bruce johnson

CWR, If that is the way it came, I would leave it alone. That sounds right - a liner under the strainer, nail the strainer to the bars, cantle, and lower fork. Then come the build-up(s) glued onto the top of the strainer. The riser pieces underneath create the clearance for the stirrup leathers and help to define their range of motion. The number size and shape of the build ups all affect how the saddle sits. They are the base for the seat. If you go to changing the geometry of the groundseat, you may have hell trying to get the seat to fit back. Some of the two piece seats will split right out at that seam when you spike them back down over a higher buildup or have bubbles in the gaps. If they have ridden it this long, chances are it may not be an issue to them as is. If it is a problem and they want a different groundseat shape, be prepared to make another seat too. Sometimes you can do some little tweaking, soak the seat, and draw it in alright though. A lot of these performance and event saddles don't have much buildup. Some is for a better performance for that event, and other times that seat is "because that is how it has been done for some time". I have worked on some saddles that a few hundred thousand probably have been won out of, and they may have one pattern skived buildup. I have one in right now where there is just the fiberglass strainer. No build ups under the chap leather seat, and the foam is long gone. It is a 2 piece seat so the seat overlay is the only thing over the strainer. I googled her, and she has won a lot in a different part of the country.

Again, there are some design issues with this one. They are not measuring the gullet width correctly. The seller is telling you the horn cover is loose, but not showing you the picture. They are telling you the fleece is all there and good, but the screws for the corner plates show - again, no picture. They are telling you the leather is dry. It looks like the cantle binding has been off and restitched at some point. It weighs 25#. Back when it was made, one of the marks of a quality saddle was what it weighed. No returns accepted. I think David hit the nail when he said at the price point you are looking at here, it is going to be hard to do much better. I don't know where you live, but here's the deal out here. This kind of saddle sits on the used consignment rack at the feedstore for about $150-200. Some sell, some don't. These saddles sell at the twice a month horse auctions for $100-150. Not many private shops are going to deal with them because there is no incentive. The margins aren't much and the liability is. The better market for some of these a while back was for interior designers. They'd buy them and nail them to the wall of the steakhouses and bars.

My two cents opinion. Just because a saddle is an oldie, doesn't mean it is a goodie. The Wyeth - Those quilted seats like that got to me pretty quick when I had to ride one. I don't like the exposed rigging plates like that much either. They catch leathers and eat them after a while. The front rigging is about where I like them. The back ring sits about 1-1/2" or 2" forward of where I like them, especially on this kind of saddle. The Little saddle looks like a better choice between the two. Nice seat looks like. There is a lump in the seat where the stirrup leathers come over the bars. That might be an issue. My only real criticism would be the rigging position. This front ring sits pretty far forward. Seeing where it is in relation tot he low point of the front bar pads would tell me more. The basck dee looks a little forward to me on this one also. I like the front edge of my back dees to sit at the point of the cantle as a forward reference, and some I like them back a little off that depending on the tree and purpose of the saddle.

Curbstrap, I have to suspect that rigging plate is riveted through the rigging piece and hopefully the skirt and plug underneath. That is a big assumption sometimes right there. The stitching all the way around (probably machine sewn) has perforated those layers of leather. With the age of this saddle, strength might be an issue to start with. Factor in a nice line of perforatins from the needle and it could unzip at a really bad time. Not to debate the whole geometry of riggings, but this looks like a good example of a bad example to me. It looks like that part angling up and forward is what is probably attached to the topside of the bars, right there in front of the pivot point. There is not much or any sort of obvious attachment behind that. Cinch it up and the forces will pull the front of the bar points down. Perforated and pulling the fronts down. Not a good combination for rider safety or caballo comfort. I am not a packer, but that whole idea of seats like this in any saddle and the whole rigging issue would send me looking elsewhere. That seat looks flat side to side, and then just drops straight down. It would have the comfort of stradding a crate all day. Factor in that ramped horn to cantle seat profile and it is formula for riding in and hiking out. As one of my senior pals said about one similar,"I'd rather ride any breed that starts with "A" than that kind of rig". He was quite colorful and direct.

Not to sound like a smart a--, but I don't think those pin adjusters ever were in fashion. Are you looking at this saddle to buy? From the pics there are some real design issues that make me think it was a bottom ender to start with. It starts with the stitching around the rigging plate perforate it, and ends with the latigo being strung through the slots on the rear jockeys to either carry the tail or some used that tails as a back billet to hang the rear cinch off. The strings laying over the sheepskin is not quite what most us would do and the seat shape is pure factory. I would maybe agree on the age, and probably the guess on general region it was made.

I would trim back the ends where the old AlRay buckles were to get into some fresh leather and then just use copper rivets to attach the new leathers with.

Sal, This is the difference -

I had one of the tools that cut the two slits for the spots. I am thinking it came from Weaver, but not seeing it in my catalog. I can't remember if I gave it away or threw it away to save someone else the frustration. The blades were ground at too steep of a slant, not a flat enough bevel. Do that to some metal with tempering of playdough and every hit required straightening the blades because the points rode the bevel and were touching. Nice idea - bad tool.

It may be just what we have been taught to call them by whoever we learned from. I was taught and read vein lines are on the flesh side of full thickness sides. You can use these vein line patterns to pair up reins on unpslit sides. The wrinkles on the grain side are called fat wrinkles. They are not necessarily fat in origin though. These hides are coming off areas of the cattle that are not flat and have some looser fiber from movement on the living cow. To process these hides are stretched and worked to be flat. Some of these heavier shouldered cattle have a lot of bulge that will work down but have some wrinkles from compressing. Some of the older thinner cows get wrinkles right over the top of their necks and shoulders from head down to eat, head up to look around and move the flies, head back down, etc. Those wrinkles are pretty linear across the shoulders. These wrinkles indicate to me stretchier areas that may be an issue with the project or might be an advantage if they are oriented with a fold.

Steve, Thanks for that perspective, and I would bet that if Meana, Coggshell, and Ernst would have met in Sheridan, they'd have argued about groundseats back then too. When they got tired of that, they picked up on how trees ought to fit, and then switched over to what leather was the best. After they were done and the Mint (or whatever was there then) closed, one went north, one went south and one stayed in town. They weren't unanimous very much 90 years ago, but still we've all heard of them. This thread has some age on it, and if you go back and read through it, you will find some different points of view today. The bottom line is that good and bad seats can be made with a strainer or without. Troy West said it, anybody want to argue with his track record? Steve Brewer agreed, and he has been described as "one of the best saddlemakers not enough people have heard of". Dale Harwood uses a strainer and Chuck Stormes uses all leather. I am not going to step up and tell any of them they are wrong. Look at some of the other good makers on this thread and forum and who they learned from. They aren't all doing it like they started out, or even like who they learned from later. It wasn't settled back then and won't be now, but it is good watching.

Kevin, My brutally honest experience. I am going to be in the minority and not a 100% satisfied customer. I bought a pretty good sack full of CF inserts at Sheridan 4 years ago or so. I think I had a couple styles of wallet liners, at least two of the same style purse setups, and some small card cases. In their defense, they are very thin and sleek. I am with Bob on the zippers. There is a pretty small sewing lip allowance on some of the inserts. Machines can tend to run off the edge. I think I remembered one to have a fair amount of fabric that bled glue. Customer experience for guys wallets has not been real stellar. I made one for myself to see and the guts lasted about 6 months. My Tandy guts had lasted about 6 years in the one I was packing before and were still good. The Tandy gut one that replaced the CF has been good for a few years. I bought up all the unpunched Tandy Premier wallet liner guts I could find. I have three sets left. Wallets are not a big order deal for me, but we all get a few orders and I always have one on hand for an emergency gift order.

Brent, I hate to just say "Another great job" with nothing else to qualify it, so here goes. Another great job on everything you have done similar to before, and I like that little deal you did with the slotted conchos on the back billets of this one.

Steve, Great posting, and I have to agree with JW. You have convinced me to go back to cutting my handhole and stirrup slots after fitting in the seat. Thanks.

Crystal. Here's hoping I understand the question right. I was kind of given this rule of thumb - Try to get as close as you can to the fold, but the cut or bevel line should be either supported by a stiff backing (like on a binder) or far enough away it will not be any part of the fold on a checkbook or wallet. There is more tolerance for lines that are beveled and not cut, but any folding tension on these is across that line, a weak spot, and can separate with use. I usually gouge my folds on the flesh side and allow for my tooling borders to be within the full thickness of the leather. Back when, I was taught that patterns never crossed a fold that would be worked. They would tear out, pop open, etc. Some of the pattern packs have pretty well tossed this out, so I guess take my advice with a grain of salt. As far as the visual, I get my top or side in the right place for the fold, and then establish my borders off the stitch line. Visually I like my stitch line to be centered between the edge of the piece and the border. I have seen big borders to account for the extra space needed at the fold and then carried that same margin all the way around. They looked a bit odd to me stitched but lacing filled that gap in and looked alright.

Kevin, The mix I use now is from Ben Cox, who got it about 25 plus years ago from a great tooler. The mix is 1-1/2 cups water, 1/2 cup lexol conditioner, a tbsp or two of baby shampoo, and a tabsp of Listerine (the thymol in it is a mold inhibitor). It works better for me to case with than anything else. I got an email a while back from a guy who was using the Lexol/shampoo mix and then top dressing with saddle soap. He was in Tucson or someplace like that, and he thought he could go a lot longer with both than either by itself. As far as being a tool god, Bob Douglas is a tool god. I am just part of the congregation. I have been very fortunate with the people we have met in our travels and on these internet groups. I am not afraid to visit guys and pick up tips. If I see something I haven't tried, I'll ask them about it. Even the regional differences can be interesting - for instance the British influenced guys using plough gauges vs. the north Americans using draw gauges. Also the older tools were made for guys making a living with them, not or the hobby guy with a price point in mind.

Thanks for the show report and looking forward to the pictures. Sounds like you met some of the great people in this business. You guys have got me stoked to go. One question, You didn't buy anything from Barry or Wayne?? This is the first time in a few years I haven't had something on my Barry King list and the only reason for that is I just saw him last weekend. I can't call Wayne to BS without having him send me something. I am not immune to their wiley charms. My wife will want to know your secret.

Jeremiah only is making one size and it will work if you need a really narrow bead. Barry King makes the push beaders in four sizes and I like them pretty well. I would agree with the suggestion of Bob Douglas also. I ordered a set of new Osbornes a few years ago and they were the crude makings of a tool, and all but unusable the way they came.

CW, I used to. I wet my leather up, let it sit a while, sponged on a light coat of white saddle soap and slicked the leather before I bagged it. This was one of those things shared with me by an older maker, and for me it does hold the moisture a little better than plain water. When I started using the water/lexol/baby shampoo/listerine mix I got away from the saddle soaping. That mix also has some history to it.

All I've ever done is line with it, if it the pig I am thinking of. The stuff I got in the past was a little stretchy, but not quite that thick. A scrap of it is gauging right at 1-1/2 oz.

Russel, I am attaching a picture of the leg of my cutting table. In a former life it was a homeless desk sitting by the road with a "Free" sign on it. The leg extensions look amazingly like sections of PVC pipe slipped over them to raise the height. (Rundi saw that tip on Martha Stewart or Rachel Ray). It is 40" to the top and then I have a 5/8 particle board and then 3/8 HDPE cutting board over that.

Marlon, Just to add another name to the mix for edgers - Bob Douglas makes some good ones of those too. My wife got me going with his Bisonettes.

DJ, For the thread to be breaking out the side, it sounds like you are getting an undercut on the strap from the blade. The only two things I can see causing that are the blade bending or the leather coming through at an angle. On either of mine, the blade is stiff, so I don't think that is probably the case. If the roller is fairly high I have got an undercut if the leather rode up the blade on that side of the strap and the strap stayed low next to the fence. I keep my roller pretty low to avoid that.

Gabrielle, I think Dennis might be in the US right now traveling. I heard from one of his traveling buddies and they might be stopping by here in a couple weeks. They were spending some time in Texas and going to OKC for the TCAA deal and I'd suspect Wichita Falls too.

Adding another here. (Sorry Johanna, but this was the peach shirt phase of the day.) This is a picture of Martin "Boomer" Bergin and me. It was a real special time to BS with him throughout the day.

I would keep shopping. Buy one that works for both of you to start with. Retreeing a saddle is pretty major surgery. You can have the cost of another saddle pretty quick. Especially going from one style to another, not many parts are going to fit. About the only saddles I have retreed are trophy saddles or sentimental favorites.