Big Sioux Saddlery

That is a way Tinker, but IMO if the keeper is that loose, the end result will likely be a piss-poor sloppy-fitting keeper. In equine equipment, nobody wants a keeper so tight that you need a toolbox with to change an adjustment, but on the other hand, you want it snug enough that you wouldn't be able to get 2 or 3 more straps of the same width/thickness through. Which is what you'd get doing it that way. Not ripping on you personally, because I've heard of the same method, and seen the results. If you want neat work, you won't do it that way.

The English tack in your attached picture is more than likely sewn entirely by hand. There is no machine that can sew both sides of the keeper in. One side, yes, but the second side is often done as Dwight mentions above. On most common western tack, the second side of the keeper is nailed or stapled in. Only on the higher end stuff can you afford to hand sew if making to sell.

John, here are a few pictures. I had a time getting the camera to focus well enough to get a good picture. The main thing is like I said earlier, as tight a fit on the needle as possible while still allowing it to slide freely. The smaller the needle diameter, the more important this is, because they will deflect, bend and break easier than the larger diameter needles. I've used some original size 6 needles and bushings on this machine, sewing 9 to the inch. The rest of the machine has to be pretty tight to do that. I think the size 4 needles were the most common size used, probably equivalent to the #200 now, or possible the #230. It's REALLY hard to find any size 4 original needles. The larger sizes show up fairly often.

I would not re-use the tree with the idea that the saddle will be used, because there likely isn't a horse alive that it will fit. If you are wanting to restore it for a display piece, you could send the tree to a tree maker to be re-rawhided. You could have it fiberglassed, but it wouldn't be very period-correct.

John, I will try to get some pics today. I have had bushings made by machine shops and I think they've used "drill jig bushings"?? You want them to fit as tightly as possible while still allowing the needle to move through up and down. Any side to side wiggle is too much, but unfortunately, the modern needle/bushing combinations leave something to be desired. I've had some made that I had to put the needle in a vise and tap the bushing on, and once it's on, it won't come off, but still moves freely on the needle. That is as good a fit as one can hope for until someone comes up with better needles.

What you are seeing is old finish that remains in the tooling cuts. The rest has likely been cleaned off. I've seen it many times, it looks like a mixture of dirt and mold, but it's really bits of old finish. It's nasty to get it all out of the cuts, and I've tried everything I've heard of. I basically end up digging the little bits out of the cuts with the pointed end of a modeling tool or something similar. Or I make my teenage son do it:-) It's hours of work, but the saddle may still be worth buying. Or I should say it is restorable to a certain point (it will never look like new again) whether the saddle is worth what they're asking is another question altogether.

The bells in the picture are the old ones that I cleaned and polished. I should have taken a "before" picture. The staple to join the slide loops is called a 5 x 15 staple and is made exactly for that: stapling slide loops.

Thunter9, I do a fair amount of this kind of work, replacing the leather strap on antique bells and cleaning and polishing the bells. I like to use Wickett and Craigs black harness leather (nothing against anything of Weaver's, it's just what I like to use for the bells). W & C has 2 or 3 different finishes of harness leather, but the kind I use for the bells is a drier leather that has a fantastic finish. Anything that's heavily stuffed will cause more corrosion from the brass, getting a lot of green waxy gunk building up around the bells. How do your bells attach? Some of the vintage bells were riveted in, and some were made with a loop for a pin as mentioned above. But your description of using the slide loops between bells is correct. I can't tell you how many times I've been working along and attached the next bell, forgetting to put the slide loop in first. Also, if you are making the strap to actually go around a horse's body or hang buckled to form a loop, as if going around a horse's body, you have to build it on a "curve". Meaning the bottom layer will be somewhat shorter than the top layer. If they are going to hang straight on a wall, then you don't have to worry about that. Are you planning to clean and polish the bells, or leave them as they are? I have requests to do both, although I hate putting new leather on dingy, tarnished old bells. The attached picture is of a set I did recently that I would love to keep. They looked pretty rough when they came in. I soaked them in vinegar, then got the worst of the gunk off with a brass wire wheel, then finally used a felt wheel to polish. I think I had about 6 minutes apiece in them at the wire and felt wheels.

Ho's regular Bridle is a fairly oily leather. I'm with Art above, both on using Bridle and Harness for a belt and the Lexol. I wouldn't use either the HO Bridle or Harness for a belt because they are both pretty firm leathers and will take a long time to break in. Comfort (or lack of) is going to be a factor. Lexol, I'm not a fan of the conditioner. It simply doesn't do anything. After a period of maybe 20 years of not using it I thought I'd give it another chance, for some saddles and items I didn't want darkened as much as oil will darken. It reaffirmed my original opinion. It just doesn't do enough to justify having it around. The Lexol cleaner is good stuff though. If you do use either leather for your belt project, unless it is seeing extreme hard use under adverse conditions, I wouldn't think it will need conditioning for a long time, maybe a couple years or more.

I've never gotten any "bad" HO strap from Weaver, in fact I just got a side of 10/11 that I think is superb. Now, I don't use nearly as much of the strap as I do harness and skirting, so it could be that I've just gotten lucky. Overall, I've got to say I've been pleased with Weaver and I've been buying from them for 23-24 years. Yeah, I've gotten some crap, I've been sent the wrong leather, etc, but I've gotten crap straight from the tanneries also. The greatest thing about Weaver's mix-n-match pricing, is that it applies to your whole order now. If you buy $1000 worth of anything, hardware, thread, leather, cow bells, whatever (not sure it applies to machinery, probably not) you get their best pricing tier. And it doesn't take all that much to make a thousand bucks worth of supplies anymore. Btw, you were asking about the W & C drum dyed earlier in another post. I've been using some that I got last month and I'm loving it. So honestly, buying leather is just exactly what it's always been: a crap shoot:-)

Oops, entered this before I saw your response: I guess you use a lot of strap, so at one side, all weights are $9.03 as listed in catalog. At five to 9 sides, lighter weights are $8.50, heavier weights are $8.65. At ten sides or more, lighter weights are $7.95 and heavier weights are $8.10. More than once, I've seen Weaver equal to or even a bit less than HO's direct price. What I like about Weaver (and there are things I DON"T like about them) is that the leather is usually in stock for immediate shipment, and the ten side price is a mix-n-match deal; ten sides any type, any weight of any of the leathers they carry, OR if you exceed a $1000 on your order, you automatically get their best price. Now, most of their leather is TR grade, and I believe the price from HO you quoted above is "A" grade. I like Weaver's pricing structure for this reason: At any given time I stock 50-75 sides of the most common leathers used in the equine trades. Three colors of harness in several weights, three colors of skirting in several weights, three types of latigo, in different weights, two or three colors of English bridle in assorted weights, misc strap, misc chap. I don't have to get quite as much money tied up in inventory if I can mix and match my leather purchases. And of course, there's the storage issue, who ever has enough room???

What weight and what type of leather JLS?

I think you're looking at the Weaver retail site, JLS.

Tinker you said it better than I could have! I don't know why folks in this trade find it so hard to understand or accept. It's how every other industry in the world operates. Food industry, auto industry, construction, you name it, the list goes on and on.

The cut edge of the leather looks just exactly like HO drum dyed black harness to me. Sides will vary with the degree to which the dye penetrates. The reason the flesh side looks like that is it is full thickness. . . no splitting. Maybe not fleshed as well as it could have been, but like Tinker said above, the cut edge looks like good, dense, firm leather. The denser the fibers, the harder time the dye will have getting through. Raggy, loose fibered stuff absorbs the dye pretty readily. Depends on what you use it for, but judging from the pics, it'd sure work for me. But that has to be your call

Much of Weaver's leather that is not labeled HO is from Chahin, a Mexican tannery. I've not bought the blanks from Weaver, but I've bought sides, and there is no imported leather from Mexico or South America that equals domestically tanned leather. I would ask before I order. W & C is a softer leather than HO and will likely have a little more stretch and the W & C gets a wrinkled and "worn" or raggy look sooner than the HO, but seems to last forever despite that. As far as making the belt slightly tighter to accommodate stretching, I never do. You shouldn't get that much stretch out of it that it would make a difference; it's more the belt conforming to the wearer's shape than anything, at least if the strap is cut from good stuff. To OldNSlow, I guess I'm older and slower than you, because I'm still trying to figure out exactly what you said above, Maybe after another 3 or 4 cups of coffee I'll figure it out. Late night, too little sleep, too many nights in a row. Anyway, all I was saying was if you qualify as a business, you should expect wholesale status. If not, then you shouldn't. it works the same in any other industry. Quantity purchases gets you better prices. Weaver and others like them are just adhering to a standard practice in about any trade you want to pick. I just built a house; I picked materials up at a wholesale place, but I sure as heck didn't get to purchase it directly from them.

Weaver has a retail site on-line for the non-wholesale customers. The reason for the hoops to jump through for the wholesale account, is that if you are not in business, then you should not be buying wholesale. That's the (well, one) difference between professional and hobby. Imo, it has long been way too easy for any Tom, Dick and Harry to buy wholesale in this industry. If you spend the bucks to get established as a business and jump through all the hoops and BS that we as businesses have to do, take the leap and quit your day-job to go full time knowing you might well fall on your ass, then you are entitled to wholesale status. If you are doing a bit of hobby work for cash under the table after your regular job, then you are not entitled to wholesale status. I know I might step on some toes here and I mean no disrespect to anyone in particular nor to those doing this as a hobby; everyone starts out pretty much the same way, and I was no exception. But it gripes me that folks who are not full time in this business, not collecting and turning in sales tax, not reporting the income on their 1040, expect wholesale treatment.

I often "cheat" on lighter stuff, say 3/8" or less, that will receive heavy use by using a 346 with a #200 needle. A smaller needle hole always looks better, so if you can get by with it, go ahead and do it. If you're making knife sheaths, I would think it would be no problem. On heavier stuff, the modern needles will bind the thread where it goes through the needle bushing guide and snap it off. Take a dremel with a cut-off disc and extend the groove in the needle another 1/4" or so up the needle. If you have old stock needles, compare them to the modern ones. You'll see what I mean. One warning on these Landis 1's: don't try to get too much under the foot in one bite. These machines will sew close to an inch of leather, but if you have the presser foot spring tightened down and try to get that inch under the foot in one lift, you're likely to break the flat spring that holds the presser foot bar. Instead, get some pieces of scrap, and "step up" to the height you want to sew, letting the lifting dog grab a new spot on the bar each time. I broke a flat spring last summer for the first time ever, after sewing on a Landis 1 for 25 years! I hope this isn't all too overwhelming, but it's mostly stuff I've learned by experience, and very little advice given by anyone who knew these machines. A lot of it is mentioned in the book, but until I actually sewed and saw for myself, I couldn't visualize what the book was talking about.

What size needle and thread combination are you using? On the Landis 1's I normally use a size smaller on the bottom. With the modern needle numbering system, I typically use a #230 needle with a 346 top, 277 bottom. A #200 needle and 277 top and 207 bottom IF your bobbin will hold tension on that light of a thread. Which takes us to the next step: make SURE you have enough tension on your bobbin thread. You should need to use a pretty firm pull to pull thread from tension off the bobbin. You should barely, if at all, be able to pull any thread from tension with just your hand with the shuttle all the way to one side or the other. Oftentimes, there will be a groove worn in the tension spring on the shuttle, which is why I said above "IF your bobbin will hold tension on that light of a thread." If you don't have enough tension on the bottom, you will never get a nice tight stitch. So, assuming you've got the bottom tight, set your cam on your takeup lever right about in the center for normal work, up to about 3/8". For lighter stuff, move the cam to the left, for heavier, move it to the right. Make sure when the locking lever comes down on the tension plates, that you can't pull ANY thread through them. If there are grooves worn in the top tension plates, you will not get a nice stitch. Make sure you lifting dog isn't slipping on the presser foot bar, and make sure your presser foot is holding your work down. The machine will not feed evenly if it is not tight. Make sure the presser foot is lifting when it's supposed to, otherwise, it'll force your work back ahead (if that makes sense) as it feeds through. I periodically spray a little contact cleaner on the presser foot bar where the lifting dog grabs on it to get rid of oil that will cause it to slip. I've seen the bar worn so badly that the dog won't grab, making it necessary to rebuild the bar. There are lots of other spots to wear that will affect how the machine sews, but compared to other machines, this one will tolerate a lot more wear and poor adjustment and still sew than most others. What has earned this machine a bad rap with some people, as being a crude machine that does poor looking work, is that these people have been sewing on machines that are totally worn out, with wrong thread and needle combinations, and the machine still sews. The attached photo will prove all those naysayers wrong. This harness, and countless others, was sewn completely on a Landis 1, 9 to the inch, with original old stock #5 or 6 needles. They will sew as well as any made if set up correctly. Another very important thing: the needle guide bushing must fit the needle very snugly in order to do nice work. If it's too loose, it allows too much deflection in the needle, which as you know is quite long at over 3" long. Original old stock needles and bushings allows for a much nicer job than the modern needles available to us. But they are difficult to impossible to find. There are a bunch more little tricks and tips, but see if this doesn't get you headed in the right direction. Good luck!

What Pcox said above about winding the bobbin, did it that way for years until I got a bobbin winder. Now I have two, but I don't want to sell either one:-) For a couple years, I worked out of a shop that had a metal turning lathe sitting unused, and that worked very well for winding the bobbins. Just chuck it in and go. And make sure your bobbin is wound tight and even; this is very important to the machine sewing consistently. Also, set your bobbin tension so that there is a pretty good pull. That makes a tighter stitch.

Looks very much to me like what happens when the thread hangs up on the spool, as someone already mentioned above. Some spools never bother, some are a problem from start to finish. They can start hanging up part way through a spool when they have not been a problem previously. Likewise, some thread tends to kink coming off the spool; the longer you go without pulling the thread out of the machine and getting the kinks out, the worse it gets. Some old machines cam with a factory thread rack where the spool sat horizontally and turned as the thread came off it, avoiding the kinking problem. Again, some spools give no problem, others are a problem to the end.

Yes Bruce, that is it. It doesn't look to be worn badly from the picture. You can pull it right out of the machine once you have I disassembled to the point that you have it now. If there is a deep groove worn in that part from the needle, it should be filled back in. Read in the manual, but the needle should come up against that piece when it descends, so it holds the thread tight against the needle to make the loop on the back side for the shuttle. It is adjusted by means of a set screw on the front. You'll see where it could be pushed into the shuttle race if adjusted too far forward.

Bruce, have you gotten it sewing yet? I have somewhat of a love affair with the old Landis 1's. I've sewn on one for nearly 25 years, and even though I have now a number of other heavy stitchers that I use, I still come back to the 1 for some things. It has it's limitations, as ALL machines do, but overall, if set up right, they do a hell of a good job. They are very simple to troubleshoot. If you have problems getting yours to sew I can try to help. If the machine is still not picking up the bottom thread, you may need to adjust the loop former(?), not sure if that's the correct name for it, but its a little wedge shaped thing under the needle plate that holds the thread tight against the needle as it descends in order to make a loop for the shuttle to pass through. Or it might even be missing. Sometimes that little part gets worn so badly that it needs rebuilding. It's probably the first place to wear on the Landis 1's. I would take the needle plate off and inspect this part for wear before you try to adjust it, because if it's worn badly, you will end up actually adjusting it and/or the needle out into the shuttle race which is NOT a good scenario! Good luck to you.

"On that note - Anyone actually bought that much Neatsfoot oil at once?" Several times. Dipping harness uses a lot of oil.

I don't know how to cut up a horsehide, but the bosal looks very good, especially considering it's your first one. Keep up the good work.