    and besides, like you said, sharp tools, dyes and chemicals , that could be hazardous . Try explaining that to the insurance company. 

HS 

[robs456]

45 minutes ago, Handstitched said:

Try explaining that to the insurance company. 

HS 

[cdthayer]

I like to treadle my machines barefooted, but I won’t say what other clothing that I may or may not have on while sewing.  Only my shop dog knows, and he ain’t tellin’.

But getting back to the main topic of “When can you call yourself a craftsman?”, it’s sort of unfair to compare the term Craftsman of today to the great Al Stohlman of 60 years ago.  (I first learned of Al Stohlman when I was around 14 years old (1966) and took leathercraft in 4H.  He was already a legend at that time.)

We may need to come up with a new definition of “Craftsman” to compare today with bygone years.  When it comes to sewing machines, back in 1966, some shops were still using treadles.  Real “Craftsmen” learned how to coordinate their feet and hands to be proficient with a treadle sewing machine.  Other shops had long switched to clutch motors (1940s) and were enjoying electrification.  Boy, can I imagine the excitement when the first clutch motors hit the market!  Some treadle operators were no doubt intimidated, while those that weren’t worth a damn at treadling probably then had a shot at employment.

Clutch motors went through one improvement after another, making them supposedly easier to control and more efficient (I still think that the early Atlas Clutch Motors were the best.).  Operators took great pride in becoming “good” with a clutch motor, and that improved their chances of employment.  It was all in the “feathering”, and had to be learned with lots of practice. Speed reducers were added to help with control (reducing the need to be able to feather) and for torque.  

Then, along came the Servo motors completely eliminating the need for “feathering”.  And then came improvements to the servo motors.  Then needle positioning and other enhancements to make sewing machines easier to operate.  Computerized sewing machines can now do all of the “work” after the operator does a few things to set the machine up, push the button, and wait for the machine to finish.  Is a person that selects computer programming to initiate a machine function also a “Craftsman”?

We’re getting to be such a “plug-n-play” world now, that the term Craftsman is slowly becoming immaterial.  We may need a new term for today’s bragging rights.

CD in Oklahoma

[fredk]

interesting input CD

But even waaaaaaaaay back 'Crafts' man meant somat different. In his memoirs a soldier of the 95th Rifles said he was called a 'Craft' as he knew how to repair boots. He was a 'Crafts Man' even though he was not trained as a cobbler, he had been a clerk before.

me; barefoot, thats how I find dropped rivets, sewing needles, stitching punches.... Usually no shirt on either, keeps the sleevies out of the dye. Splashes of dye on skin can be covered up later, on a shirt it means a ruined shirt

[cdthayer]

31 minutes ago, fredk said:

me; barefoot, thats how I find dropped rivets, sewing needles, stitching punches....

I hear ya.  I’m near to calling myself “proficient” at finding nipped jeans rivets on my floor with my bare feet.  I do a lot of repairs on jeans hip pockets, particularly Wrangler, that have rivets.  I sew reinforcement denim into the seat of the jeans and reattach the pocket and install a new rivet.  I’ve said many times that wire fences and hydraulic hoses have helped make me a living for several years.  A large man with a large tool in his hip pocket going through/under a fence, or stepping over the drawbar on a piece of equipment that has hanging hydraulic hoses, has way too much forward inertia to stop when that big tool gets hung up, resulting in a torn hip pocket.

When I repair the denim jeans, I nip the old rivet off with one of two pairs of nippers that I have, and invariably, once in a while a piece of that rivet gets away from me.  I can hear it ricocheting off of the ceiling or walls, but seldom do I see where it actually ends up.  It’s small, only half of a rivet, and squished flat to a surprisingly sharp cutting edge by my nippers.

Eventually, I find it, using the tried and true “bare foot method”.

CD in Oklahoma

 

[Alexis1234]

Tried to edit my comment on this thread, but I cannot. I just want to clarify about the hand stitching part I mentioned: As an average consumer, I could care less if my wallet, belt or handbag was hand stitched( I don't make them and don't care)... however, with my interests being  with carriage harness,  if someone goes to a larger higher end shop, generally speaking, the keepers are hand stitched, if not a few other parts and it is advertised as such. To me, as a consumer( I have been there), it means the maker paid enough attention to the small details. As far as harness goes, the difference between a $400 harness and a $2,000 harness is in the details and finish work. Just my opinion.

[JDT]

On 7/22/2019 at 11:40 AM, mikesc said:

Much better to make something that others do not or make yours very different, ( filigree, or carved, or multicoloured dyed ) or offer names ( to be sent on later, paid in advance at the stand ) make them more expensive..Maybe put some bondage cuffs* out..just enough to get some interest from those who won't ask how much, but will ask "can you do"..and when you say you can, but that it will be ..... and will need paying "upfront"..Those who order, will keep you busy enough to not regret being" too expensive" compared to the guy who calls himself a "craftsman"..

Go "upmarket"..add some "sizzle"..
You are not selling to us ..nor to JLS
You are selling to people who have been conditioned by the ad business..( another of many areas in which I have worked ) ..they like "presentation".."entertainment".. don't tell them "hand made" and "high quality"..Hand make something of high quality..right before their eyes..
And have some "already made and finished" ready to go ..

It is irrelevant to sales of leather goods to the non leatherworking public what the leatherworkers would buy, or what we leatherworkers want to hear..or not hear.

To add a bit to this, you could try beating this guy at his own shtick. He's "making" belts in front of people by adding a buckle to some unfinished, poorly dyed leather.

Have some unfinished projects that you can work on at your stand in front of people to explain how you do things, why they make a difference, and shows the quality of your work. You should also have samples of the different types and thicknesses of leather you work with, samples of dyed leather to show the color options, thread samples, and the various hardware you use. With all of this, you can walk a person through "designing" their own product. Your finished products will give them ideas of the patterns you can do and they can take part in the process by choosing colors, textures, and making some small customizations. If you do carving, have examples of different patterns and you could even offer to do a pattern the customer comes up with. Stamping names would also be a great addition.

Edited July 25, 2019 by JDT

[mikesc]

to explain how you do things, why they make a difference, and shows the quality of your work. You should also have samples of the different types and thicknesses of leather you work with, samples of dyed leather to show the color options, thread samples, and the various hardware you use. With all of this, you can walk a person through "designing" their own product. Your finished products will give them ideas of the patterns you can do and they can take part in the process by choosing colors, textures, and making some small customizations. If you do carving, have examples of different patterns and you could even offer to do a pattern the customer comes up with. Stamping names would also be a great addition.

All that takes time..space ..and any "explaining" is "teaching pigs to sing"..allowing customers to "take part" is allowing unskilled unimaginative people to direct ( or try to ) what you make.. Offering to make a pattern that they come up with ? ..Are they designers ? Whose fault will it be when their pattern idea turns out to be ugly crap..it will ..or it will take hours, for which they will want to pay peanuts..are they going to pay up front for your time ?..if they do ? They will think that as they are paying for the time, that they'll own you..

Nope..not the way to go..
Make what others do not make ( as I said previously ) ..bring it ready made..that is what you are "selling"..
At the "event" do something really simple "live" to get their attention, draw a crowd...stamping names is not something that can be done accurately "live"..you'll be too busy watching that no-one walks off with a stamp, lets their kids touch anything, cuts themselves while they are "just looking" ( which for some reason people don't do with their eyes, but with their hands..looking is looking..touching is something else..etc etc..

btw..if you have anything at all that they can injure themselves with..make sure that you are insured..do not trust the venue to cover you..

Edited July 25, 2019 by mikesc
Typos

[Handstitched]

G'Day,   My gratitude & respect to all that have contributed to this topic   

This is just a bit of an update. At the market where all this developed, I was outside  in  my gazebo and in earshot of the ' competitor'  . I was outside because the hall I would normally be in  was  going to be worked   on,  repairs etc. ( politics & bureaucracy & BS  have now  delayed that work  until next year)   Moving on... Next market, I'll be back inside. This had me thinking , at another market I once attended, as I mentioned  before, I did do leather craft demo's ,fast forward...  I  now see opportunity    From all those demo's , I have a bag full of leathercraft samples. Carved , stamped, silhouetted ,  dyed ( at home) , handstitched  etc. Now this sort of touches on what JDT said " Have some unfinished projects that you can work on at your stand in front of people to explain how you do things, why they make a difference, and shows the quality of your work" . So I'll put those samples on display, and maybe start doing demo's again . I'll also show samples of different leather, thicknesses etc. as suggested. 

HS 

[chrisash]

It's hard to do something and sell at the same time, a salesman normally tells you of the features

One way would be to make a sample video of say 3 to 4 minutes of you doing the basic steps of making one  product and show it on a large screen notebook or monitor, 3 to 4 min gives a fair amount to show you snippets of the process and quick enough to keep viewers watching, after the first video you could expand it to say Belts, Wallets, Tack or whatever all running one after another, just remember like YouTube its better to have little talking on it, but good visuals

Just a idea as I never work fair's and don't know your market, but a video running leaves you free to sell and the screen shows the effort you make in the products

[JDT]

5 hours ago, chrisash said:

It's hard to do something and sell at the same time, a salesman normally tells you of the features

One way would be to make a sample video of say 3 to 4 minutes of you doing the basic steps of making one  product and show it on a large screen notebook or monitor, 3 to 4 min gives a fair amount to show you snippets of the process and quick enough to keep viewers watching, after the first video you could expand it to say Belts, Wallets, Tack or whatever all running one after another, just remember like YouTube its better to have little talking on it, but good visuals

Just a idea as I never work fair's and don't know your market, but a video running leaves you free to sell and the screen shows the effort you make in the products

True, but that's also because most salespeople can barely operate a phone and fill out an invoice.

It certainly takes practice. This is essentially a form of technical sales, only you're not selling a specific item, but rather your craftmanship and tying it to finished pieces and potentially commissioned work. The practice part is important though. Having given plenty of live demonstrations (not on leatherworking, but the concept is broadly applicable), you definitely want to work on it at home and in front of a friendly audience that can critique you (just narrating what you're doing to your dog or cat is a decent starting point if you have trouble speaking while working). What I'm advocating for wouldn't even be anything particularly difficult. Cutting some small patterns, beveling, skiving, etc. Things that can be done with a few small hand tools which you can quickly demo and then point to a finished product and how it improves the completed piece.

I'm not a fan of just having a video running. It would require setup that may not be practical at a fair booth. You may also have issues with getting sound at a level that both works for customers and doesn't overly annoy the neighbors. It also takes attention away from you and the items you're selling. Too many salespeople use powerpoints and canned videos as a crutch. It often ends up being either too sanitized, rambling, or a combination of the two. This is an entire other skillset to learn.

Edited July 26, 2019 by JDT

[Rockoboy]

As a customer at this type of venue and a very occasional vendor, I really like the idea of doing some small task connected to the pieces you are selling, ie skiving in preparation for next weeks batch of cases or cutting out some projects, but I believe if your attention was taken away from your saleable goods, you would need to have a salesperson watching over the retail side of the booth. Even with a fully attentive person watching a booth, sometimes things go for a walk!

As for the video idea, I would only use this idea IF there was a dangerous/smelly/otherwise offensive process or needed heavy equipment to illustrate, but I would not have it on loop.

[Handstitched]

20 hours ago, Rockoboy said:

you would need to have a salesperson watching over the retail side of the booth. Even with a fully attentive person watching a booth, sometimes things go for a walk!

Hey RB, long time no hear   

I agree, in my own words," you need eyes in your bum when when operating a market stall " 

Thankfully, I have my ' good ol' Mum'  that helps me on my stall ,  she sells her locally made handicrafts with me , all her colourful crafts attract peeps to my stall  , also my 'stall neighbor' is a good friend. We keep a look out on each other's stall and arrange  bookings at shows etc.  so we are together . And after doing markets for over 15 years, which roughly equates to around  1100-1200 assorted markets, shows etc. I have also become 'market stall savvy'   . Arranging the stall for  easy access, presentation, and security ...and keep my EFTPOS  *gizmo out of view  

*That really is  its name, ' Gizmo' .  A nice  handstitched leather carry-all case is on the cards . 

HS 

[Handstitched]

Just a quick update.

The 'competitor ' wasn't at the regular market today,  why? I don't know & I don't  care , suits me fine. However, I am still going ahead with leather  demo's  in the next month or so. I got the go- ahead from the organiser  today   He seemed  quite supportive of it actually    , it is a ' craft market'  after all . I just need to get my demo  stuff together .

 But this entire subject has been a good learning experience for me . Its helped me to look at my business from a different perspective, and perhaps help me to lift my game in some areas.

Thanks to all  

HS