Creasing vs stitch grooving

[Scootch]

I've noticed a few holster makers on youtube use a creaser for their stitch line when using a sewing machine and it seems makers that hand sew use a stitch groover.  Would there be any issue with using a creaser and pricking irons for hand stitching?  

Pros and cons of creasing vs grooving?

Thanks,

Scootch

[Dwight]

I sew with a Tippmann Boss, . . . using 346 thread for 99% of what I do.

I stitch groove just about all of it, . . . it puts my stitches even with or below the edge of the finished leather, . . . making it much harder to abrade my stitches.

But other folks do other things for other reasons.

Those are mine.

May God bless,

Dwight

[sideforce]

When using linen thread I cut a stitch grove.  Back in the day, I used a marking wheel and awl for the hand stitches down the stitch grove. Today, with the high tensile, tough thread, like Rita Tiger Thread,  I'm not cutting a stitch grove, I mark a stitch line with my dividers and predominately use my diamond chisels to cut the stitch holes.  Depending on the project, the old awl still has it's moments.  No reason you couldn't cut a stitch grove to sink your stitches below the leather surface, and then use the diamond chisels to cut the stitching holes.

[Hildebrand]

I have done it both ways and I Ike Dwight’s way. It’s a nice channel to lay the thread in.

Tidd

[Arturomex]

2 hours ago, Scootch said:

  Would there be any issue with using a creaser and pricking irons for hand stitching?  

Pros and cons of creasing vs grooving?

 

When  you say "pricking irons" are you talking about marking your lines and then using an awl or are you going to use something that will punch your holes all the way through?

There wouldn't be any issues either way but Dwight makes a good case for what he does and why he does it.

Of course, leather people being contrarian, there is another school of thought that holds that keeping the integrity of the grain maintains more strength in the leather.

How I approach things is pretty much determined by what the project is. If I'm sewing a lighter weight veg tan I try for the best of both worlds. I usually hand stitch with 0.6~ 0.8mm thread and I lay a deep, heavy crease in on my stitch lines when the leather is coming back to color before tooling. The stitches usually sit down in the crease very nicely without actually cutting through the grain. Thicker veg tan and 1.0mm + thread usually gets a stitching groove for the reasons Dwight listed.

Regards,

Arturo

 

[dikman]

As Arturomex said, some maintain that cutting a groove in the surface of the leather weakens it, which it probably does, but if it's thick leather then it's not likely to be much of an issue. I have yet to see anyone providing proof that doing this has lead to premature failure of the product. On the other hand as Dwight said it provides protection for the stitches and in my opinion looks neat and tidy.

Bottom line is to do what you like and what works for you. You're not breaking any rules.

[Treed]

Its another one of those things that I look back on history for answers. In doing a lot of repairs on military equipment from late 1800's to 1940's. All of the pieces are stitched with stitching groves, most are made of leather at 6 to 7 oz. Most of the equipment is cavalry saddles, and other tack. The stitching was done with linen thread, used hard and survived. In fact most of the stitches are welded into the leather and cause great difficulty when you go to replace them. It may be an added step in the sewing process but it worked so i add it to my process.

Bobby

[toxo]

9 minutes ago, Treed said:

 In doing a lot of repairs on military equipment from late 1800's to 1940's. All of the pieces are stitched with stitching groves, most are made of leather at 6 to 7 oz. Most of the equipment is cavalry saddles, and other tack. The stitching was done with linen thread, used hard and survived. In fact most of the stitches are welded into the leather and cause great difficulty when you go to replace them. It may be an added step in the sewing process but it worked so i add it to my process.

Bobby

I'm by no means a veteran in this business but my practical head says - The strongest part of the leather is usually the top coat. A stitching groove takes that away. Maybe the repairs you're doing wouldn't have needed doing if a stitch groove hadn't been used. - Then again you could argue that the thread would have been exposed to abrasion over that time. To me this is a moot point as there are plenty of machines that will pull a thread below the surface without actually cutting through the top layer. If hand stitching I daresay the same could be achieved if pulled hrd enough. And yet again, are we talking best practice or are we looking from a purely utilitarian viewpoint? How long do we want it to last with consideration for the job it has to do? As with many leather processes I think it's just down to personal preference and the way we like to work.

[Scootch]

Thanks for the great replies.

On 5/29/2020 at 10:57 PM, Arturomex said:

When  you say "pricking irons" are you talking about marking your lines and then using an awl or are you going to use something that will punch your holes all the way through?

There wouldn't be any issues either way but Dwight makes a good case for what he does and why he does it.

Of course, leather people being contrarian, there is another school of thought that holds that keeping the integrity of the grain maintains more strength in the leather.

How I approach things is pretty much determined by what the project is. If I'm sewing a lighter weight veg tan I try for the best of both worlds. I usually hand stitch with 0.6~ 0.8mm thread and I lay a deep, heavy crease in on my stitch lines when the leather is coming back to color before tooling. The stitches usually sit down in the crease very nicely without actually cutting through the grain. Thicker veg tan and 1.0mm + thread usually gets a stitching groove for the reasons Dwight listed.

Regards,

Arturo

 

I'm referring pricking irons or stitching chisels, crimson hides 3.0 or craft sha 5mm.  Some times I finish with the awl if its thick but thinner material ill tap the irons fully through.  The main reason I asked is because I've messed up a few projects with stitch groovers.  I started off with a Tandy, then tried a Barry King and I've finally settled on the Horseshoe groover.  It's been the easiest to use.   On some projects I use a push beader and push beveler and am able to control them much better.  The beader and groover go deep enough to get the threads fairly flush.  So after seeing folks use a creaser I thought it might be worth giving it a shot.

Thanks, 

Scootch