Treesner Report post Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) Hey guys i'v been wanting to get a cylinder arm machine for years but always end up lost on what to get and a bit discouraged by the super high prices. Can you recommend a cylinder arm machine for occasional use; sewing patches on hats, patching pants, modifying/prototyping small cordura bags, leather 4-6mm. It would be nice to have a strap on table attachment but I could probably make something DIY. currently using a sail rite. I'm in Northern California Sacramento area and cant find anything on craigslist used other than a Nakajima 380B for $950 3 hours away and a CONSEW 227R-2 for 1,350 9 hours away I'd like to be in the 1,000-2,000 range but let me know what you think I should get cobra 26 seems like it could be a good option Cobra 26 $2500 + 300 shipping: 2,740 -with platform and drop down guide https://www.aldenleathersupply.com/collections/machines/products/cobra-class-26?variant=31699241336878 Cobra 26 shipped 2600 With platform and guide (site seems sketch though) https://industrialsewingmachineman.com/machines/mach.asp?dir=sewmach&brand=Cobra&Model=Class+26&ProductType=Industrial+Straight+Stitch+Machines cobra 26 EPS shipped: 3,457.55 with platform and edge guide https://leathermachineco.com/product/cobra-class-26-with-eps/ Edited October 22, 2021 by Treesner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted October 22, 2021 57 minutes ago, Treesner said: I'm in Northern California Sacramento area Since you are planning on spending between $1000 to $3500 why not visit a couple of industrial sewing machine dealers and test drive a couple of machines with a sample of your stuff. My suggestion would be for either a new or used Juki LS-1341 or used Juki LS-341. Another option that maybe worth while investigating are the used Singer 29K's and newer 29K clones. They would work for sewing hat patches on, patching pants and may do for modifying/prototyping bags. kgg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nylonRigging Report post Posted October 22, 2021 craiglist is going to be a hit and miss for finding good clean cylinder bed in reasonable driving distance . If you wanting brand name, and will hold a better resale value over time . the Juki 1341 that ( kgg ) mentioned is ...Great . . You are living in NorCal. . if you do end-up buying new clone import . 'for Me' .. I would just contact Artisan Sew in Bay area Cal. , call and ask 'what is in stock' . You can get into walk compound feed, medium duty cylinder setup for 1800-$ to 2300 . along with consew/juki/singer... I run a couple of Artisan setups on cylinder and post machines , they run solid, and setup with a quality servo drive . Have good customer service . Shipping for me from bay area up to Portland trucking hub for me to pick it up, was about 190-$ last time I brought one up here . So you shipping closer in-state would probably far less-$ . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treesner Report post Posted October 25, 2021 (edited) On 10/22/2021 at 3:58 PM, nylonRigging said: craiglist is going to be a hit and miss for finding good clean cylinder bed in reasonable driving distance . If you wanting brand name, and will hold a better resale value over time . the Juki 1341 that ( kgg ) mentioned is ...Great . . You are living in NorCal. . if you do end-up buying new clone import . 'for Me' .. I would just contact Artisan Sew in Bay area Cal. , call and ask 'what is in stock' . You can get into walk compound feed, medium duty cylinder setup for 1800-$ to 2300 . along with consew/juki/singer... I run a couple of Artisan setups on cylinder and post machines , they run solid, and setup with a quality servo drive . Have good customer service . Shipping for me from bay area up to Portland trucking hub for me to pick it up, was about 190-$ last time I brought one up here . So you shipping closer in-state would probably far less-$ . . thanks I think I've been there once before when I lived in the Bay Area what would be the comparable model to the 1341 the 246VA or the 2618-1B https://www.artisansew.com/cylinderarmandpostbedmachine.html they also have a new 335 B light weight / medium mahcine to 3/8” leather which would fit my needs now but i think I'd want the option to go bigger than 3/8 in future. they dont show the price just have it on the news page https://www.artisansew.com/news.html Edited October 25, 2021 by Treesner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted October 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Treesner said: what would be the comparable model to the 1341 the 246VA or the 2618-1B The Juki LS-1341 takes a #24 technically good for V207 but the machine is rated V138 top thread and bobbin thread running at 2000 spm. I figure this is to allow you to sew V138 even in tough leather. The 246VA max needle size is #23 needle which will take V138 but in tough or thick stuff may not create a large enough hole to properly form a stitch or cause skipped stitches. The website when you click on the specs it shows 246VA but the nameplate on the machine in the photo is a 335, maybe the 246VA is being replaced by the 335. I couldn't find a max speed probably 1800 spm like the 2618-1B but would need to be checked with them. I think this machine is more geared towards edge binding like the PFAFF 335 rather then a Juki LS-1341. The 2618-1B can take a #24 needle but max speed is 1800 spm. I think a much closer machine to the Juki LS-1341. 1 hour ago, Treesner said: but i think I'd want the option to go bigger than 3/8 in future. To sew constantly above the 3/8" mark you need to move into the 441 class of machines. The Juki TSC-441 is just way to expensive for most people so the clone 441 class machines are a much more reasonably priced option however they do not lend to sewing thin stuff very well unless they are dumbed down and typically use system 794 needles. Remember No one machine is going to cover all your needs/wants. kgg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treesner Report post Posted October 25, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, kgg said: The Juki LS-1341 takes a #24 technically good for V207 but the machine is rated V138 top thread and bobbin thread running at 2000 spm. I figure this is to allow you to sew V138 even in tough leather. The 246VA max needle size is #23 needle which will take V138 but in tough or thick stuff may not create a large enough hole to properly form a stitch or cause skipped stitches. The website when you click on the specs it shows 246VA but the nameplate on the machine in the photo is a 335, maybe the 246VA is being replaced by the 335. I couldn't find a max speed probably 1800 spm like the 2618-1B but would need to be checked with them. I think this machine is more geared towards edge binding like the PFAFF 335 rather then a Juki LS-1341. The 2618-1B can take a #24 needle but max speed is 1800 spm. I think a much closer machine to the Juki LS-1341. To sew constantly above the 3/8" mark you need to move into the 441 class of machines. The Juki TSC-441 is just way to expensive for most people so the clone 441 class machines are a much more reasonably priced option however they do not lend to sewing thin stuff very well unless they are dumbed down and typically use system 794 needles. Remember No one machine is going to cover all your needs/wants. kgg thanks for the info heres what artisan dealer told me about the 2 machines. I didnt ask about the 335 but saw some info in another thread its even lighter duty/cheaper and they have an option where its portable (mounted to a piece of wood not a table, but it is 86 pounds so semi portable..) " The Artisan 2618-1B is most compatible with the other two machines you have mentioned in your email. The Artisan 246VA is a little different. It has a 10" arm from the base to the needle and 1.75" diameter at the rotating hook area. It has a 'M' size rotating hook and bobbin system. Compound walking foot, sews up to 7/16" and maximum thread size is 138 (tex-135). The Artisan 2618-1B: It has a 10" arm from the base to the needle and the diameter of the cylinder arm is around 3". It has a drop-in 'U' size bobbin and vertical rotating hook system. Compound walking foot, sews up to 7/16" and maximum thread size is 207 (tex-210). " so probably between the two 2618 is closer to what would be good for me how does the 441 handle 3/16 (4mm)? Edited October 25, 2021 by Treesner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted October 26, 2021 31 minutes ago, Treesner said: how does the 441 handle 3/16 (4mm)? It wouldn't be my first choice as the 441 class shine above the 3/8" to 3/4" or so and their sweet spot would probably be the 1/2" + mark with V346 or larger thread. I have my machines pretty well dialed in for a certain sewing range / function. It will come down to whether the item can be done better / faster / easier on a flatbed or cylinder bed. For thin flat items I would probably try a sample first using my Juki DU-1181n, if it struggles I would move to the a Juki DNU 1541S then the Juki LS-1341 clone with or without a flatbed attachment. Thin stuff I the Juki DU -1181n excels and depending on the material can handle V138 but it is only rated for V92 and is just a walking foot. My Juki DU-1181N is my first choice for sewing 21 oz (#6) cotton canvas which measures approximately 1mm thick and has sewn 6 layers many times. The Juki DNU-1541S hates thin stuff (~4mm or so) and will tear up fabric unless dumbed down. If the item was a patch my choice would be the old Singer 29k-71 which can take a #24 needle but has a tiny bobbin. All those machines use 135 x 17 or 16 needles which is convenient. I hope that helps, kgg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockyAussie Report post Posted October 26, 2021 Awhile ago I would have fully agreed with @kgg but something we came up with recently for these machines really does change this a LOT. Here is a video I did on it While you are there check out the videos I have done on the CB6900 which is a really great machine to start off with in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted October 26, 2021 40 minutes ago, RockyAussie said: Awhile ago I would have fully agreed with @kgg but something we came up with recently for these machines really does change this a LOT. That my friend is definitely a game changer. Excellent work. kgg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MtlBiker Report post Posted October 26, 2021 1 hour ago, RockyAussie said: Awhile ago I would have fully agreed with @kgg but something we came up with recently for these machines really does change this a LOT. Here is a video I did on it While you are there check out the videos I have done on the CB6900 which is a really great machine to start off with in my opinion. Rocky, please forgive a question from a relative newbie... What exactly are you showing that you're calling a "game changer"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treesner Report post Posted October 26, 2021 10 hours ago, RockyAussie said: Awhile ago I would have fully agreed with @kgg but something we came up with recently for these machines really does change this a LOT. Here is a video I did on it While you are there check out the videos I have done on the CB6900 which is a really great machine to start off with in my opinion. I'm not seeing the price on the cb6900 https://www.cowboysew.com/6900-best-sewing-machine-for-making-leather-bags.htm you think this machine is best for all around thin and thick work? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted October 26, 2021 I think Cowboy renamed it in the US as the CB 341 ( https://www.tolindsewmach.com/cb341.html ) clone of the Juki LS-341 for $2395 US. The clone model numbering system can get confusing at times. kgg 31 minutes ago, Treesner said: I'm not seeing the price on the cb6900 I think Cowboy renamed it in the US as the CB 341 ( https://www.tolindsewmach.com/cb341.html ) clone of the Juki LS-341 for $2395 US. The clone model numbering system can get confusing at times. kgg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dikman Report post Posted October 26, 2021 Brian, that is very impressive! What size thread is that? You got more details - price, availability etc? I don't really need one but that's never stopped me before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treesner Report post Posted October 26, 2021 (edited) recommendation and pricing from artisan " I'll be sewing patches on hats, patching pants, modifying/prototyping small cordura bags/webbing, most commonly sewing two pieces pre finished veg tanned leather thats about 3/16" total occasionally sewing thicker raw (harder) veg tanned leather using thread size 69 due to my limitation but would like to go thicker I'll want to get the drops down guide and platform with the cylinder machine it to use it as an all around machine until I get a second flat bed machine that's a little better for small cordura/webbing/velcro/zipper bags " The Artisan 2618-1B is best suited for the range of your sewing needs. The light medium to medium heavy material or leather. i.e. cordura, webbing. - No light weight material. i.e. chiffon, silks, lace, dress shirt linen. - Patching pants, modifying and prototyping. Thread range - Bonded nylon or polyester - size 33 (tex-35) up to 207 (tex-210) Total layers and thickness (3/16") is well under the 7/16" maximum thickness. The only thing we have questions on is the raw harder leather (veg tanned). If the veg tanned leather is very dense and thick (7-10 oz.), the machine might struggle with 2-3 layers of it, not producing good quality stitches or worst case, thread bunching. Leather types like heavy saddle bags, skirting, harness reins not recommended. Thread tension and or mechanical adjustment will be needed to produce good quality stitches for these types of leathers or goods. Artisan 2618-1B with 'U' table setup complete @ $2305.00 Flip down/up roller edge guide @ $90.00 Work platform 2618 @ $100.00 Shipping to your residential address with delivery liftgate service @ $295.00 Colfax, California sales tax is 7.25% $2495.00 Subtotal $295.00 Freight $180.89 Sales Tax $2970.89 Total === However I found there store is only about 2.5 hours from me so I could probably get around the freight and make a trip leaving me at $2675 for machine, platform, guide So it's right about the same as a shipped cobra 26: Cobra 26 shipped $2600 With platform and guide https://industrialsewingmachineman.com/machines/mach.asp?dir=sewmach&brand=Cobra&Model=Class+26&ProductType=Industrial+Straight+Stitch+Machines Cobra 26 $2500 + 300 shipping: 2,740 -with platform and drop down guide https://www.aldenleathersupply.com/collections/machines/products/cobra-class-26?variant=31699241336878 alternatively I could maybe import a used 1341 for around 2400-3,000 and do a motor swap to 110v (not sure cost on that) Cowboy CB341 $3025 https://www.tolindsewmach.com/cb341.html 2395.00+ 95 removable flat bed, adjustable pedestal $150, drop down guide, probably 90, shipping probably 295 Thoughts on what to go with ? since artisan is within 3 hours I imagine that might be the best bet for future fixing? Edited October 26, 2021 by Treesner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockyAussie Report post Posted October 26, 2021 1 hour ago, kgg said: I think Cowboy renamed it in the US as the CB 341 ( https://www.tolindsewmach.com/cb341.html ) clone of the Juki LS-341 for $2395 US. The clone model numbering system can get confusing at times. kgg I think Cowboy renamed it in the US as the CB 341 ( https://www.tolindsewmach.com/cb341.html ) clone of the Juki LS-341 for $2395 US. The clone model numbering system can get confusing at times. kgg Similar looking but The CB 341 does not have the same capacities as the CB6900 -When I get a bit of work done here I will come back with some more info but here is a link to study for now - https://www.cowboysew.com/heavy-duty-cylinder-bed-sewing-machine.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockyAussie Report post Posted October 26, 2021 10 hours ago, MtlBiker said: Rocky, please forgive a question from a relative newbie... What exactly are you showing that you're calling a "game changer"? I will try and get back to this tonight as it does give a whole lot of advantages to a machine that was only good on heavy gage work mostly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted October 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Treesner said: Patching pants, modifying and prototyping. This comment you receive from Artisan is confusing to me. Trying to sew a patch on a pants leg particularly around the knee area using a cylinder bed is going to be a real chore. I think, a better choice of machine for sewing patches whether on pants or hats, which they didn't directly address, would be a patcher like a Singer 29K or a similar clone. 1 hour ago, Treesner said: I'll be sewing patches on hats, patching pants, modifying/prototyping small cordura bags/webbing, most commonly sewing two pieces pre finished veg tanned leather thats about 3/16" total occasionally sewing thicker raw (harder) veg tanned leather using thread size 69 due to my limitation but would like to go thicker I think your primary of requirements of hat patches and patching pants is more suited to a patcher machine where you can change the direction of the stitch simply by turning the direction of the the pressor foot. So doing a stitch around a patch is much simpler to do. You didn't mention which Sailrite machine you have. Investing in a cylinder machine may not be the overall best / correct machine for your stuff. I still would recommend visiting a dealer with samples of what you want to sew and try a patcher, a cylinder bed and a flatbed machine to see what works best for the majority of your stuff. As the investment is substantial, you and your pocket book would really hate it if you got the wrong machine for your needs. 51 minutes ago, RockyAussie said: Similar looking but The CB 341 does not have the same capacities as the CB6900 I took the information from a previous reply from Cowboy Bob in the topic called "Opinions on Cowboy CB6900" I probably misinterpreted his comment " Uwe,to confuse you more,we call it 1341 here in the US ....". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arturomex Report post Posted October 27, 2021 The Cowboy 6900 and Techsew 4800 are clones of the Juki LS1342. I have the Techsew and I'm very happy with it. Brian knows a lot more about these machines than I do and I'm sure he can tell you much more. Regards, Arturo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spyros Report post Posted October 27, 2021 It freaks me out when I see people sewing perfect straight lines on a machine without any sort of guide I know you get better with practice, and Brian has probably stitched a few thousand miles in his lifetime :D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Handstitched Report post Posted October 27, 2021 4 hours ago, Spyros said: It freaks me out when I see people sewing perfect straight lines on a machine without any sort of guide Had my Juki clone since 2005, I bought an adjustable guide to go with it, but in the whole time I've had it, never used it . I just use the edge of the foot as a guide.....and my eyes HS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MtlBiker Report post Posted October 27, 2021 13 hours ago, RockyAussie said: I will try and get back to this tonight as it does give a whole lot of advantages to a machine that was only good on heavy gage work mostly. Well, I look forward to your clarification. I'm just not sure what "IT" is. What have you done/changed to make it a game changer? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted October 27, 2021 2 hours ago, MtlBiker said: Well, I look forward to your clarification. I'm just not sure what "IT" is. What have you done/changed to make it a game changer? The item that he refers to as a game changer is a narrow throat plate and feed dog. Using these will make a 441 or clone more friendly towards thin work. Currently, the best way to sew soft or thin material on a cb4500 (etc) machine is to dumb down the machine. Sometimes that includes changing to the slotted throat plate and removing the feed dog. I have done this many times and it takes about 20 minutes altogether. With the newly developed narrow feed set you can sew both thick and thin materials on the one machine. I have a narrow plate and feed dog set in transit and will report on my findings after putting them through the paces. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MtlBiker Report post Posted October 27, 2021 39 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said: The item that he refers to as a game changer is a narrow throat plate and feed dog. Using these will make a 441 or clone more friendly towards thin work. Currently, the best way to sew soft or thin material on a cb4500 (etc) machine is to dumb down the machine. Sometimes that includes changing to the slotted throat plate and removing the feed dog. I have done this many times and it takes about 20 minutes altogether. With the newly developed narrow feed set you can sew both thick and thin materials on the one machine. I have a narrow plate and feed dog set in transit and will report on my findings after putting them through the paces. Thank you! I'd watched the video twice and still didn't understand what the game changing "it" was. Maybe I'm the only newbie here who didn't catch on right away, but it would have been helpful if he (or someone) had first outlined the problem/issue and then explained the solution. This newbie thanks you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treesner Report post Posted October 27, 2021 18 hours ago, kgg said: This comment you receive from Artisan is confusing to me. Trying to sew a patch on a pants leg particularly around the knee area using a cylinder bed is going to be a real chore. I think, a better choice of machine for sewing patches whether on pants or hats, which they didn't directly address, would be a patcher like a Singer 29K or a similar clone. I think your primary of requirements of hat patches and patching pants is more suited to a patcher machine where you can change the direction of the stitch simply by turning the direction of the the pressor foot. So doing a stitch around a patch is much simpler to do. You didn't mention which Sailrite machine you have. Investing in a cylinder machine may not be the overall best / correct machine for your stuff. I still would recommend visiting a dealer with samples of what you want to sew and try a patcher, a cylinder bed and a flatbed machine to see what works best for the majority of your stuff. As the investment is substantial, you and your pocket book would really hate it if you got the wrong machine for your needs. I took the information from a previous reply from Cowboy Bob in the topic called "Opinions on Cowboy CB6900" I probably misinterpreted his comment " Uwe,to confuse you more,we call it 1341 here in the US ....". patching pants isnt really a primary use case, its just something I would end up using it for. hat patches and patches on products will be really nice on the cylinder opposed too what I have now and I think it should sew my straps well too and be able to get into areas for modifying/prototyping Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treesner Report post Posted October 27, 2021 2 hours ago, MtlBiker said: Thank you! I'd watched the video twice and still didn't understand what the game changing "it" was. Maybe I'm the only newbie here who didn't catch on right away, but it would have been helpful if he (or someone) had first outlined the problem/issue and then explained the solution. This newbie thanks you. its probably one of those things where you need to own a heavy duty machine and try to sew thin stuff on it and fail. he mentions not being able to sew on the edge on his old one. would have been a better video to show him sewing that same material with the old setup to see how it fails Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
