gottaknow

I think this machine is anxious to get back to it's owner. All packed up and ready to hit the road. I've done the final sew off with the original materials I was furnished. Two layers of a really nice garment leather, and two layer of heavy blanket. It started out 1/2" to 5/8" uncompressed and measured really close to 3/8" sewn. That approaching the limits of this machine. Much heavier and you'd want something with a shuttle hook and higher lift. Again, the machine can be made to sew more, but they perform best when kept to their intended use. I used Groz Beckert 135X16 needles, size 22 with their DI/DIA leather point. They worked great for all that I sewed and for fun I sewed 12 layers of heavy denim that we're making jeans out of. You can certainly hem a pair of jeans with a leather needle if you don't mind some needle cutting, but Groz Beckert makes needles just for denim with their RG point that are titanium coated to run cooler with little needle cutting. Regards, Eric

Mia's machine had multiple complex issues. Yours may be simple. When I get time..heh..I'll post a list of things for you to check. Is there any way you can take a picture and post it here of what your stitches look like top and bottom? That will get us started. Regards, Eric

Make sure when you stop to turn that the needle bar has gone all the way down and risen past the point where the hook picks up the needle thread. That way, the loops already secured by the hook and you can turn your heart out. If you turn with the needle all the way down, your hook hasn't picked up the the loop that probably not formed yet and you'll get a skip. Regards, Eric

Glad that's working out for you! It really is a decent machine. It's unusual to find a needle feed machine that will handle lightweight fabric so well. As for needles, I'm a big fan of Groz Beckert. It's mainly what I use in the factory. Here's a link to some pdf's about sewing needles for leather. http://www.universalsewing.com/images/catalogs/grozbeck/english/gbsew15.pdf The basic needle for your machine is a 135x7. The original Singer # is 1955. I'd check with the sponsors here far a particular point type. Garment leather is less demanding than heavier. We are making equestrian knickers out of Lycra and setting on 2 oz. deer suede pads using a ball point needle. Using a leather needle cuts the rubber filaments in the Lycra and the leather doesn't care. I prefer a wedge point for lightweight leather. I'd call one of the sponsors and chat with them about your needs. For the deer suede we use 40 tex poly/cotton and a size 90/14. We sew the leather at 3000 stitches per minute without a leather needle. Have fun! Regards, Eric

One of the things I checked for was the up and down play in the feed dog carrier. It's common with older walking foot machines to have excessive play here. They take a real pounding. Fortunate that Singer made the eccentric on the lower shaft harder than the guide. Checking from underneath, there was almost about 3/32" up and down movement. During sewing, I could feel a bit of a chatter. This is a part that contains a felt pad that needs to be kept oiled. I put in a new one and then oiled it good. The screw that mounts this is also the screw that sets the height of the feed dogs, so that was done by setting the valleys between the teeth level with the throat plate when the feed dogs are all the way up. The pictures show the location and the wear in the old piece. Regards, Eric

As for the hook timing, it's dependant on the top and bottom shafts being in time. Many people skip this important first step. You can certainly time the hook as I've done, but the machine won't sew good long term in a variety of conditions. That said, I always check shaft timing first unless it's a machine I've already worked on. I've included the basic ideas right on the pictures attatched. I'll just outline the process here and attatch the pics. I set the needle bar height, (which in this case meant lowering it back down to use the 135x16's.) I had to come up with a new timing mark since the needle bar carrier had been cut off to use the longer 190's. Once that was done, it was pretty standard. Set the stitch length to 0. Turn handwheel towards me until needle bar is all the way down then raise to the lower timing mark on the needle bar. This places the needle where I will time the hook to. If at some point it gets moved, simply re-adjust. I then move the guard out of my way so I can move the hook saddle tight enough to just barely touch the needle. I set the rotational timing after that, which on 211's is slightly retarded (hook point is lower on the needle). I then move the guard back to push the needle to the left, protecting the needle and more important the point of the hook. Mia's hook was nice and sharp, but I did replace the bobbin basket. The rotation timing is set by loosening the two set screws on the gear that sets on the lower main shaft. Moving this left and right will advance or retard the timing as you need. Note that one of the screws is in a V groove in the shaft. Make sure it stays there. The gear is tapped left or right on the shaft as needed. Tighten them good. Check everything several times and make sure it's how you want it. Regards, Eric

Heh...yeah, needless to say I keep busy. I actually started two holsters this week. Both are pancakes for semi's, one for myself and one for a co-worker. I was actually searching the holster forum for more tidbits of info. Odd that I have lots of machines available, but I'm getting a kick out of hand stitching. Honestly Wiz, I enjoy my job so much when I was a new mechanic, I usually had a machine head on the kitchen table I worked on at night. Take 'em apart, put back together, repeat. Even the years I spent as a plant manager, I still worked on machines every chance I got. We are pursuing a patent as well right now on a machine I engineered that saves 50% of the labor on a particular type of seam. If I get bored with all that, I'm an artist, guitar player, sew and fly kites, and still have a locksmith license. Like you, I do really enjoy helping folks with what I know. Regards, Eric

Machines that aren't adjusted quite right will have spells that they actually sew. Especially if being demonstrated by the seller. I've seen this numerous times. There's no way Mia could have tinkered enough with this machine to give it the problems it had. I do recall Mia describing a big mess when she was trying to sew. It was probably the classic "birdnest" she got that made the machine not work at all. Things just weren't tight enough. I'm convinced now that it was probably a decent machine until someone tried to convert it to the longer needle class. They removed the timing belt and advanced the hook timing, probably because they lost reference of the needle bar rise. From there it was downhill. As I said earlier, most lockstitch machines will sew with the timing belt off one tooth. These machines are pretty forgiving. When they are pressed to their max, either with thickness or speed, that's when adjustment problems reveal themselves. I'm a firm believer in education and this site has really boosted the quality of my leather work. What a great resource, no matter what the subject. I like that I can give back something that I really enjoy. I think there are many here that fall into that category. Next up is hook timing. Regards, Eric

Before I get into the hook timing, there were issues I had to address with the tension unit. I removed the top screw which also holds the thread guide, and then the often overlooked set screw which holds the check spring unit. The screw was damaged which Mia had warned me about. I got it out without much trouble and replaced it. The tension post was bent which you can see in the photo. The tension release pin looked too short as soon as I saw it. A lot of the time the pins just wear, but this one had been ground off. I suspect it was attempt to make it work with the bent post. I figured this was the begining issue with the tension not releasing when the foot was lifted. When I took the machine apart, I also noticed the hook cover plate wasn't the correct one. There had been an attempt to grind off the wrong plate to give more clearance above the hook. I'm sure the heavier thread was getting caught against the bottom of the plate. The correct plate in the picture allows plenty of room. I was begining to understand some of the issues Mia was up against. Regards, Eric

I'm thinking she was serious about throwing her machine out the window!

The needle bar had been raised to use the longer 190 needles. Had the machine actually been timed properly, it would have at least a chance to sew correctly. Just because a machine can be changed to a different needle system doesn't mean it's a good idea. Especially if you're not capable or retiming things correctly. On this particular machine, there's really little to be gained by using a longer needle. There are plenty of needles available in the system 135x17 and 16. You are limited by the lift of the presser feet. I have changed the Singer 211G151's (no walking foot) from system 135x7 to the longer 135x17. There is plenty of presser foot lift and the standard 211's will handle the additional thickness when working with softer woven goods. Singer actually produced a needle bar with 3 timing marks in order to easily switch between the two classes. I would not however convert a non-walking foot machine to the longer needle to sew leather. The lack of a walking foot would not allow for a gain in thicker, hard leather. That said, here's a couple of pictures of what I did with the needle bar. Regards, Eric

I always check the top and bottom shaft timing first. Unless this is set correctly, everything else is a waste of time. This machine was off by one tooth of the gear, which you'll see in the pictures below. It's hard to say why the individual changed this, but I suspect it had to do with trying to time the hook to the longer needle. It was pretty quick to slip the belt off the bottom gear and line the timing marks back up. On the vast majority of Singer machines, you rotate the handwheel until the take-up lever is all the way up. Instead of just watching it, I push on it with a finger. I will already have the machine tipped back so I can see the timing marks. Just one tooth off is more than enough to throw several other setting off. Regards, Eric

I'm hoping this particular thread will do a couple things. Bring a better understanding of industrial machines for people that may be having trouble, educating those who are deciding to buy new or used. I do know that having a reputable dealer is worth a lot. Thanks to fellow member miaoreo for trusting me to repair her machine to a useable condition. There is a lengthy thread outlining her trials and tribulations with her newly aquired Singer 211G155. I have always been big on education and I hope to share some of what I've learned repairing machines for a living. This website is a never ending resource of information. I know my leatherwork has improved a great deal as a result. During the course of following her troubles, it was obvious to me the machine had been modified poorly and it had multiple issues. No sense beating a dead horse, so on to the issues I encountered: Top and bottom shafts were out of time. Hook timing was too far advanced. Needle bar height was off (I reset to original Singer needle and timed it using existing timing marks that you will now see. Removed original thread lubricator as bottom edge was sharp as a razor.(replaced with Singer guide) Hook compartment cover was wrong one, not enough clearance above hook (replaced with proper one) Replaced tension release pin (old one had been ground down) Replaced entire tension plate Hook was too far from needle. Needle guard was not adjusted. Tension post was bent. Tension release disk was wrong one for the machine.(replaced with proper one) Feed dog hole had been modified WAY too big (I replaced the feed dogs and throat plate to match) Replaced set screw for check spring (head was destroyed on old one) Replaced bobbin basket and tension spring. Latch opener was not adjusted correctly. Adjusted tension release correctly. There as surely some things I didn't list that I'll remember later, but you can see why a novice would have a tough time, though Mia was a real trooper! Regards, Eric

I gave Mia the option of shipping her machine head to me rather than throwing it out the window. As this thread progressed, I could tell her machine had been "tinkered" with beyond reason. I've spent about 3 hours with it in my shop at the factory and the history unfolded itself. She has given me permission to share the results here in the machine forum in hopes that we can encourage and educate. I'll be starting a new thread with numerous photos to try and explain the process. To end this thread on a positive note for Mia, I'm posting a couple results pics for her. Everyones input has been great and many things mentioned were right on the money. It's just really hard sometimes with complex issues to fix a machine. I seem to recall a post by Wiz earlier about it's often best to leave a machine alone to do what it was designed to do. That's why many folks here have more than one machine. That was definately the case with Mia's machine. Keep in mind she got the machine in the condition it was in. Hopefully this can also help those out shopping for used machines. Regards, Eric

Hey Jason. Welcome! You didn't mention if your machine was new or used. If it's new (or used and been sitting for a while), it's going to take some time for the oil to make its way through the maze of wicks in your machine. The manual is correct about the oiling adjustment screw. I know it seems backwards, but it's not. The nice thing about wick systems is they aren't dependant on speed. You can sew like a turtle and things will still get oil. I'd give it some time and use. The vibration seems to help with the oil saturating all the wicks. The hook is about at the end of the line. I've attached a pic of the hook and where you should place a few drops now and again regardless of where your adjustment screw is set. The oil splatter you speak of is dependant on the constant speed of the machine. I run my verticle hook Juki's at 3600 stitches per minute, some higher. If you open the screw up a lot, you'll find oil in the next county. The wick system in you machine is desireable for the design. The Juki 5410's have a pump that only pushes oil to the top shaft above 2000 spm. There's also an issue with the oil supply tube actually rubbing against the pump shaft, cutting the supply altogether. Not the case with your machine. As long as your reservoir is kept full and your adjustment screw is open, use your machine. I would supplement the wick system with a few drops now and again where I've indicated. Verticle hook machines will always seize up first where the hook rotates around the bobbin case. If that happens, you'll know it. It's easily remedied by a few drops of oil where I've indicated and rotating your handwheel back and forth. Have fun! Regards, Eric

Yes, I set the hook so it hits the needle, then push it clear of the hook with the guard. This accounts for the deflection of the needle. I do suspect your needle bar height is wrong as well as the hook timing. Video will be available soon! Regards, Eric

You are correct my friend. I have spent 33 years working on industrial machines and some days I feel like I just started. There are so many variables. The Singer 211's are really decent machines. The verticle hooks will handle a lot of wear and tear in the bobbin races. The sealed bearing that the hook shaft rotates in rarely fails. Since the latch opener is driven off an eccentric cam, it too is pretty consistant. Where novice mechanics run into problems is really understanding that simply setting the hook point to the needle isn't enough if there's an underlying adjustment. The order of adjustments I posted earlier is a guidline I've used for years. If your belt timing is off one tooth, the machine will not run smooth. I've seen a lot of machines set wrong because folks simply look at the hook timing. There are many times the hook timing has to be advanced (higher into the scarf) or retarded (lower into the scarf). The verticle hook arrangement makes this adjustment easier to see. As for the manual, they don't mention when sewing heavier goods that the needle normaly deflects away from the hook. This changes with speed also. I set all 211's to have the hook point actually touch the needle. Then I adjust the needle guard to push the needle away from the hook point to protect it. What you end up with is since the needle is going to deflect anyway I adjust the hook saddle and hook farther left towards the deflecting needle. When sewing heavier materials, this places the hook point tight into the scarf of the needle in the deflected position and thread breakage and skipping are eliminated. The hook point is always protected and good stitches are formed under all conditions. If you don't do this, the needle deflects and the hook point hits the thread, eventually breaking it. That's the only way these machines will work 8 hours a day with very little machine down time. This is just one example of seemingly endless issues that have to be worked through. The photo attached describes the relationship between the needle, hook, and guard. The guard is made of spring steel and can be bent many times with a flat screwdriver being careful not to nick it. In the video I'm making, I'll take a lot of time on this setting. I've already taken some video, I hope to work on the editing in the coming week. Regards, Eric

I buy that belting in big spools. It's nice because if I need an odd belt size, I just make it. What you can't see is that on the inside of the belt is a grove that the connector sits in so it doesn't go "click-click" with every rotation. I use the same connectors for the 5/16" round leather belts I still use as well. I do have polyethelyne round belting, but I actually prefer the leather. Regards, Eric

Here's a couple pics for those that like diy projects. This is a speed reducer I built from stuff laying around the shop. I needed it for a Singer 300W chainstitch machine to sew through up to 6 layers of 4oz suede for welding jackets. I've used variations of reducers over the years for specific tasks. At some point, I'll remove it and use it on another machine as needed. If anyone's interested, I'll post a more detailed description on building a speed reducer. I also equipped this machine with needle coolers and silicone thread lubricators for both the needle threads and looper threads. This allows for sewing longer seams without thread breakage from heat, but that's for a different thread.(<pun) Regards, Eric

You can also do what I do with the thread we use for jeans. I soak the cones in silicone overnight, completely sumerging them. I then let them air out a bit (a few hours) before putting them in use. I also buy the spray cans when I don't want a complete saturation. I buy my silicone in gallons from Universal Sewing Supply. For the chainstitch machines I'm sewing leather with, I do use the magnetic lube boxes AFTER the thread has passed through the tension discs. Makes the tension more consistant with the Kevlar thread. Regards, Eric

Rather than try and answer each of your questions, I'm hoping to simply shed some light on the difference between hobby machines and industrial machines based on their design and application and as a result you'll find why you're having difficulty. If I bounce around a bit, forgive me, it's my style. I've also got 33 years in textile manufacturing as a mechanic, industrial engineer (setting piece rates using time and motion studies and figuring the best methods and sequence of construction) and factory manager. I'm currently the head mechanic for a private and government contractor. I have extensive experience on all classes of machinery. I guess I'll just begin and with luck you'll find some useful information. If not, my typing can always use work...heh The main reason you can't find an industrial machine that will do multiple functions is because they simply don't exist. Sure, you'll find home machines with changeable functions, but that's not how things are put together in factories. We use specific machines designed to do one thing very well 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week as fast as possible. One of the products we are making is a basic 5 pocket denim jean. It goes through about 30 different seperate operations. We are actually using the Juki 1541 for several different operations (I have about 40 or so of those). In addition we use the following: Pegasus 600 series coverstitch AC pocket press Singer 261 2 needle chainstitch Union Special 35800 off the arm 2 needle chainstitch Consew 327 RB 2 needle lockstitch Brother 800 series 2 needle lockstitch Union Special 56400Z coverstitch Union Special 39500 4 thread overlock Union Special 39800 5 thread overlock Union Special 63900 Cylinger jeans hemmer Singer 300W 2 needle chainstitch flatbed Singer 300W 2 needle chainstitch cylinder waistband machine Juki 980 heavy bartack Juki 984 heavy bartack Singer 269W bartack GMS jeans rivet machine Reece 101 keyhole buttonhole machine Stimpson air driven button setter I probably missed a few. That's just to produce one style. All total, we have about 400 machines. Now that's not to say we can't do some different things with the same machine. For example. I can take my Consew 327 and change the gauge set down to 3/16" up to I think 1 1/4". For making tactical gear which uses a lot of sewn on 3/4" Velcro, I use a 327 with a 5/8" gauge set to sew down both edges at once. Twice as efficient than using a single needle machine. We then secure the ends using a bartack machine set to 3/4". I can change the gauge set which includes the presser foot, throat plate, feed dawgs thread guides and needle holder, re-time both hooks in about 45 minutes. It's not efficent to do this multiple times a day, so I have 10 of those machines set to various gauge sizes so I do minimum changing. Another good example is the Union Special 39500 4 thread overlock machine. These are in my opinion the finest serger ever produced. They are however not very friendly if you're not a mechanic or have one available. They will sew a single ply of tricot using a size 10 needle up to 3/8" woven fabric with a size 22 needle. However, every 3-4 needle sizes the lower looper guards will both have to be reset for best results. They are differential feed which means there are a front set of feed dawgs and a rear set. The rear set move farther than the front for each stitch formation. They stretch the material being sewn in order to produce a perfectly flat seam. We get the most versatility out of each machine we have. However, you'll never get a chain stitch machine to be a lockstitch machine or a serger to be a buttonhole machine. Everything is task specific. The closest thing you'll find is a newer Brother zig-zag that will do multiple stitches. It's computerized with all the bells and whistles. We use it to do a 3 step zig-zag to set split deer hide to Lycra equestrian britches. I had a control board go out last week in one. $1100. We have over the years helped many folks start businesses by doing samples using our industrial machines and all of our engineering experience. I can spot things made on home machines and "heavy" home machines a mile away. There is no substitution or short cut to making quality products. If you take a prototype and present it as a marketable product, it better be well made or it will fail. I've seen it over and over. All industrial machines need adjustment and repair. If a salesman tells you different, they are simply lying. The heavier the machine, the more task specific they get. Find a reputable dealer, who'll give you support, there are several of the sponsors here for example. Since you posted on the forum here, you'll also get a bit of seasoned advice from me. Keep your designs simple as well as your machines. Fancy stitching won't make up for a poorly constructed or engineered product. For the leather you'll find as much wisdom and experience on this site than anywhere I've seen on the web. I have the utmost respect for the leather workers here. They are a virtual gold mine of information. My .02 Regards, Eric

The latch opener adjustment is critical, as is the smoothness of the thread path. That adjustment is the last that I make after making sure the rest of the machine is timed correctly, including the setting of the hook. Here's an outline of the order I set one of these machines and checks I go through. It's also the outline in a series of videos I'm working on. 1) Time top and bottom shafts. 2) Set needle bar height. 3) Set hook timing (rotational) 4) Set hook distance to needle (left-right adjustment) 5) Adjust needle guard on hook (using mid-range needle) If I plan to use needles ranging from 110/18 thru 140/22, I use a size 125/20 6) Set feed dawg height 7) Set latch opener 8) Set stitch length 9) Adjust tension 10) Adjust feed pressure In the process of making these adjustments, I verify the thread path integrity. There are chronic areas that develope issues. I'll be covering all of these. If it's a machine I haven't worked on before, I'll remove the hook before I set it, and inspect it, not for the novice. You can check a good portion of it while still in the machine. You can see that adjusting the latch opener is down on the list a ways. You can set it first, but if you can't verify everything before it, your machine won't settle down. Here's a paragraph on the latch opener adjust along with picture. They are from the other thread I spoke of. Keep in mind, you may still have other issues: After you get the hook and needle timed, you need to check your latch opener adjustment. It's the flat curve piece in the picture that contacts the bobbin basket. As your hook carries the needle thread around the hook, this latch opener pulls the little tab that fits into the throat plate open to allow the thread to slip through. You want it just enough to allow the thread to pass. If you open the gap too far, you'll bring the tab over and contact the opposite side or your throat plate. I check this setting with fabric as the machine is forming stitches. Regards, Eric

Bump for Mia.

Normaly, if your top tension is too loose or your bottom tension too tight, you'll get loops on the bottom. However, if your latch opener isn't set to open far enough, a loop will form and not get pulled up. The hook comes around and catches the newly formed loop as well as the previous one. The snap is the previous loop being broken. On occasion, you'll see a broken stitch yet the machine continues to sew. This happens on vertical hook machines when the needle bar is too low (timing issue), the hook timing is advanced (timing issue) or the latch opener isn't set correctly. It can also happen on thicker material even though it sews fine on thinner. You can also move up a needle size after adjusting your tension. A larger needle will allow a portion of the loop to slip back up the groove in the needle. This is especially true of bonded nylon where excessively large loops are an issue. Skipped stitches can also result as a loop that's too big tends to collapse sideways and get missed by the hook. If that happens, you'll get a skipped stitch and sometimes a broken one right after it. The one nice thing about verticle hooks is that you can put some scrap under the foot and open the cover and actually see what may be happening without standing on your head. I decribe the latch opener adjustment in that really long and often boring thread that is still fairly close at hand. Perhaps I'll give it a bump. Regards, Eric

The shoemaker is correct. That's a hole puncher. A really cool, old, hole puncher. Regards, Eric