Which sewing machine should I buy?

[Kovant]

Hello

I am looking to buy a sewing machine and I am quite confused.
I have been sewing briefcases, bags, belts, etc by hand for a few years.
I use veg tan leather from 1.3 to 3.5 mm.
I have been making shoes for a year now.
Now I am also going to start making jackets.
I would like to buy a machine with which I can do all these jobs and, if possible, that is not too expensive.
However, I am looking for a good finish on the seams.

Thank you very much for your help.

[Wizcrafts]

The projects you described suggest a cylinder arm compound feed walking foot machine that has a removable flat table attachment to support flat work. The bobbin should be an M style that holds much more thread than the standard G size bobbin used in the Singer 153, which is the forefather of modern cylinder arm walking foot machines. You'll want a machine that sews equally well using bonded thread sizes 69 through 138 and perhaps even #207 on top with 138 in the bobbin. Here is one that meets these specs.

[ljk]

I would buy a singer 45k or GA5-1 free arm clone. Huge bobbin, user friendly, simple oscillater, can take 69 thread through 415. Needles available 18-25 including leather point.   I would glue a 2mm pc. of teflon to the foot, this will reduce surface tension as the the leather slides under the foot, can also reduce need for the tension on the foot. Flat plates were available on some 45k's.  I have modified my 45k to sew out soles on the shoes I make or repair (hobby).  A shoe patcher would also help. I sew uppers with a shoe patch and also put on teflon on it.  good luck

[kgg]

1 hour ago, Kovant said:

I would like to buy a machine with which I can do all these jobs and, if possible, that is not too expensive.

To try to cover off most your requirements a cylinder arm is probably your best bet with a table top attachment which you can also purchase aftermarket or do DIY version to suite your needs. Depending on how much you can afford I would suggest either a new or good used Juki LS-1341 or a good used older Juki LS-341. After that most of the clones are copied after the older Juki LS-341 so you can have a wide selection and price range to choose from depending on where you are located.

Where are you located maybe someone can direct you to a dealer in your area?

Buy Once, Cry Once

kgg

[Spyros]

1 hour ago, Kovant said:

Hello

I am looking to buy a sewing machine and I am quite confused.
I have been sewing briefcases, bags, belts, etc by hand for a few years.
I use veg tan leather from 1.3 to 3.5 mm.
I have been making shoes for a year now.
Now I am also going to start making jackets.
I would like to buy a machine with which I can do all these jobs and, if possible, that is not too expensive.
However, I am looking for a good finish on the seams.

Thank you very much for your help.

Sorry, not to derail the discussion (I agree with Wizcraft's recommendation, if that cyclinder arm looks long enough for your projects)

My question was, did you make shoes without machines?  Is that possible?

[Kovant]

Thank you very much for your help.

I am going to look very carefully at all the proposals because I have no idea about machines.

As for where I reside, in Spain.

Yes, shoes can be made perfectly well without a sewing machine. All the upper seams are sewn like any leather item and the sole handwelted. The handwelted (goodyear construction but handmade instead of machine made) is not very difficult to find (at least in Europe), what is not usual is to sew the upper by hand, but it is not complicated at all.

Thank you!

Edited December 29, 2021 by Kovant

[chrisash]

Something like this style would probably fit the bill try looking at machines that have 335 in their name like Juki 335 and so on. but second hand in Europe you can find good machines quite cheap

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174333285802?hash=item289712d5aa:g:48gAAOSwGpBeQ8gJ 

Or https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174759267083?hash=item28b076cb0b:g:ENMAAOSw9Wlg1bq4

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by chrisash

[Cumberland Highpower]

It sounds like you have a pretty broad mix of goods to sew.   I'd suggest maybe a Seiko cyl arm machine like a CW series.   Likely cheaper than a Juki?

Don't buy a 45K or a Chinese Clone...If you plan to try to sew everything, you'll need a unison feed machine.  

I'd be somewhat surprised to hear of handwelted shoes being made in Spain or your part of Europe....I can see shoes still being made that way in The Ukraine or Romania, Bulgaria, etc....$500 a month for a worker there makes it more feasable.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Cumberland Highpower

[Kovant]

Thank you!

I will look at the second hand market and Seiko CW.

In Spain, Italy, Uk,etc they make shoes by hand (except the upper part). But they are not usually companies but craftsmen. And they are expensive, logically. 

Best regards

Edited December 29, 2021 by Kovant

[brmax]

You may want to consider your present sewing thread you use and wrestle with the realistic size you want to stay with; in the same products you want to produce using machine threads. 
I think this may be your best position first. 

It has been respectfully and smartly mentioned already the machines in your interest. Although There are more styles but keeping in a heavy duty category is again in your interest. 

There are many hand sewing thread sizes and sometimes these visually are wanted for various reasons. 
 

Good day to ya

[Kovant]

I will keep it in mind!
Thanks

[kgg]

On 12/29/2021 at 3:42 PM, Kovant said:

I will look at the second hand market and Seiko CW.

A consideration to keep in mind is the maximum size needle the machine can handle which in turn will determine the maximum size thread you can use in the machine. The 335 class (Seiko CW's) max out with a #22 (140 metric) needle which will limit you to V92 (Tkt 30) thread.

kgg

[Wizcrafts]

@Kovant- Take a look at this thread and needle chart. It will give you an idea about the diameter and strengths of various "sizes" of sewing threads and their recommended needle sizes. As a hand sewer you are probably used to using thread ranging from .5 to 1 mm diameter. While that is a typical range for hand sewing it is not typical for sewing machines. 0.5mm thread equates to #207 bonded machine thread. That calls for a #24 needle if you have the same thread on top and in the bobbin. It is also at the extreme top end of only the strongest of walking foot machines that might show up for sale in marketplaces, or online. Your average upholstery grade machine cannot handle that thickness of thread.

Here are a few sewing machines, sold and serviced by our supporting advertisers, that can tension #207 (aka: #210) thread and still use thinner thread for thinner work.

• Consew 206RB-5 flat bed walking foot machine.
• Cowboy CB341 cylinder arm walking foot machine.
• Cobra Class 26 cylinder arm walking foot machine.
• Techsew 2750 cylinder arm walking foot machine.

If you require a machine that sews with heavier thread, larger needles, or sews a higher thickness, you need to move up to a harness/holster stitcher that can tension #415 thread using a #26 or #27 needle that is a wide as a roofing nail.

[Spyros]

7 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

@Kovant- Take a look at this thread and needle chart. It will give you an idea about the diameter and strengths of various "sizes" of sewing threads and their recommended needle sizes. As a hand sewer you are probably used to using thread ranging from .5 to 1 mm diameter. While that is a typical range for hand sewing it is not typical for sewing machines. 0.5mm thread equates to #207 bonded machine thread. That calls for a #24 needle if you have the same thread on top and in the bobbin. It is also at the extreme top end of only the strongest of walking foot machines that might show up for sale in marketplaces, or online. Your average upholstery grade machine cannot handle that thickness of thread.

And if you think about it, this is the main reason why hand stitching is stronger.  People try to explain to customers with pictures and diagrams why saddle stitching is stronger, because if one thread goes you still have the other one blah blah, when really the elephant in the room is that the average hand stitched item is done with thread that is double the thickness of a similar machine stitched item.

People who machine stitch always try to go thinner because they can use smaller and cheaper machines, the bobbin lasts longer, the thread is cheaper per metre, the stitch length is shorter which makes things easier, and so on.

And people who hand stitch go thicker because a) they wanna show off their handstitching, and b) because below a certain thickness of thread you can't really see what you're doing.

[chrisash]

Whilst the above is true, its also true that you never see thick thread used on top quality brands like CC or LV and the like, most use 69 or 92 thread and 69 at 11lb breaking strain is near impossible to break just using your hands

[Spyros]

27 minutes ago, chrisash said:

Whilst the above is true, its also true that you never see thick thread used on top quality brands like CC or LV and the like, most use 69 or 92 thread and 69 at 11lb breaking strain is near impossible to break just using your hands

Sure, but the breakage in real life doesn't really happen from pulling, nobody pulls a bag apart, it happens from friction with external objects usually around the bottom.  That's where thickness makes a difference.

Besides those fashion bags are not trying to be tough, they're about other things.

 

[brmax]

I like much of whats said in above post regarding thread, thread sizes and! Some actual usage of thread sizes by some manufactures weather their hi-falutin or whatever ; )

Many here have stitched twenty years longer than I, and even longer with a an extreme few ( your knowledge is appreciated )

In any case, we can by-pass a lot, and learn later or simply recognize smartly thread manufactured, has changed with some prospering. 
Some thread is simply not available now days because of advancements in general requirements. Trying to stick within my “basic knowledge” of threads, there are a few used primarily; cotton, waxed cottons, nylon, nylons blended, polyester and their blended ratio types. 
I say blended simply because they are for reasons of stretch, circumstances and of different duty applications. 
We should have in mind at or after this brief that some threads may well be some sorta technical named blends for more extreme! Levels of usage, ie marine, heat or even outer space or etc etc. 

thats a brief bit, ya already knew; cheers with morning coffee or tea

 

ps: nylons and poly threads are the norm, and these have duration abilities with exposures to sun and weather, many are better than others with characteristics. Some of these are weird yet special when in hand, some of those oh Oh ok I am recognizing its quite a bit to take up, so, like me This forum has offered both new and experienced bits of equipment and advice. 
 

Its been good 

Edited December 31, 2021 by brmax

[brmax]

Good day 

It may be good for discussion here, to help you and for others in their future, the actual question initially posted, seriously; let us help discuss sources for machines near you or likely accessible.  
With this it may enable results!

Best regards 

[chrisash]

8 hours ago, Spyros said:

Sure, but the breakage in real life doesn't really happen from pulling, nobody pulls a bag apart, it happens from friction with external objects usually around the bottom.  That's where thickness makes a difference.

Besides those fashion bags are not trying to be tough, they're about other things.

 

But have you ever seen heavy stitches on Wallets from a quality top company, probably not, yet they can be one of the most heavily used and abused leather items also many canvas rucksacks, backpacks  sports bags etc also only use up to 92 thread

[Spyros]

4 hours ago, chrisash said:

But have you ever seen heavy stitches on Wallets from a quality top company, probably not, yet they can be one of the most heavily used and abused leather items also many canvas rucksacks, backpacks  sports bags etc also only use up to 92 thread

Which is why I make and use handmade wallets 

I don't just accept whatever "top quality" companies do.  They have their own reasons for making things the way they do, and maybe the longevity and durability of their product is not necessarily in their goals.  They're trying to sell.

 

[Cumberland Highpower]

5 hours ago, chrisash said:

But have you ever seen heavy stitches on Wallets from a quality top company, probably not, yet they can be one of the most heavily used and abused leather items also many canvas rucksacks, backpacks  sports bags etc also only use up to 92 thread

Well, I think there is a bit more to that....Its' not common to see heavy thread on a wallet because it's nearly impossible to hide the "lock" of the stitch in thin leather wallets.  It "is" a little more possible to hide the lock if you use a hook and awl machine, but only just a little easier.  I made a couple wallets for myself of thin leathers on a Randall and stitched with 277 poly.  Why? It's what I had on the machine at the time. I'd say I was able to hide the lock pretty well in that thin leather.....But a thinner thread would have been better.

 

[Cumberland Highpower]

On 12/30/2021 at 7:00 PM, Wizcrafts said:

@Kovant- Take a look at this thread and needle chart. It will give you an idea about the diameter and strengths of various "sizes" of sewing threads and their recommended needle sizes. As a hand sewer you are probably used to using thread ranging from .5 to 1 mm diameter. While that is a typical range for hand sewing it is not typical for sewing machines. 0.5mm thread equates to #207 bonded machine thread. That calls for a #24 needle if you have the same thread on top and in the bobbin. It is also at the extreme top end of only the strongest of walking foot machines that might show up for sale in marketplaces, or online. Your average upholstery grade machine cannot handle that thickness of thread.

Here are a few sewing machines, sold and serviced by our supporting advertisers, that can tension #207 (aka: #210) thread and still use thinner thread for thinner work.

• Consew 206RB-5 flat bed walking foot machine.
• Cowboy CB341 cylinder arm walking foot machine.
• Cobra Class 26 cylinder arm walking foot machine.
• Techsew 2750 cylinder arm walking foot machine.

If you require a machine that sews with heavier thread, larger needles, or sews a higher thickness, you need to move up to a harness/holster stitcher that can tension #415 thread using a #26 or #27 needle that is a wide as a roofing nail.

Wiz I get your point, but on the side,  I can't say I've ever seen a need for ever sewing with 415 thread.  The heaviest thread I've ever used is 277.   I've acquired heavier threads with machines on occasion and it usually went in the trash....  Other than maybe some heaving slings or rigging for cargo, etc...I cant understand why anyone would buy a heavier thread?

Edited January 1, 2022 by Cumberland Highpower

[Spyros]

2 hours ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

Wiz I get your point, but on the side,  I can't say I've ever seen a need for ever sewing with 415 thread.  The heaviest thread I've ever used is 277.   I've acquired heavier threads with machines on occasion and it usually went in the trash....  Other than maybe some heaving slings or rigging for cargo, etc...I cant understand why anyone would buy a heavier thread?

Why wouldn't they?  The vast majority of hand stitched items out there are done with the equivalent of 277/346/415 thread, and I've never heard anyone complaining that it looks too thick. 

Things do come apart at the seams, if I can use a stronger thread I don't see why I wouldn't.  We've kind of accepted that it's visually not ok to have a fatter seam on a bag for example, but it is visually ok to have 2 thinner seams side by side for extra strength, which is kind of absurd to me.

[Wizcrafts]

On 12/31/2021 at 7:15 PM, Cumberland Highpower said:

Other than maybe some heaving slings or rigging for cargo, etc...I cant understand why anyone would buy a heavier thread?

A year or so ago a customer dropped off some super heavy woven webbing to have me sew big loops on the ends for use in towing cars. I used #346 bonded thread and a #26 round point needle. The stitch length was 4 to the inch. The sewn parts were 1/2 inch thick. He was a happy camper and those straps never came apart due to thread breakage.

[Cumberland Highpower]

On 12/31/2021 at 9:29 PM, Spyros said:

Why wouldn't they?  The vast majority of hand stitched items out there are done with the equivalent of 277/346/415 thread, and I've never heard anyone complaining that it looks too thick. 

Things do come apart at the seams, if I can use a stronger thread I don't see why I wouldn't.  We've kind of accepted that it's visually not ok to have a fatter seam on a bag for example, but it is visually ok to have 2 thinner seams side by side for extra strength, which is kind of absurd to me.

I consider 277 to be acceptable, but you can say the "vast" majority of stitching done by hand today is done with oversize thread (346/415).  I think it's largely due to a lack of leatherworking knowledge.  In the past virtually all leatherworkers learned as aprentices or through  a Guild of some sort, where they were taught by men who knew the trade proper.. If you look at professionally hand stitched goods from the days of linen, the vast majority of goods were stitched with a much finer thread and more stitches to the inch. 2-3-4 cord.   

When I see large thread and a low stich to the inch count on a hand make item, I think novice or hobbyist right away.    I do a little hand stitching on a few specialty items and use 3 cord, maybe 4 and generally 8 stitches per inch, but on occasion I do stretch it to about 6.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Cumberland Highpower