Cobra vs Cowboy

[RemingtonSteel]

As little as two years ago, there was a significant lower price incentive for buying Cowboy sewing machines over comparable model Cobra sewing machines. Now that the price of Cowboy sewing machines have jumped up, they are virtually the same price as their comparable Cobra model sewing machines. So my question is: Is there any benefit of buying a Cowboy sewing machine over a Cobra sewing machine?  Example Cowboy CB3500 ($2,595 at time of writing) vs Cobra Class 3 ($2,635 at time of writing). To me, for $40 more, why not go with the Cobra.

I'd love to know thoughts either way.

[nylonRigging]

All the 441 import cylinder arms sold in US are pretty competitive priced . I would go with what is closer for pick-up or delivery . Your down in California.on your profile, so why not go with Artisan Toro down in Cal. ? . and there ( 3200 mdl.) with ( ped 500 ) . Same specs. as the cowboy and Cobra . But It has 12"inch Work arm and on-board bobbin wind . looks like it's 2420-$ on the Artisan website . Artisan sews good and they answer there phone, stand behind what they sell similar like cowboy and cobra sales .

.edit add .. you live close to Sacramento/San fransico area, pretty big population so must be a lot of used sew machines  . Can you find Used 441 clone down there ?  if worried about funds .

.

Edited November 19, 2019 by nylonRigging

[JJN]

I just saw this in Anderson, CA. Ferdco Pro-2000. $1700

https://sacramento.craigslist.org/for/d/anderson-ferdco-saddle-sewing-machine/7021444529.html

[RemingtonSteel]

@nylonRigging Thanks, I hadn't looked at Artisans for over a year, and have just about forgotten about them.  I didn't realize that they were our of the SF/Bay Area, That would save about $300 in shipping charges if I could pick it up.  Although I could pick up a Cobra in L.A., with today's California gas prices, it would cost me about that much to drive down and back not to mention 12+ hours of driving.  The 12" cylinder arm is a definite plus over the Cobra class 3 or Cowboy CB3500's 9" cylinder arms for about the same price.  I will look into them more.  My biggest concern with the Artisan is the closeups of sample stitched work on their website.  It looks like the feet are leaving marks on the front surface of the leather, which makes me wonder what the back (feed dog side) looks like. Check out the saddle tan and medium brown sample close ups https://www.artisansew.com/leatherstitchingmachine.html.

@JJN Thanks for the link.  As this is my first machine, I have thought a great deal about getting a used one in good condition, but my searches have never turn up anything locally that I can go look at and take for a test drive. Although Anderson is a little bit of a drive (about 2 1/2 hours each way) ,  i did reach out to the seller, asking for more information about the machine.  Based on the look of the machine and the stand, it looks to be a slightly older model. it does have the additional advantage of having what looks like a 16" cylinder arm as well as what I am guessing to be a wax pot.  Biggest concern with buying used would be who do I turn to for repairs if any are needed, or support in learning how to use the machine?

Both are very good options for getting a leather stitching machine at a reasonable cost.

[Ken Nelson]

I would go with the Pro 2000 if I were close.  If the machine is working good you will not have problems and you can pull down a manual from the artisan site or utube videos on how to use and adjust them.  And get more help than you would believe here from very knowledge people.

[RemingtonSteel]

I just got a reply from the seller.  He said it was his dad's who purchased it new about 20 years ago and that it was running smoothly when last used a year ago. I asked about the motor type clutch or servo, this is his reply:  "I don't know about the servo/clutch. If it is an indicator, a motor runs when it's powered on and not sewing".  I don't know enough about them but my assumption based on his description would be a clutch motor.  Also from what I have read, they are more difficult to operate.  Anyone know if my assumption is correct?

Any idea of what it would cost to replace the motor with a servo motor and speed reducer if I am correct?  Answered my own question about the cost. Approx. $310 plus shipping for a servo motor and a speed reducer based on Leather Machine Co's pricing.

Edited November 19, 2019 by RemingtonSteel

[JREESER1]

I live in Utah, and got my Cobra 4-p from Steve Tayrie at Leather Machine in Ontario Cal. in 1914. He was so understanding with my personal problems and made sure to see I got exactly what I dreamed of. Call him at Leather Machine Co, Inc. Warehouse 2141 E. Philadelphia St. “U” Ontario, CA. 91761

Business Hours: 8 am to 3:00 pm (PST), Monday thru Friday Contact: Customer Service 8 am to 3:00 pm (PST), Monday thru Friday 866-962-9880 Email: cobra@leathermachineco.com

I promise Steve will find out all you need and make sure you get what will do the best job. I cannot feel any better endorsing Leather Machine Co. Great knowledgeable service and they take all time needed to answer every question. Great owner and staff. Good People!

jr 

[JLSleather]

19 hours ago, RemingtonSteel said:

To me, for $40 more, why not go with the Cobra.

So, somebody convinced you that the Cobra was "better"?@!

[RemingtonSteel]

JLSleather, I think you may have taken what I said wrong, as no one convinced me of anything. I have no first hand knowledge of any leather sewing machine, to say that one is better than another.  I based my statement on a couple of simple facts. First, if I am not mistaken, Cobra has been around longer than Cowboy, and that Steve at Leather Machine Co. has excellent reviews here (not that those selling Cowboy machines don't.) Secondly, he is located in CA, which is where I live and shipping may be less (never got far enough with him to ask.)  What I am convinced of is that I probably wouldn't go wrong with either a Cobra or a Cowboy, as both appear to be fine sewing machines and are equally loved by members here on this site.  The one thing I do know is that either machine has to beat sewing leather gun belts by hand... ouch.  Who knows, I may just end up getting the Ferdco Pro 2000.  I apologize if I came across as implying that the Cobra was better than the Cowboy, as that was not my intent.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by RemingtonSteel

[RemingtonSteel]

JREESER1, I have already contacted Steve, and his recommendation is: 

I suggest the COBRA Class 4S over the Class 3 because some gun belts are very large and bulky and you will need that extra space. All of my customers that make holsters use the Class 4.

I really appreciated his feedback, and I think the reasoning behind his statement is sound.  The problem that I have is, right now this is a hobby for me, and i am having a hard enough time justifying spending $2600 for a class 3, so getting a class 4 at this time is a tough nut for me to swallow... If this was a business, that would be a different story.  So I have to admit that getting a used Ferdco Pro 2000 with a 16" arm for around $2,000 (which would include upgrading to a servo motor and speed reducer) or something similar may be the best option for me.

I appreciate everyone's feedback, and I hope it keeps coming. I think for most leather workers, hobbyist or business, figuring out what sewing machine to get, may be the hardest decision to make. So this thread, however improperly titled it may be, is extremely useful in helping me gather the facts that I need to make a sound decision.

[JJN]

@RemingtonSteel, from the photo, it looks like it already has a speed reducer. All you need is the server motor. Make an offer that takes the cost of the server motor into consideration. I have an earlier Ferdco-Juki Pro2000 that has the same table and speed reducer. My machine also came with a clutch motor that I replaced with the inexpensive Family Sew servo motor. This machine looks like new.

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by JJN

[RemingtonSteel]

JJN,  I think I may do just that.  The machine looks clean and well taken care of, although that is no indication of performance or disrepair.  The table would not be my first choice, but that can always be upgraded down the road as well.  Not sure how you found this, because I did a search just yesterday on Sacramento Craigslist for both a Leather sewing machine and Industrial sewing machine, and this did not come up in the list, nor does it come up if I do a search today.  Regardless, I appreciate you pointing me in that direction.  It is worth pursuing. 

[JJN]

@RemingtonSteel, here is my advise on searching CL. Leave the 'leather' out of the search. If you have too many terms, you restrict the search results. If the seller doesn't have that word in the title, it won't come up. Sometimes a seller won't even put 'sewing machine' in the title. I have seen listings with only maker name and model number without any reference to it being a sewing machine. I have seen them listed as a stitcher. I search for single terms like sewing machine, Juki, Consew, Pfaff, Adler and Ferdco. I have found some great deals at bargain prices. When you see a deal, don't hesitate as they will disappear within a few hours.

Edited November 19, 2019 by JJN

[RemingtonSteel]

JJN,  I think I needed to also expand my search radius. When I did that, it came up in the listing.  But thanks for the other tips as they will be helpful for future searches. 

Made the offer, now I just need to wait on the seller to get back to me on whether or not he accepts it.

UPDATE:  He just got back to me and accepted the offer.  I think it is fair for both parties involved.

Edited November 19, 2019 by RemingtonSteel

[RemingtonSteel]

Any suggestions on the best way to transport a sewing machine of this type to prevent damage?  I have a pickup truck, should I strap the whole unit standing up to the front of the bed behind the cab, or should I detach the head from the table, and transport the head in the cab and the table standing or lying in the back, or any other method?

[AA3JW]

I bought a used techsew in Ocala about a 3 hour drive from my home on the east coast of Fl. I took pictures of the machine as it was set up in place, then removed the head, and put it in the cab, and strapped the table down in the back. It traveled just fine that way. Got home and put it all together, worked like a champ.

[RemingtonSteel]

AA3JW, I was thinking that would be the best approach, but it never hurts to ask.   I guess I better bring some open end wrenches and a socket set just to be safe, as well as some other misc. tools.  Taking pictures is always a good idea, thanks for the reminder.

Not thrilled with the table it comes with as it may not fit in my shop where I want it to go, so I am looking into the cost of an adjustable height stand like the ones that come with Cobra class 4 and Cowboy CB 4500. Anyone have any leads on where to get them?  I reached out to Bob Kovar to ask if he sells them, but will have to wait until tomorrow for a response.

Edited November 20, 2019 by RemingtonSteel
Added a thought.

[dikman]

I did that with every machine I bought, although not having a trailer meant completely dismantling the table too! It should be pretty obvious how things fit together.

Definitely let the head ride in comfort, it's the most important part. If it's got a clutch motor I'd take it off too as it's a lot of dead weight to be attached to a table that could be bouncing around in a trailer. Looks like a good buy.

[RemingtonSteel]

dikman,  great suggestion on removing the motor as well.  Really the more I remove, the easier it will be to move by myself when I get home.  Yes, I'm hoping it looks as good in person as it does in the picture, and that it runs well. If it does I will be very pleased with the purchase. I am keeping my finger crossed until Saturday. 

On another note, I am amazed when comparing the above picture to a picture of the Cowboy CB4500, just how identical they both look. You could almost swap badges and most people wouldn't know the difference.  I am wondering if all parts, certain parts, or no parts are interchangeable between most of the 441 clones?

[JJN]

@RemingtonSteel, that is great! Make sure they find all the feet, needle plates and bobbins that they have. I think I may see the instruction manuals in the photo. Order some fresh lily white sewing machine oil. I think you scored a very nice machine. I hope it turns out to be as good as it seems when you inspect it in person. I looked for a pedestal stand for my machine and found that they were too expensive. I may weld one up and use the top from the Ferdco table on it. Hopefully you can fit this table in your shop and use it as is for a while. I agree with the advise given above to remove the head, 4 bolts, and set it in your truck. Warning, it is heavy!. Be careful it does not tip over or set on parts that can bend or snap off. I have a large styrofoam piece that another machine was shipped in and use it to place the head on when transporting. If you take the motor off (good idea), you will probably have to remove several staples holding the power cord to the bottom of the table top. Good luck and have a safe trip!

Edited November 20, 2019 by JJN

[nylonRigging]

4 hours ago, RemingtonSteel said:

JJN,  I think I needed to also expand my search radius. When I did that, it came up in the listing.  But thanks for the other tips as they will be helpful for future searches. 

Made the offer, now I just need to wait on the seller to get back to me on whether or not he accepts it.

UPDATE:  He just got back to me and accepted the offer.  I think it is fair for both parties involved.

Cool you got the bigboy 16" arm . you will like it . I got a 16" longarm flatbed single needle and all that extra room is nice sometimes .

Just a HeadsUp .. You got to carry it up any stairs when you get home  ?? ...LOL . . That Pro2000 16" head , is going to a lot heavier than you think when you put your back into it to pick it up and carry to your truck .

.

[dikman]

My recent research into buying a 441 from China indicates the head could be around 70-80 kgs so at least 150 lbs. Again, from what I can find out the head castings are probably all the same with the difference being how they are finished off by the individual factory and fitted out. Theoretically all the parts should be interchangeable (one seller actually advertises that Juki 441 parts will fit their machine) - but I wouldn't like to guarantee it!

As for a servo, there are many available, it all depends how much you want to spend or if you want a particular type/brand.

Exciting times ahead!

[Bert51]

When I pick up a new to me machine, I put the head in the car, normally behind the drivers seat wrapped in an old sheet on the floor, (if it has a sump I drain the oil and sit it back in the sump). Then I remove everything on the top of the table and remove it from the legs, leaving the motor and other bits in place, turn it upside down and place it on a old blanket in the back, undo the legs if I can and put them with the upside down table.

Bert.

[MikeRock]

Be double damned sure you restrain the head securely if on the front seat.....  seat belts and maybe even a ratchet strap around the seat back.  One emergency stomp on the brakes and the head could be junk.....

Been there and it hurt.  It was an expensive butchers scale.....  was...

[Bert51]

She who must be obeyed sometimes would not let me buy any more machines, if she had to sit in the back.

Bert.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Bert51