How long to make a belt vs pricing

[Scootch]

This is a belt I made for my son.  The pattern takes up 32 inches. There are a total of 378 a impressions.  The total stamping time time was 90 minutes not including layout and cutting the boarder.  Since I'm pretty new at this I'd like to know how long it would take you all to do the same amount of work.  To date I've made 4 basket stamp, this one geo and one carved/tooled belt.  I've turned folks down because I want to get my skills up and determine appropriate pricing as well as being able to set reasonalbe goals for the amount of time it takes me to completely make a belt.  I was thinking about determining how many stamps per inch would be on a belt with my stock of stamps and laying out a "time to stamp" to help determine pricing.

 

Thanks,

Scootch

 

[fredk]

Cost of materials x 2 plus tool time plus hourly rate .

The more skilled = greater hourly rate

Tool time = a basic rate for tools you use, for eventual replacement

[Spyros]

Just my 2c.

Same rule applies whether you're selling belts or mobile phones or potato chips: always, always, get as much as you can get, which is the market price.   You have zero reasons to price your product less than the competition, and the customer has zero reasons to pay more than the competition because you calculated that your costs are high.  Your costs are your problem and not the customer's.

Try to figure out what is the customer's alternative options for an (excellent by the way) belt like this, and price it about there.   That's my advice for building a sustainable and profitable business.

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Spyros

[noobleather]

What a great looking belt. what stamps did you use?

 I reckon belt like that is is worth hundreds.

 

[JLSleather]

That's a very nice lookin' belt

I always recommend PAY NO ATTENTION to the "material times .. sumthin... plus gas mileage .... overhead .. lease fee.. per hour..." people.  There is no "formula".    I see very nice looking belts for sale at $400, and I also see very nice looking belts for sale at $55.  Both good leather, both well done ... so WHAT is the difference?  TIP:  If you can't TELL the difference, then why would you PAY MORE?@!

I also pay no attention to names.  Like... "this belt was made by Elvis" might mean something, because some dummy might well pay more for it for that reason.  But that would only be true in extreme cases, and nobody on this site would be such a case.

STILL, your belt is overall good looking, clearly involved some planning in the making, and except for the very tip, the stitching is quite good (that's another day).  I'm not big on "well it's hand stamped".  Again, here's the thing.. one guy buys stamps, lays out the belt, meticulously tries to line up every impression so their all consistent spacing and depth.  Does a nice job.  Other guy buys an embossing roll, runs the SAME good leather through the machine in about 30 seconds, and EVERY IMPRESSION is the same consistent spacing and depth.  So, if the belts are made with the SAME LEATHER and LOOK THE SAME, then I would not personally pay more because some guy killed a whole day stamping it.  The POINT of "handmade" is that it should be BETTER than the machine made... more attention to detail.  If it's not BETTER, then "handmade" was pointless.

ALL THAT SAID... I like that belt, and would not hesitate to pay $100 for one like that (assuming the quality is as good as it looks from here).  But not beyond that.  If a guy wants MORE money, then he/she almost needs to do something NOT done by "everybody" else.  You know, if what you do is something ANYBODY can do, don't be surprised when anybody DOES.

I don't price "per inch" actually, nor "per time period", though I do get more for a 44" belt than for a 34" belt.  The amount of leather isn't even worth calculating, but the time involved can be significant when TOOLED.  So, I recommend a "base" price in mind... and then add a bit or subtract a bit per case.  Basket stamp is THREE stamps most of the time - border, basket, scallop.  Say it takes me 2 hours to cut a strap, set up, get the tools out, 'case' the strap, trim the tip, stamp, set to the side .... NOW, if I put all that stuff away, it will take roughly that same period on teh next one.  But if I cut FIVE straps while I got the hide and the cutter out, and then trip all the tips, then do all the stamping (set one to the side, stamp the next,  ...) and then leave them long and undyed... I might get them down to an hour each.  So, if I take TWO hours, or I take ONE hour, is one belt "worth more" than the other, with leather from the same hide, with the same tools, by the same guy?    Thus, formulas mean nothing.

But the wrench in the works is that guy making that SAME belt with a machine.... SAME LEATHER, SAME SHAPE, SAME QUALITY, but done in 27 MINUTES.  Worth less, more, the same?

19 hours ago, Scootch said:

 I've turned folks down because I want to get my skills up and determine appropriate pricing

I don't recommend this.  Your  belt looks very nice and appears to be quite solid.  SOME folks really do put out CRAP, and many of them have the NERVE to sell it anyway.  SO THIS BELT absolutely should be sold, putting money in your pocket.  Just because you're getting paid doesn't mean you cant STILL IMPROVE as you go ...

[RemingtonSteel]

I agree with JLSleather on much of what he said, especially the part about your skills.  For the number of belts that you have made, your skill level is well above most leatherworkers that have that many or more belts under their belt (pun intended.)  To me geometric patterns are the most difficult patterns to stamp.  One misaligned stamp can really detract from the overall project for people like me that have an eye for detail. This particular geometric for me is always a challenge.  On yours I can see some clipping at the top of the half circles due to the slightest misalignment of the stamp, which is the main reason it is so challenging. However, your stamps have good even depth, and are very crisp, the belt was cased properly as you have nice burnishing in the stamps, so all in all, I would say you pretty much nailed it!  I would buy that belt and wear it with pride.  Stop being so critical of yourself and start selling those belts.  

2 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Again, here's the thing.. one guy buys stamps, lays out the belt, meticulously tries to line up every impression so their all consistent spacing and depth.  Does a nice job.  Other guy buys an embossing roll, runs the SAME good leather through the machine in about 30 seconds, and EVERY IMPRESSION is the same consistent spacing and depth.  So, if the belts are made with the SAME LEATHER and LOOK THE SAME, then I would not personally pay more because some guy killed a whole day stamping it. 

With all do respect to JLSleather (and I do respect him and his work), this is the part I don't agree with.  IMHO, the guy that uses an embossing machine is a manufacturer, where as the guy who stamps it by hand is a craftsman.  Many people, including me, are willing to pay more for an item to support independent craftsman than they would a manufacturer. Just like I would pay a little more for a product made in the USA over one of the exact same quality made in a foreign country, or pay a little bit more to support a local brick and mortar business vs buying from Amazon, when theses things are possible.

The only other advise I can give regarding pricing that others have yet to make is this. If you get to the point where you are taking in more orders than you have the time to make (within a reasonable timeframe), it is time to increase you prices (economics 101 - law of supply and demand!).

Beautiful belt, you have got me wanting to make one with this pattern again. I have to ask though, who is the stamp manufacturer and what is the number of the geometric box stamp.  That particular one creates a very nice cross hatched look in background and I have not seen it before?

Edited May 16, 2021 by RemingtonSteel

[TomMeyers]

I agree with spyros .  Get the most you can and price at the market price of similar products.  So know your competition.  If that price is too low for you then get out of that market.  Sk there is a use for costs but it is not for setting price.

Cost plus pricing is erroneous; market price is reality. (MBA '83)

 

Your work is very! Nice. I would have punched the holes into the pattern rather than by measure.

[Scootch]

4 hours ago, JLSleather said:

That's a very nice lookin' belt

STILL, your belt is overall good looking, clearly involved some planning in the making, and except for the very tip, the stitching is quite good (that's another day). 

Thanks for the feed back.  I don't think I've nailed the stitching on the tip since I've been using the Boss. I think you need thee hands to operate that stitcher.

8 hours ago, noobleather said:

what stamps did you use?

2 hours ago, RemingtonSteel said:

Beautiful belt, you have got me wanting to make one with this pattern again. I have to ask though, who is the stamp manufacturer and what is the number of the geometric box stamp.  That particular one creates a very nice cross hatched look in background and I have not seen it before?

The arch is a Barry King size 4, the flower center and box are from Wayne Jueschke.  It was sheer luck the flower center was the correct size.  The pattern didn't develop for me until after a few hours of tinkering with the stamps. They are spendy but he has many stamps that are not duplicated elsewhere.  He's was recommended to me by a saddle maker.  Bruce Johnson, on this site, also carries his tools and will allow you the option to pay with a debit card as opposed to mailing a money order.

49 minutes ago, TomMeyers said:

Your work is very! Nice. I would have punched the holes into the pattern rather than by measure.

I agree that would have been a extra nice touch.  I spaced these at 7/8 because its a kids belt and used the second hole instead of the center hole for measurements to give him a few more years of use...

Thanks for the comments. This was the first time doing a geo pattern.  There isn't much room for error with the box stamp.  It seems leather burnishes its best when the surface of the leather has dried to the point it's stiff but it causes my stamp to squirt a little bit, sometimes, upon striking with a maul.  I'm not sure what to do about it unless I sacrifice a little burnish and dampen the leather again.  I was wondering what tools might be used to clean up the oddities after completing a geo pattern?  I tried a modeling tool in a few spots before antiquing but I wasn't satisfied with how it looked. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Scootch

[benlilly1]

Your work is beautiful! Well worth what ever you charge!

[hashtagartz]

I love the look of this belt. Get as much as you can.

[bruce johnson]

Here's my take and I guess the devils advocate in this thread. This is a general post of my experience and philosphy and not intended to be pointed just at your thread here. We can bet every successful business big or small knows their cost of materials, time for each step, and overhead. They don't build a car and then say, "this one is worth , umm, oh maybe $25,000?". 

     Before the tool deal  I started as a leather hobbyist , moved to a small "fun" business and eventually got into a "do or die - have to make money" business situation  at one time for some medical debt. I got into formulas late and I'll throw it out that it was way too late. They don't have to be complicated but with regard to steps, get an idea of your time involved in getting out the leather, cutting, and putting away. Time spent stamping and a clock is your friend here - you will get faster and smoother but time yourself for stamping a project. Bigger stamps are faster than smaller stamps. I knew how many sq ft/hr I could do with each, how long a floral corner took, and that all factored in. Time spent sewing - for me on the Boss - 10"/minute, on the Adler or Ferdco - 24"/min. Time spent slicking and finishing. Stuff like that. Once you get some rates it makes estimating future projects a lot closer. Figure in incidentals and figure in future tool purchases. Add up time and costs with a fudge factor and then profit. Profit is not a dirty word. 

     The real kicker now is your rate, what do you charge? Some people are happy working for beer money and some people are paying a second mortgage, nice vacation with the family, or making a living. You have to decide where you need to be.  Is it worth $10/hour to sit in your shop all weekend and not spend family time? Do you need to make $500/weekend to help pay down the second?  Do you want more Jueschke stamps, a powered sewing machine, or something else eventually for the business/hobby. Unlike fishing or golf, this pastime can pay off if you let it. I never sold the first trout to pay for the fishing boat. I have sold rope cans to keep from bankruptcy though. Once you figure a shop rate and do the math - then you can decide your market. But...you have to be honest with your skill level and speed early on. Pete Gorrell told me this one time and I'm going to paraphrase it to get it right. "Don't sell a $5000 saddle for $3000, and don't sell a $3000 saddle for $5000. Give the customer what they paid for". 

   Are you outpricing everyone locally? Not a problem if you aren't looking locally. It is a problem for people setting up at street fairs or word of mouth at work,. If you are eventually selling through the internet, doesn't matter. Are you planning to sell 100 or 10? all things to consider. I sold several hundred rope cans and probably 5 of them in a three county radius. I was surrounded by good saddlemakers who made $5000 tooled saddles. I built $3200 roughouts and $3500 partial basket stampeds because they didn't price them to "want to"  build them. Saddles for me were all local market. There's room for different price points and different target markets. 

[Outfitr]

Great looking belt and I'm sure the quality matches. I see it is stitched..is it lined? Charge plenty, that's the only advise I can give you. There's so much junk out there, let the people who can't or don't want to discern the difference buy 5 junkie belts instead of one good one. JLS is sooo right about "hand made" vs a machine. I mean who cares if it results in the same quality. With that said I make  "100% Hand Made"  stuff and I charge for it. I am fortunate because leatherwork for me is kind of a full time ....hobby. If it sells fine. All my friends and family have a lot of really nice stuff. I try to make hand stitching a real important artistic/visual part of most of my projects so I charge a lot more for them too. And that does depend on the project. A belt actually is hard to justify hand stitching. I make Case trapper knife sheaths and they are all different from floral carved and painted to basket etc.  You can buy a pretty darn nice one online for $30. I charge WAY WAY more. Are mine that much better?? Well they'll last a lifetime and they look better. They also sell so maybe.

[Spyros]

By the way Scootch, don't be put off by the discussion and the apparent lack of clarity and the variety of opinions on pricing, it's perfectly normal.

I do this professionally (pricing of products and services for a multinational organisation) and I can assure you it's exactly the same discussions over there as it is here.   There are always people who say we should price things cost + margin and there are always others who say we should ignore costs and price them to match the market.  Both opinions have their merits.  It's good to listen to both but ultimately you will have to make your own decisions based on your particular business strategy, product and market.  And keep in mind pricing is not an exact science, there's a bit of an art and a gut feel to it.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Spyros

[Klara]

My two cents after 10 years of selling handmade wool items (from handspun yarn): The money you can get depends on the market. The money you should get depends on your cost, including a hourly rate. If the difference between both is too big (not in your favour) then you might as well not bother. Because it is no fun to discover after years of practice, when you turn out a really well-made product (not just my opinion), that you are still working for 1 or 2 Euro an hour because the market or the product is all wrong.

A leatherworking colleague of mine started out making, amongst others, hand-tooled hair barettes (the piece of leather with a stick through). He stopped because people just were not willing to pay the time it took him to make them. Now he is making extremely simple belts - no tooling at all, but good quality leather and buckles - and they sell like hot cakes.

[chrisash]

To make the big bucks on anything, it's generally agreed that you need to spend heavily in Marketing to your intended sector, to get people needing to buy your product, and then price is only a minor point

This is what the brands attempt to do, from the obvious ones like Hermes, LV and Swiss army knives, some brands are new like say "Superdry" and others like fashion designers who come up with this years fashion and consequently get publicity and talked about

If you don't market your brand, you will never get the big bucks, as only very few people know of you and few talk about you to others 

Lastly dont make one item make three or more at the same time and reduce all the setting up time

[Scootch]

18 hours ago, Spyros said:

By the way Scootch, don't be put off by the discussion and the apparent lack of clarity and the variety of opinions on pricing, it's perfectly normal.

I do this professionally (pricing of products and services for a multinational organisation) and I can assure you it's exactly the same discussions over there as it is here.   There are always people who say we should price things cost + margin and there are always others who say we should ignore costs and price them to match the market.  Both opinions have their merits.  It's good to listen to both but ultimately you will have to make your own decisions based on your particular business strategy, product and market.  And keep in mind pricing is not an exact science, there's a bit of an art and a gut feel to it.

Not put off in the least.  I'm please with the dialog!  Good stuff.

Scootch