Trox

I agree with BDT46, thats exactly waht it sounds like, adjust the brake if it is a clutch motor ( a continuous running motor is normally a clutch motor) Trox

The accessories are different; Ferdco told me their attachment did not fit a regular clone because of their lower needle guide. This is depended of the height of the stirrup plate and feet you use too. I have feet’s in three different heights. I do my adjustments according to the Juki manual. When you put on a 10 mm high plate, it is the same as sewing the same height of leather. You have to withdraw that height from the machines total capacity. It’s of course limited of the needle bar stroke, but if you zero the machine on top of the stirrup plate its sewing conditions should be better. On the big Adler’s you get a distance piece on 12 mm to adjust the outer foot height, here I use a piece of paper. Needle bar at it top it should hold the paper down, but you will be able to pull it out from the foot. You also will have to consider the harness foot I am using is 4 mm longer than the original and the plate is very high, in addition, my max foot lift is only 24 mm. The later generation machines have 27 mm foot lift. The original TSC 441 lifts only 20 mm. With all the different attachment sizes too, it will be individual how they should be adjusted. The ideal sewing conditions however, should be the way Juki explains it in their service manual. I will trim down my plate; make it flat on the top and reduce its height a bit, as an other member has done, it will suit my machine better. If I could get Bob to send me that slotted plate, I will have all I need to do my work on it. Thanks Trox

Thanks you Bruce for that info, you are a walking encyclopedia of leather tools. Yes, it looks like the Dixon style of punch and the steel is good. I might be made in the same place as the Dixons. Will you have any holyday this summer? In case, I should order something of you. And please will you look at the sewing machine section, the thread about adjustments for the 441 stirrup plate. In advance thanks Trox

I will add this, your machine might have a higher foot lift than mine ( 24 mm on mine) No way I can use the (cowboy) stirrup plate without adjusting the presserbar and alternating height. This is also the same on Adlers, I am suprised how simmilar they are ( or then maybe not, in the world of copycats) Good machines this 441, strong but sound like a threshing machine. From a new 441 user in Adler land

Hi guys, I was about to write you Wiz about the same question. Still I got my machine to sew well with the cowboy stirrup plate. However, it misses some stitches sometimes; because of its height, the plate requires a much longer thread loop. When you turn the sewing piece it affects the thread tension and makes smaller loops; resulting the hook tip to miss it. Adjustments I do: You got to adjust the presser bar so the outside foot just touches the plate (and so the foot height lifted by hand lever is 12 mm. conditions; needle bar at it’s top position) And then again adjust the alternating height of the front foot (alternating height set to be equal with the outside foot; alternating 4 mm. Condition; alternating height set to the smallest, top of the slide adjustment). Just backing of the foot pressure alone is not enough with this high plate, and then you will damage something. I think I will reduce the height of my plate and make it flat on the top as I saw one in the forum did with his. Besides the long loop situation, the top of the outer foot will hit the needle bar when lifted at the wrong time; great care has to be taken using this plate. A trim of some of its height will make it much better, I think it was the member “Particle” (I am sorry I do not remember his nick) who had done this mod to his plate. When you also have different height of presser feet’s changing attachments, it is a lot of adjustments, some modifying might help. I have as we speak also ordered the slotted plate, I think that will work better when you do not need the height and only will eliminate the feed dog. Please some of you who have this plate like you Bruce Johnson and Particle, please let us know what you do when you change. In advance thanks Trox

Hi everybody, I got this in the mail today. I bought it as an Osborn tool in EBay. It is noted in the add it is made in England, nevertheless I did not notice. Now I see on the maker stamp it says "CS. Osborne Co. Made in England"? :brainbleach: Did CS. Osborne also produce some of their tool in England? Or is this a fake? I did a spark test on it and it looks like it is made of carbon steel. Anybody who knows more about Osborne tools than I do please let me know. In advance thanks Trox

As I mentioned above the older class 67 had very many subclasses specialized for the work it was intended to do. It was two one-needle models made for leatherwork; the different between them and the other triple feed models was the feed dog, feet and a stronger foot pressure spring. It had a leaf spring and the others a coil spring for the foot pressure. However, feet’s and feed dogs are interchangeable. If the foot pressure is insufficient, (I do not think so) the spring can be changed. The feed dog can be lowered in level with the needle plate (so it is less aggressive). The hook needle distance can be adjusted to use a bigger needle and thread. Therefore, you see the differences are minor. The later model also only came in two models (one and two needle), that proves the machine is versatile and can be used for most sewing tasks, (in the upholstery class). My old 67 sewed up to 11 mm with metric size 20 thread. It can be adjusted to use nm 15 too. I never tried to push it when I had heavier machine for thicker threads. Conclusion, If it has a triple feed you can use it, the machine might be old and a obsolete model, but it uses the same parts as the newer class 167 so that is not a problem. The hook is different but can be purchased from aftermarket part sellers everywhere. I doubt than any other part than the hook can be worn out, it is made of the best German steel. And in the prime time of German sewing machine production. It will survive us all. I hope this answered your question, try it out. Good luck Thanks Trox

Good lightning is necessary, I have a magnet led lamp that attach under the head, beside the needle bar. Very handy, but only one diode. I purchased mine in Norway, so I do not know the prices for them at Kwokhing. If you buy one, choose one with more than one diode, with diodes on both side of the needle bar. The ones from Kwokhing look good. Trox

Hi Nick, That is a Adler 67 or 167. Those two classes is the same machine, the only different is that the later 167 has a bigger bobbin. Adler 67 comes in many subclasses and has all kinds of feeds, from wheel feed to triple feed. The 67 sublasses for leather has a long leaf spring (for the foot pressure) on the top, this has not. The 167 comes only in two subclasses, one and two needle. Ask for a picture of the back side of the head where the machine class sign is located. The 67 and 167 is a very good sewing machine of the upholstry class. What kind of machine are you looking for? I hope this was to some help. Good luck Trox

Hi, Yes you have to email them, they do not have much for the TSC 441 yet (a couple of feet’s and the blanket plate), but they will start to make that to. A suspending guide (drop down) is from 20 to 25 $, feet’s from 12 to 20 $ and binders from 9 to 15 $. I base this prices upon what I bought from them before. The one I deal with is named Bosco Ko; he is very service minded and helpful person. I send in my order (on mail) and in a day or two, I receive a quote with prices, further pictures and so on. They use Paypal, so it is very safe and easy. They supply mostly for the modern production machines, If you have a special order they can make it too. I have bought guides for two of my other machines (D.A. 267-373 and Pfaff 345); I measured those guides to find out that I needed something a bit longer for the 441. The guide they supply for the DA 205-370 is the same one I have bought for my smaller (above) Adler. That guide looked a bit short for the 441 machine. What kind of equipment do you need? Trox

G`Day to you too, Thanks for your reply. Your machine looks very nice. Except for the name exactly like mine. I am still waiting for the shipment, it was sent express. It just figures, when you wait on something real bad, the D#%&.. tracking do not work. It only says out of US this date… and no more. The Norwegian tracking never works, they downsizing the Norwegian postal service and let normal grocery shops do the job. The call it “post in store”, I call it disaster. They lay all their trained workers go (with a financially parachute) and let untrained grocery store workers do their work. The machine works great and I find it especially easy to set the right tension on it, maybe because my experience of older bottom feed stitchers, who are not this easy to adjust. I too have been looking at that boxing attachment; if somebody has used it please let us know. I agree the dropdown sewing guide is not that necessary on a low speed machine. I usually make groves for the stitches to lie down in, they are easy to follow. However the guide it is good for other things too, you get extras for it like piping guide etc. http://www.kwokhing.com/da/. Kwokhing has very nice prices and good service too, they are located in Hong Kong and takes Paypal. I ordered this guide for my machine; it is a bit longer than the others I have from before. I am sure it will fit the clone. KG 967= 24, 60$ and the bracket for the Adler 205 (I think it will fit the Juki too, I am 99% sure it will work) = 5, 80 $. The guide comes with a roller and a long guide (or a zipper guide) I see the same guides sell on EBay for over 100 $, Kwokhing is the one making it. My 441 has no threaded hole on the backside to attach the bracket, I have to make them. I just did the same job on my Pfaff cylinder bed; I will post it here when I am done. Once you get use to having a guide like this, you wonder how you did with out it. Especially good for top stitching, where a conventionally guide will not work. I also ordered that piping guide (6, 60 $, coming from one of the worlds most expensive countries, I just love their prices), it fits my two others guides too. I believe they have and will make more sewing attachment that fit’s the suspending guide system. This was a bit free advertising for Kwokhing, but they deserve it. Kwokhing… Happy sewing to you too, Greetings Trox

Hi Darren, It is a used machine for sale in Norway just like the ones you are selling. It is for sale very cheap 167 $ (USD) I have no use for it but if somebody has I can buy it and ship it. I should be in working order but needs a service (like every used machine needs). What kind of needle system is this machine using, and can it do more than a 29K. Please compare it to a 29K, what do you think. It is only 40 km from me, I can ask if it still available. I might also a customer for it my self. Trox

The former posts was a bit of our discussed topic:offtopic: I was wrong in my presuming you had a Cobra, Dirtclod. The old Juki Pro 2000 is a Japanese American made machine and has to be top notch. 　 Thanks Art for your answer. I have heard the Highlead is a very good and strong machine. These machines sounds like something the farmers use to cut corn with, at those speeds it will be advisable to use hearing protection. 　 　 　 Thank you Tom for pictures and informative answer. Your accessories looks great, I have seen pictures of the single harness foot. One-day later update. Bob from Toledo offered me a good deal on the missing hand lever, stirrup plate, smooth feed dog, harness foot set, and a full paddle foot set. Only when buying all this together I could get a good deal like this, so I took it. (Parts is shipped express and is in the mail now). Thank you Bob for great service and fast shipping. The drop down guide I ordered from Kwokhing, I choose an extra long guide KG 967 and an Adler 205 bracket. (They do not sell a special guide made for the 441, but I am sure this will fit) Tom, Last time I bought from your company, I try to spread my (hard earned) Norwegian oil dollars evenly among you member dealers. (It is a quick job; it is not much of it. Price and availability is of course the key factor here, some of the parts you could not offer me, next time it can be the other way around) Thank you Tom and Art, you had both partly right about the jumping foot issue. The people that first assembled the machine cannot have been very experienced on the matter. They have mounted the motor to close to the machine, so the foot lift chain was resting on the motor. The reason I did not move it when I attached the speed reducer was that they had used threads inside the tabletop to fix it. Those threads is permanently fixed inside the wood, I did not have new bolts that was long enough to drill new holes and left it the way it was. Now I have eliminated the issue with an exhaust clip and a brass tube piece. This keeps the chain clear of the motor. See attached pic. About the stitch length I know how to adjust the stitch user length on the lever; I have several machines with the same system. I meant the mechanically adjustments of the stitch length 　 　 I did not explain well enough about the issues. I use to service all my machines myself, It kind of a hobby to buy and build up machines. I occasionally sell one or two too. I now have ten and selling five of them. Three was up for sale before I got this, If this machine works well, I be selling two more. (Adler’s 204-64 and 105-25) I will keep the ones I am using now, a long arm Singer patcher, a medium pfaff cylinder, a Dürkopp Adler 267-373, and this 441 clone. The 441 came with an ISM 600 Watt four pole clutch motor. It is surprisingly easy to use on slow speed, even before I attached a speed reducer. However I am considering putting a Efka 1550 stop motor on it, I like those Efka`s, I use them on some of my other machine too, no need for a speed reducer with this motor. I have a Juki service manual, when I told you that I have not read it, I lied. I am the kind of machine freak that reads sewing manuals as bed and toilet literature. In addition, do so long before I actually buy the particular machine I read about. However, I have not studied it closely yet, just read true it. In the manual they say it is important to adjust it to the right maximum stitch length, When the hand lever is on full it should be 11 mm according to the manual. Nevertheless, if the needle is not in conflict with anything, I do not know how important this matter really is. These are Juki specifications, I asked because you all have experience with the clone and know how similar it is to the real thing. If I had a Juki, I would just adjust it according to the manual. A other thing I have learned about machines is that everything tend to be related to each other, all adjustments has to be done in the right order. This is the case with my Alder’s, and most other machines too. I will go true and control every adjustment according to the Juki manual later. Besides the stitch length, the machine now works, as it should. Thanks Tor

That the way to do it Darren I agree with you, and be very informative about the product you sell. Lead the customer in the right direction and create the marked you do not already have. For my own sales I will use all that our modern world can offer of cheap technology, a video on every machine explain what thousand words cannot. We all have that technology in our pocket phone; very few use this basic tool. A customer do not know all the wonders the machine can do, or more important not do. However, remember to have what they need when they are ready to step up to a bigger machine, or else you will loose them to an other dealer. The 45 type of machine is something special indeed; I have a hard time selling my Adler 5-27 with all the extras. The pre war machine still looks like new. I maybe will keep it in my living room, so I remember to start work. Trox

That is true Darren, but I am afraid I had been stuck with it myself. Norway has a population of five millions, and only five of them are saddlers. (I do not know of every one who is, but it is not many) This 441 clone was for sale for a long time here, at a very good price. I offered them a small down payment and a full payment on pickup 60 days later. Even with those conditions, I was able to get the price further down. That tells you about the demand. Saddlers here are a dying breed; you have of course the people that cannot afford to pay for repairing their horse tack. They want a machine to fix it them self, and buy a Singer 99 on the local auction site. When they finally understand that 200 $ cannot get them what they want, they buy some tack made of nylon instead. I hesitate to list my five for sale machines locally, I do not like the result I might get. I had better sell them to foreign dealers for less to save time. Alternatively, the way I have done it before, I wait for somebody who needs a certain machine and I set it up for him/her to a friendly price. Then again, they take up needed space, and getting less modern every day. I got an offer from a German dealer on two of my Adler’s yesterday, and I need a German Efka motor, maybe as part of the deal. You need machines Darren, is It a lot import tax for you? I have heard something about tax free older goods, items made before the introduction of tax system, is free of tax. What about antiques, are they free of tax in your place? Trox

Thank you all for your replies. I had to take my dogs for a walk; it is the middle of the night here now, so I am of to bed. I will answer your posts tomorrow, with some pictures to explain the issue better. Thanks for all help and good night. Trox

Thank you Tom for clearing this up, you are working together with Steve I presume. I tried to sew some veg.-tanned leather on my machine with the standard plate and feed dog. Most of the markings underneath seem to come from the small groves in the blanket needle plate. Those groves can be grinded of and polished, and with a smooth feed dog, it will be just fine. Are your Cobra standard plates smooth? I also have two small issues with my machine, they might be related. The foot pedal jumps up and down when sewing (it sounds like some big agriculture machine, compared to my Adler's), It do not disturb the sewing, but is very annoying. The stitch length on full is also to long; 16 mm, it has to be 11 mm. I have not had the time to read the service manual yet, when I adjust the stitch-length, maybe the pedal issue is gone too? (It backtacks in the same holes and the needle do not hit anything, despites it long stitch length). Is this right? It is more that do not add up to the machine specs too. This machine is produced in 2007 and sold in France. The foot lift is supposed to be only 20 mm, (on your later machines the foot lift is increased to 1 1/8 inch) I measured mine it to be 24, 6 mm, about one inch. What is changed in the newer machines to increase the foot lift, it uses the same needle system 794 (7x3). Do you know the answer to this? (I believe this was three questions, bare with me please). In advance thanks. (I am sorry for the bad pictures, old Iphone) Trox

[Thank you Dirtclod, Bruce and Art, This answered my first question; I decided to choose the stirrup plate. The paddle foot looks very clever too, I often have problems with my other walking foot machines, sewing along the edge and rounding a corner. The vibrating presser go outside the edge, the paddle foot will resolve this problem. And if they do not work out, they can be altered in to a harness foot. I agree with Art the center presser has to be opened or else I have to sew blind. (I see a lot of this closed foot on Chinese equipment, they are useless in my opinion) 　 I understand you all have different versions of the 441 clone. Bruce you use the Pro 2000, Art you use the Cobra 4, I guess Dirtclod also use the Cobra? I believe the Cobra comes with the slotted plate as a standard, and then the machine only uses its top feed. When other machines like the Cowboy 4500, comes with a smooth feed dog and a standard needle plate, using their triple feed. I would very much like your opinion on this too. I also use a Pfaff cylinder bed and a Dürkopp Adler flat bed for my smaller work. They are both triple feed and uses feed dogs. The Pfaff uses a smooth feed dog and on both machines has their feed dogs set in level with the needle plate. None of them tends to mark the underside of the leather much. However, on the big stitchers, the foot pressure will increase and it will likely be a bigger issue here. (I am used to bottom feed heavy stitchers and know of the tricks to avoid markings) What is your experience on this matter? In advance thanks. Trox

TSC 441 accessories, holster or stirrup plate? I am looking to buy some saddlers accessories for my 441 clone. I recently bought minor used 441 clone here in Norway; it only came with a single and double blanket foot. The machine is not at much use to me with this clumsy big feet’s I already decided to buy a harness foot set, left and right paddle feet’s, a suspending guide and a smooth feed dog for it. I also need an elevated needle plate, holster or stirrup plate. These accessories are quite pricy; I will have to settle for only one of them. I will not be making many stirrups, more bags, cases and occasionally a holster. It looks like it is not necessary to remove the feed dog; using the holster plate? I wonder what are the pros and cons on these plates. Which plate is the most versatile? What are you using your plates for, Which foot are the most useful and so on? Please share your experience with us. I appreciate all opinions and help. In advance thanks Trox

97% of the time it is threads that jamming the bobbin house. A manual, some directions and some time to think, voila.

This is what a repair man will do. Get to know your machine, you can not bring it to the repair shop every time somethings happens. But this might be a repairmans job, then againg it might only be some thread under the bobbin house. It is a common cause. Nobody will blame you for giving it up, but you can do it. Trox

Hi, I do not know for sure, but I think it has a clutch (I have sold my 67-73, and I do not remember if it had, but yes I think so) you must do like Bob (Sewmun) told you. But first, take out the bobbin house and clean out old threads that might block it. Remove the needle plate and the feed dog first. Then remove the three very tiny screws on the top of the bobbin house, and remove it. Clean out the old thread, if any.Then clean and oil before assembling the bobbin house. Before you assemble the feed dog and plate, remove the needle and put in a NEW needle size Nm 90 (your needle might look good, but is bent and wont work. A new unused right size and system 134-35 Smetz needle from the pack). Then turn the machine (against you) and look at the hook timing, the needle goes down to it lowest position, and up ca. one millimeter. The tip of the hook must pass the needle over the needle eye in order to catch the thread loop. The distance between the needle and the hook tip should be about 0.2 mm. (check the manual, hook-needle distance, not in the timing prosess). If the hook want turn, you must reengage the clutch. Lock the clutch (according to the manual) and turn the hand wheel backwards util it reengages, click sound!!. If the timing is off, it is possible it had jumped over some tooth on the gear (cog)wheel, like Bob told you. You must the time it as described above. DoYou have a service manual? Mine are German, If you want it let me know. You do not need any special tools to time the hook, like they say in the manual. Just be sure the hook tip passes just over the needle eye, (inside the needle scarf) when the needle has past its lowest position and its one millimeter on its way up again. Go on, you can do it.... I hope this helps. Trox (Do you use a fishing line thread? It is not bit stiff for the Adler? It likes soft polyester and core spun cotton the best and braided polyester. Sometimes with a bit stiff, big sizes nylon bond, you will have stitch errors with the Adler's.) Hi again. The machine is a Adler 67-372T/HO. Serial No. 29599 . I tried your suggestion of the longer bobbin thread and left the closing plate open. The lower half of the bobbin case turns around when I move the hand wheel towards me but the bobbin thread stays in the same place and nothing is caught by the needle thread. I'm thinking that maybe there is old thread stuck under the lower half of the bobbin case and in our manual it explains how to clean the hook assembly and that includes that area. We will try cleaning that tomorrow and reassembling it. I'm not familiar with all the terms for the machine parts. I called a repair person and he says we live too far out and would have to bring the machine to him. If we can't figure this out soon, we'll load it up and haul it to his place - it's pretty heavy so I'd rather not have to do this. Once again - thanks for all the helpful suggestions.