How To Mix Gum Trag From Crystals? & Should I?

[TanDan]

Hi all,

I'm based in the UK, most of our local gum tragacanth is only really available in a powdered or crystal form normally used in baking.  I have been playing around with mixing some up for edge burnishing.

1Tsp of crushed gum trag crystals to 200ml of luke warm water, makes a nice mix. Similar to the consistency of wallpaper paste. Time will tell how long it will keep for, I fear that it may go bad quite quickly as I don't think the gum trag crystals are sterile.

Do other people do this? or should I stop being a skinflint and pay out for the Fiebings one from the US or possibly the synthetic one from Craft in Japan.

 

[zuludog]

I'd say that if you're thinking of changing from the powder (which I've never used) I'd go straight to TOKONOLE and not bother with  made up gum trag.

I've used both Tandy Eco-Flo gum tragacanth and Tokonole , which is made by Seiwa, and the Tokonole is much better

Surf the Net and you might find a seller on Ebay or Amazon or something, but I got mine from www.goodsjapan.com. I seem to remember that it was about £11 including shipping for a 120ml pot, and about 2 weeks delivery; but don't hold me to it. 

Polish & burnish the edge with sandpaper, then water and a slicker/burnisher, then apply the Tokonole and burnish again; a little goes a long way.

Search YouTube for Tokonole, there are several videos. Also if you watch videos of people making leather items you sometimes see them using it

One more thing about Tokonole. In the immortal words of Ian Atkinson "it looks like spunk"

Edited January 28, 2020 by zuludog

[Mark842]

I have to agree with Zuludog. I used Gum Trag a few times a long time ago and moved on to better products. Tokonole is far superior as well as many other products. I've gotten better slicked edges using straight water and beeswax than with Gum Trag.

[TanDan]

Nice one, thanks for the quick replies.

lol, I almost said the same but felt I had to behave myself as i'm new to the forum so went for wallpaper paste

Ah yeah, I meant to mention Tokonole. Great to hear you both think highly of it, I will get some ordered in next few days. I have been quite curious about goodsjapan.com it look like they have some great stuff available. Can you recommend any other good tools or finishes only available from japan?  That I could add to the same order.

Zuludog, what sort of grit sandpaper do you normally use for the first stage of your edge finishing?

Mark842, was that with the furniture polish in a tin or the one of those bees wax bars?

Thanks for the help!

[kirbytorres]

1 hour ago, TanDan said:

Hi all,

I'm based in the UK, most of our local gum tragacanth is only really available in a powdered or crystal form normally used in baking.  I have been playing around with mixing some up for edge burnishing.

1Tsp of crushed gum trag crystals to 200ml of luke warm water, makes a nice mix. Similar to the consistency of wallpaper paste. Time will tell how long it will keep for, I fear that it may go bad quite quickly as I don't think the gum trag crystals are sterile.

Do other people do this? or should I stop being a skinflint and pay out for the Fiebings one from the US or possibly the synthetic one from Craft in Japan.

 

Here, where I live, its more known as Tylose or CMC. Just like you, this is more locally available than Tokonole or fiebings. I haven't used it yet, but at less than half a dollar for a small 50g bag, its a no brainer for me. 

I'll post results once I use it.

[Mark842]

2 minutes ago, TanDan said:

Mark842, was that with the furniture polish in a tin or the one of those bees wax bars?

My actual favorite is to start with water and then use Neat-lac. I have my own private stock of Neat Lac that I will not sell any of because it can't be found anymore that I know of. Depending on the project and how much weather it will see I might use beeswax. I have used Barry King's Wyo Slick also and it works great. Tokonole is the only Japanese product I have used and while I think it's far superior to Gum Trag I think it is also far inferior to Wyo Slick and Neat Lac..

 

[zuludog]

TAN DAN

The grit depends to some extent on the thickness and type of leather. For thick veg tan try starting with 80 to 100 grit. for thinner leather try 100 to 120. Then go finer, say about 180 or 220 grit. Besides abrasive fabric or paper you can also use those foam sanding blocks with different grades on each surface. Don't use wet&dry paper as intended for car bodywork as they can leave dark marks behind

Goods Japan - I acquired most of the tools I needed before I knew about Goods Japan, but  got some Seiwa European stitching chisels from them which were an improvement on Tandy Craftool . See YouTube, Nigel Armitage has several reviews of pricking irons/stitching chisels

I use a Japanese style leather knife for straight cuts and skiving; see YT for what it looks like and how it's used. They are easy to sharpen and you soon get used to the offset blade; but only you can decide if you want one. I made my own, but there are several on the Goods Japan website

Their prices include shipping, but you will be charged for VAT/import duty at 20%

I know this is a bit tedious, but why don't you have a look through the Tools and Getting Started sections, or anywhere else for that matter to see what you want, then browse through Goods Japan's website and get a shopping list together; then post the list on this forum and see what comments and opinions turn up?

Edited January 29, 2020 by zuludog

[chiefjason]

I recently switched to Tokonole.  Could not be happier.  Works great at laying down any loose grain on the flesh side too.  Burnishes about as well by hand as with a powered burnisher.  

[chrisash]

11 hours ago, TanDan said:

Hi all,

I'm based in the UK, most of our local gum tragacanth is only really available in a powdered or crystal form normally used in baking.  I have been playing around with mixing some up for edge burnishing.

1Tsp of crushed gum trag crystals to 200ml of luke warm water, makes a nice mix. Similar to the consistency of wallpaper paste. Time will tell how long it will keep for, I fear that it may go bad quite quickly as I don't think the gum trag crystals are sterile.

Do other people do this? or should I stop being a skinflint and pay out for the Fiebings one from the US or possibly the synthetic one from Craft in Japan.

 

Hi

You may find these UK stores of use if your new to leatherwork

https://www.identityleathercraft.com/index.php/

https://www.artisanleather.co.uk/

http://www.leprevo.co.uk/

https://www.abbeyengland.com/

All offer first class service but Leprevo site you have to phone up as not a e-commerce site

[fredk]

6 minutes ago, chrisash said:

All offer first class service but Leprevo site you have to phone up as not a e-commerce site

What do you mean Chris?

I've been placing my orders with Le Prevo on-line for about 8 years and they answer my emails pretty speedily. Only rarely do I need to phone them or them me

[AndyNext]

I bought my Gum Trag from Artisan Leather.

It definitely has something added to it to stop it becoming a growth medium for your local yeasts and other micro-organisms! It has a distinctive smell which triggers ancient memories of school corridors after the cleaners had been in!!

So if you want to mix your own Gum Trag, I would suggest adding a drop or two of Dettol, or similar disinfectant.

And my experiences with Le Prevo online ordering have been similar to FredK. They are not as slick as newer websites, but they only ask for the money once they've checked the stock and are ready to ship. If something isn't in, they've called to discuss alternatives.

[Matt S]

I never got on with tragacanth, found it left a crackly sort of layer after a lot of rubbing (oo er Mrs). I have much better results with almost any water-based glues -- gum arabic, rabbit/hide glue, wallpaper paste, even those glue pens that look like a marker that kids use to stick bits of paper together. However the best one I've found so far is diluted ordinary white PVA glue. It burnishes quickly to a thick, solid layer; it's easy and cheap to buy; it cleans up easily; it's completely non-toxic; it doesn't go manky. I keep several jars of it knocking around, each mixed up with a different colour and a dedicated dauber in each one. Slap the stuff on, wipe off the excess then give it some beans with a bone or stick until hard and shiny. Trick is to not bite off more than you can chew -- about 4-8" at a time maximum. Then once it's all done put it aside and LET THE BLOODY THING ALONE until very nearly dry, when it gets a heavy application of wax with the motorised wheel and then polished off with a rag.

I'll see if I can dig out a photo -- edges are tricky things to capture accuractely.
 

[Tugadude]

Don't forget that Tokonole is available in colors also.  Never tried it, but the concept seems solid.

[TanDan]

Thanks everyone, its been a great help!

kirbytorres - great, it will be good to hear how you get on with it. I have been keeping mine in a dark cupboard at room temp for the last 3 days, it doesn't appear to be getting any thicker and still smells odorless. maybe try out adding a few drops of Dettol as AndyNext suggests, I think I will it sounds like a great idea, Cheers Andy.

Mark842 - Ah, good to know. I had a good look into Neat-Lac it appears to be favoured by quite a few. I did manage to find Eco-flow Neat Lac But I think this may be a modern water based remix. Is that what the Eco-flow range is, all less toxic water based versions of the classic dyes and finishes?

Barry King's Wyo Slick also looks great, he does a small pot for I think $5, I will definitely have order some. Would be a shame not to try it out at that price.

zuludog - Ah, quite a bit coarser than I expected! I think I know those foam blocks you mean, I will grab one next time i'm close to a DIY store.

I have also been getting on really well with one of those Japanese skiving knives with the rectangular offset blade, i only have quite a reasonable one but it holds a great edge. I may consider get one of the nice ones from goodsjapan, I will let you know if i do.

The "VAT/import duty at 20%" you mentioned, are goodsjapan able to add this to the order at checkout? or do UK customs / royal mail hold your parcel until you pay them separately?

Chiefjason & Tugadude - Yep, will definitely have to try out Tokonole, i also spotted the brown and black versions may be worth a try.

Thanks Chrisash - I knew about artisan and abbey but I wasn't aware of identity and leprevo, i will save them in my favorites.

Matt S - Oh, very cool! It never crossed my mind to try out PVA what did you use to add the colour? a water based leather dye maybe?

I will have to pick up a bottle of PVA tomorrow and give this a try.

Oh, do you wet the edge of the leather first before adding the PVA?

Thanks again everyone.

 

 

[zuludog]

The grade of sandpaper will depend on the type of leather you are using. Knife sheaths are typically 3 X 3mm veg tan which is quite a hefty chunk. But something from thinner and softer leather, like a wallet or notebook cover will need something a bit gentler. Try starting with 100 grit for anything and take it from there

YouTube is your friend! Search for 'leather edge finishing'; there are loads of videos. Also Search for making any items you're interested in. Then you'll see how other people do it, and if you watch carefully you'll get an idea of the grit size they use

Something you will notice is that there are many variations on getting to the end result

I can't remember much about paying for Goods Japan. I think they did the calculation and i paid it as one bill, but i can't be sure now

Here are some more suppliers -

H Webber & Son sell Osborne tools

Metropolitan Leather sell Osborne tools, besides leather

George Barnsley and Sons is a traditional Sheffield tool maker. They have a wide range of tools for leatherwork, and are reasonably priced for the quality you get

[Matt S]

10 hours ago, TanDan said:

Matt S - Oh, very cool! It never crossed my mind to try out PVA what did you use to add the colour? a water based leather dye maybe?

I tend to use saddlers powdered edge dye, since it's what I had. It makes a really strong, deep colour however I've only found one source (Abbey), and you have to buy a half-kilo at a time which would probably last a hobbyist several lifetimes. I think any water soluble dye would work.

Another reason I like PVA is that I think it makes a tougher and more water resistant finish than most conventional burnishing compounds. I'd like to try something that's specced as waterproof when dry, like Titebond 2 or 3, but in the mean time I've got a lot of PVA to get through.
 

Quote

do you wet the edge of the leather first before adding the PVA?

No, but I keep my PVA pre-diluted anyway. Quantities are very scientific: one dollop in a mayonnaise jar, topped up with water. Try it out on a scrap. If it doesn't shine quickly, needs more glue. If it dries before you get a good burnish, needs more water.

[AndyNext]

15 hours ago, TanDan said:

The "VAT/import duty at 20%" you mentioned, are goodsjapan able to add this to the order at checkout? or do UK customs / royal mail hold your parcel until you pay them separately?

Royal Mail will hold your parcel, then card you with a bill ! This is usually 20%VAT plus their admin flat fee which I think is £8 or £10.

The admin fee is a killer if it is only a low cost item.

A couple of items I've ordered from GoodsJapan have been delivered directly without any charge, but most have required VAT+admin payment. 

[fredk]

14 hours ago, Matt S said:

 I'd like to try something that's specced as waterproof when dry, like Titebond 2 or 3, but in the mean time I've got a lot of PVA to get through.

No, but I keep my PVA pre-diluted anyway. Quantities are very scientific: one dollop in a mayonnaise jar, topped up with water. Try it out on a scrap. If it doesn't shine quickly, needs more glue. If it dries before you get a good burnish, needs more water.

Dilute your PVA with something 'Astonish' floor 'polish' which is a thin acrylic varnish. It makes the PVA totally waterproof when dry. I put about an egg-cup full in about 500ml of PVA. It dilutes it only a bit but still makes it water-proof when dry.

[TanDan]

Thanks all, apologies for the tragically slow response.

I have some Tokonole on the way now from goods japan, it should hopefully arrive in about a week. I only ordered a single pot sooooo fingers crossed it may get through, I will let you know if I end up paying more than its worth in import fees:(

I also picked up a couple of beeswax bars, two natural bars and two black bars which ended up costing only £1 per bar including delivery. (this is the Ebay item number if anyone is curious - 113903303452)

I haven't managed to pickup any PVA yet, but I was planning on getting this one - https://www.wickes.co.uk/Evo-Stik-Evo-Bond-Waterproof-PVA---5L/p/137663    LOL, how long do you think 5L would last if just used for edge finishing?

Zuludog - yeah, most definitely. There is such a vast amount of personal edge finishing techniques it can get bit overwhelming. Thanks for the tools suppliers, I think I may have to order the George Barnsley and Sons clicker handle and blades, a diamond awl and possibly the saddlers half head knife, looks like nice stuff for the price.

Matt S - Thanks for the tips! i will pick up some of the above PVA when wickes get it back in stock and will have a look into a suitable colour-fast dye to have a play around with.

AndyNext - Thanks for the info, hopefully I may be able to get a single pot over without incurring all the fees, maybe...... 

fredk - Oh, interesting. I cant say I've seen that one in the shops but its not something i'm usually looking for. Is this the same stuff?

https://www.alexsuperstore.com/astonish-wood-floor-polish---1l-43600-p.asp?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI87O08cPe5wIVCbDtCh0zzwU8EAQYASABEgJwGfD_BwE

I guess, you could also add astonish to other types of water based finishes to improve the water resistance, do you know if there is an unscented one available? although tangerine and cinnamon could be nice, very festive

[zuludog]

Traditionally you would purchase an awl haft & blade as separate items, then fit them together yourself. It can be a bit tricky to get the blade in straight, or shop around and you can get them ready mounted

Then you must sharpen the blade, which can also be a fairly long & tedious job; though the last awl blade I bought was an Osborne, and that only took about half an hour

Search YouTube for 'assembling and sharpening a leather sewing awl'. There are several videos.

I must admit that I haven't used one, but if I was buying another awl I would seriously consider a haft fitted with some kind of chuck or collet, such as Osborne Palm Awl Haft #142, and Osborne Saddler's Harness Awl #42 or #43. They are available from Metropolitan Leather

A lot of the time & effort, and therefore the cost, involved in making a round or head knife is in the finishing & sharpening.

George Barnsley keep the cost down by only giving you a basic cutting edge, and you must do the final sharpening and polishing yourself. but once you get there you only need to strop, and very occasionally sharpen on a fine stone. Search YouTube for 'sharpening a head/round knife', there are several videos, including a good one by J H Leather. She does most of her work with a head knife (though not a Barnsley), so watch her other videos to see how it's used

I have a Barnsley head knife. It took a couple of hour's work with oilstones, fine wet & dry paper, and a strop, but now it has an excellent sharp edge, and holds it well 

[kirbytorres]

These are before and after pics of using cmc as burnishing agent. Still need work on sanding and leveling, but am satisfied with the results.