Big Sioux Saddlery

You asked, we're telling you how we see it. My clicker paid for itself in time it saves me, increased production and uniformity of parts. If I had wanted it to pay for itself in custom clicking, I'd still be waiting, and I've owned it about ten years. That's how it is around here. And for a direct answer to your original question, no I would not utilize the service; that's the reason I bought the clicker, so I wouldn't have to.

The reason I bought my clicker is so I wouldn't have to pay someone else to cut my parts. If someone has their own dies, chances are they're going to have a clicker of some sort as well. A big advantage of having a clicker and dies is to use up scrap on small items. Freight would eat the profits if someone had to send you their scrap, pay you $60 an hour to click, and then pay freight back. You may get some local business from hobby people that don't want to or can't make the investment of a clicker and dies, but I'd think pretty much anyone that would be producing in quantities that would justify a die would own their own clicker. Not saying it couldn't work for you, I just wouldn't count on it paying for your clicker very quickly. Google about any die-cut blanks you can think of, and there are thousands of folks like yourself hoping to make their clicker pay for itself. I think what you will run into more often is someone wanting you to pay to have a die made from their pattern, click a few pieces for them, and then "see ya!" If I sound cynical, it may be because I've been there and done that! But good luck to you!

Tried to PM, msg rejected. I'd take the lining leathers and the Chahin bridle in addition to the W & C if you still have all of them. Thank you! I won't check back here until tonight a I don't have a smart phone.

If you still have this I'll do the $125 plus freight.

I called the folks at Shop Talk a few years ago to ask this very question, thinking they might know of something. The closest they could find was for a shoe repair shop. Just going by the description, it didn't even come close to what I envisioned. I worked for a short time at a vet clinic and we used a program called Cornerstone structured specifically for the veterinary industry, and a program like that, only for a saddle shop would fit my needs perfectly. As mentioned above though, consistency and accuracy is the key, and I do wonder if I would have the self discipline to enter everything when it needs to be entered. I think we have such a unique trade, and not enough of us in numbers, to make it worthwhile for anyone coming up with a complete program tailored to our industry that could be marketed at an affordable price.

Thank you CW! I literally have spent most of my 48 years striving for perfection in building harness. I'm still not there and doubt I ever will be, but at least I'm not ashamed to show my work anymore.

Another thing, and I don't know if it's mentioned in the Leathercrafter's Journal article, but make sure you saddle soap the leather well before you pull it through the rounder. It really makes a difference. And moisture content is critical throughout the entire process.

Here are a few pics I had saved on my computer. There is a set of sidecheck rounds at the shop made from Hermann Oak Rosewood harness leather that are too cool, but I don't have any pictures of them. None of these pictures really shows the sewing channel very well. if you'd like, I can try to get more and better pics tomorrow. I have 2 sets of winker braces in the molds overnight that I made today and will be ready tomorrow; the last picture shows the rounded portion of the braces on a bridle I made a few weeks ago. I was fascinated by the rounded bridle sidechecks on Grandpa's old work harness when I was a child, and spent years trying to figure out how to make them. It was a long process of trial and error, and I really didn't figure it out completely until one day maybe 8 years ago, I spent an entire day doing nothing but making rounds. I experimented with different leather, splitting to different thicknesses, thinner or thicker fillers, etc. One of the trickiest parts is turning the lap smoothly back into the round and splicing it with the filler so as to leave a perfectly even transition. Take your time with every step until your satisfied that it's perfect, because the success of each subsequent step is dependent on the previous one (like so many other things in leatherwork--and life). Getting it split to the right thickness is also very important. There are few things more gratifying to me than a finished round, perfectly even and smooth. And , NO, after all these years, they still don't all turn out that way! I'd probably get fired the first day if I worked at Freedman's or some other prestigious shop.

I have probably a dozen round and head knives, but just one that I use most of the time. I keep a clicker knife or two close by but I cut and skive nearly everything with my round knife. I just can't get the hang of anything else. The secret of mastering the use of a round knife is it has to be scary sharp, beyond what I thought was sharp when starting out doing leatherwork, and be made of good steel. Poor steel drags even if it's sharp. Once I got a good one, I never looked back. I agree with Dirtclod on the size. Too big of a knife is awkward to handle.

Propane bottle torch is on or near my bench most of the time. Surprising how often it comes in handy:-)

Wow, first of all what you are making is cool. Second, you did a very good job forming the leather the way you've been doing it. It's similar to covering the swells on a western saddle, and it takes time and patience and just the right cut of leather. In answer to your question, yes I think what you are envisioning would work. I have done that very thing for projects that have required molding, although to a lesser extent than what your project requires. Specifically, small case goods, like pliers and knife pouches. As I've gotten older, and more arthritic, I look for ways to reduce hand work, and if I am going to make more than one like item, I make a form, mold, die, etc. Moisture content is every bit as important, maybe more so, that when forming by hand. Round and sand the edges of the hole in your plywood form carefully, because they will mar your leather if left sharp. I also liberally apply saddle soap to the leather right before I press it.Good luck!

I'm going to disagree with some other comments in that a power washer can and will take the grain off good leather, in fact, new leather. If you get close enough with enough pressure, you can create roughout from smooth grain leather. I know this from experience:-) The best cleaner I've ever used, and this is a recent discovery for me, is Dick Sherer's recipe. For years I thought it just sounded like a bad idea because of the amount of ammonia, but it doesn't leave the leather with a rough, harsh feel like Dawn dish soap, what is what I'd resorted to in the past when all else would fail on something REALLY nasty. It beats Lexol Cleaner hands down, which has been my cleanser of choice for many years. Go to Dick's website and it's listed there somewhere. I also find, with what comes through my shop, that most people around here definitely don't over-oil their stuff. If they oil at all, they put one little application on with a rag and think they oiled it. For oil to do what it's intended to so, which is lubricate the fibers and repel moisture, equine equipment that has been left dry for a long time needs several liberal applications. You don't want the leather left with an oily feel on the surface when you're done, and you definitely don't want to soak the leather for hours or overnight like some folks do, but at least in my experience, most people under-apply rather than over-apply. The quality of the leather makes a huge difference also. Inferior leathers will bleed oil back out and have a slick oily surface when finished, whereas better leathers will absorb what they need with liberal but reasonable application and when finished, will not have that oily residue on the surface. I will often repeat the cleaning process AFTER oiling to get rid of the surface residue. Heavy using tack that is dipped once a year will long outlast tack that is never or only occasionally lightly wiped with an oily cloth or a worthless "conditioner". At least that's what I've seen over the last 30 years. I guess I should mention also that all oils are not created equal. Do not ever use the $8 a gallon crap that smells like diesel fuel. Use a reputable brand of pure neatsfoot, or, what I use almost exclusively for equine equipment is Sheps harness oil. Weaver sells it, and it is a high percentage of neatsfoot with something added to repel rats and mice. It smells a little like fish oil, but is not unpleasant. It's not cheap but it's good stuff. I have yet to use Black Rock conditioner, but from what I've seen, I do think it is a superior product and I plan to get some. I'm a sucker for trying new conditioners, because I have yet to find one that does everything it promises to do and lives up to what I think a conditioner should do. Good luck to you with your saddle!

Al Stohlman's book on handsewing has some instruction on sewing "rounds". I also think Bruce Johnson has a tutorial on here on how to do it. As for leather, natural strap works well due to it's ability to be easily cased, molded and burnished. I've also used harness, bridle and English Bridle with good results. Those leathers will require a little more time in water, (very warm water works best) due to the waxes and tallows. Leather cut from the lower center of the hide works well, or the shoulder, if there are minimal wrinkles, for rounding. Avoid leather cut from the prime butt area. It will typically be too dense and hard and tends to crack during the rounding process. There are a few tools that make the process much easier. Round breakers, which go on the end of a creasing machine, greatly expedite the process. Also, a rounder to pull the finished piece through is almost imperative. Bruce Johnson sells them, as well as a number of other places. A rein trimmer hand tool is used to trim off the filler after sewing. A heavy edger is needed to edge the outside edges of the round. Rounds may be machine or hand sewn, with either linen or synthetic thread. With either method, the traditional way is to sew in a channel so as to hide the stitches in the finished product. Also, coarser stitches are typically used; 4 to the inch is common, but only if you hide them. Making rounds is one of my favorite jobs, but it's tough to get paid for the time required to do it correctly. Best of luck to you!

What Dwight said: "The cutting will make or break your project.. . ." I've said that very thing for years, and it applies to EVERY project. If the cutting is poor, there is no step in the process that can make it better. Practice, practice, practice, with a GOOD knife.

Top notch work! Not even one teeny, tiny imperfection visible. No room for error when cutting strings this fine!

Okay folks here are the goodies:-) First picture shows the special bench machines and tools used to make the blinds, cheeks and braces, besides all the normal leatherworking tools and machinery not shown. Top left is what I believe is called a forming box, with a loop iron in it. It is used to form up the cheek/blind/box loop assembly around the loop iron, so it may be tacked up to either staple or sew. Center top the vise-looking thing is a cheek press, used to press the box loop from all sides once it is assembled. The cheek assembly may be either stapled or hand sewn together. The arched piece on the cheek press raises up and sits on top of the blind and then it is tightened to press the sides of the loop. The whole thing is put in a press and pressed from the top as well. Two rounders are shown below the cheek press. I use them both. Below them are the two pieces of a winker brace mold. The "legs", for lack of a better word, are first rounded (which is a whole other process and explanation in and of itself) using the round breakers shown below the winker brace mold. The breakers fit on the end of a creasing machine. After filling and sewing the rounds, they are trimmed and pulled through the rounders, then pressed in the mold until dry. They should then retain their shape for the life of the bridle IF care is used in handling and storing the bridle. The braces are generally the weakest part of the bridle and first thing to need repair. They are prone to abuse both by horse and handler. A separate winker brace mold is needed for every different size bridle, i.e. pony, light horse, draft. Moving on, to the left of the round breakers is a blind mold, and just like the name implies, is used to give the blinds a cupped shape. Every size and style of blind also requires a different mold. Making and pressing the blinds is generally the first step in building a bridle, and is something that can be made up ahead of time to have on hand. Then on the very left are the embossing plates. The center one is used on the face of the box loop, and the corrugated plates to each side are used on the sides of the loop. Besides giving the loop a decorative appearance, pressing a design into the loops also give the loop rigidity and durability. These plates are used with the cheek press described above. This is a very, very simplified description of the process, and not necessarily in sequential order. Second picture shows my collection of embossing plates. I wasn't even sure how many I had until today. Quite a few of them I recently bought on Ebay from a guy named Henry from Ontario:-) At the top left is a set of 16 of the diamond spearpoint pattern (I think) that is available from Aaron Martin as a reproduction. Those I bought at least 20 years ago. The brass is not near the quality as in the old dies, nor is the crispness and clarity of the impressions. About a dozen of the others are plates that I bought as singles or twos and threes through the years here and there. Toward the lower right hand corner of the picture are the side plates, used to press the sides of the box loops. I had a machine shop make these about 15 years ago, and I really wish I'd had them made out of stainless steel. Live and learn. You really have to be careful not to mar the brass. I have some old steel side plates, but regular steel stains russet leather, which was the reason I used brass. I think stainless would not stain the russet and be much more durable than the brass. So there ya have it folks. Just a few of my toys. When most women go on a shopping rampage, they buy shoes and purses and clothes. I buy leatherworking equipment. I dream about it at night. It is a fantasy of mine to walk into a warehouse full of early 1900's harness-making equipment that has been untouched for the last 80 years. I am always on the lookout for these special harness bench machines and tools. I would love to find a crupper stuffer and molds for making 6 at a time, but like all the rest of this stuff, they're pretty hard to find. I'm always interested in die patterns and molds I don't have, so if any of you out there have some of this stuff that you don't want or use, I'd be interested. Cheryl, I agree with you that I'm too cheap:-) But I live in the midwest and I believe it is absolutely the worst place in this country to try to sell high end equine equipment. I've weeded out a lot of people who only want cheap, but there just isn't enough affluence among the equine-owning population here to go around. The repair work is still my bread and butter and for that I can charge what I need to make a living, but the occasional custom harness or saddle is gravy, and I know I don't make on it what I should. I do believe I was born a hundred years too late. Thanks all for your kind comments. Sharon

I'll get some pics today Toot. You're absolutely right about not getting them at Walmart, and I tell people that too. It's a collection I've spent 35 years assembling and learning how to use, and the pieces have come from all corners of the country. The latest set of dies came from Ontario. They were listed on Ebay and I found out about them right here on the Forum! I love showing interested folks this equipment.

Thanks guys, and thank you Thor, it IS reasonable, although it can be difficult to convince people of that. Most folks just don't understand the hours involved in not only building the actual bridle, but in learning the processes, as it is not something you pick up in one or two quick easy lessons. It takes years of practice and a ton of special machinery and tools to do this work, and we should expect to be paid for our investment, just like any other trade. I can and do build higher priced stuff; these cheeks were assembled with buried staples. I'll hand sew them too, but then the price takes a BIG jump.

Thanks guys! My driving bridles start at $150, one like this with the box loops runs about $250. I could sure buy them cheaper wholesale, mark them up, and still re-sell them cheaper than that, but you are stuck with dedicated sizes then. I get the custom bridle orders for horses that the "off-the-shelf" stuff won't fit.

Here's a custom driving bridle I made last week. It is pretty plain as the custom bridles go, but it was the first time I'd used this pattern for the box loops and I thought it turned out nice. The fit was perfect; couldn't have gotten it any better. The curved crown really makes a nice bridle. Terrible background, I know, I just didn't have time to set up anything better. The blinds, box loops and winker braces were all made in-house and are 3 things I love to do. There is just something about putting the molds in the press and then taking them out and opening them up to see what you end up with. . .it's like opening a Christmas present when I was a little kid. I did cheat by machine sewing the rounds for the braces. Every once in awhile I'll set up a machine to sew rounds and do nothing but that for the whole day. I put them in a box and then when I need some, I've got 'em and I don't have to spend an hour getting a machine set up to sew just a couple.

Quite possibly coming that way on the 20th of this month. If you still have it then, I may be interested. Are you able to send pics to an email or phone possibly? Sorry I should have read the post better. I'll text you!

Look in Weaver's new 2015 catalog. Mine is at the shop and I'm not there yet so I can't say for sure, but it seems like they carry a new heavier chrome-tan leather this year, in a 7/8. Whether it has an oil-finish like you want, I'm not certain. You can look on-line now also, in case you don't have their catalog. Good luck

Weaver does carry Hermann Oak, but as I think someone mentioned above, only in TR grade. Honestly, I have gotten some really nice leather from Weaver, as well as some crap (which is basically the simplified description of TR), and I have also gotten some crap direct from Hermann Oak. Their hides do typically have less run-off in the shoulder and fewer wrinkles, as well as fewer cuts on the flesh side, which may be the biggest nemesis to a harness maker. Buying leather is always a crap-shoot, kind of like buying hay. Of all the hides processed, very few are perfect, or maybe none, so we have to take what's out there and make the best of it. Not trying to be quarrelsome regarding what NVLeatherworx said above, (for some reason I can't get my computer to quote) but I don't consider Weaver anywhere close to being on the same level as Tandy. Weaver is NOT a small supplier. OF course I haven't looked at a Tandy catalog in a few years, nor walked in one of their stores, but I do buy from Weaver at least once a month, sometimes 2-3 times a month, and it's rare that I have they don't have what I need in harness hardware. I'd hate to try to build harness using only Tandy as a supplier, but then it probably depends on the type of work a person does. But I digress, as far as Hermann Oak, I've only ever bought from Weaver or direct from HO. There may be better sources out there than Weaver that I don't know about.

I think Weaver is a big enough company that they aren't going to try to cheat you by sticking you with a 4/5 when you ordered a 8/9 and hoping you wouldn't notice. I would sooner expect that from a smaller company, but there are so many people that work at Weaver and each person is just doing their job. They might suck at their job, but I don't think anyone is out to cheat you in that way. You have to understand the qualities within a hide. A cow only has one butt, and the neck and shoulder is not going to be the same quality as the butt. Their term "strap side" refers more to the type of leather than if that particular hide is suited the whole length for a given type of strap. We harness makers run into this with every hide we cut; that's part of the job, evaluating each and every hide and deciding what type of parts would be suitable to cut from it, I'm not saying you don't have a legitimate gripe with Weaver, because I've had to call and complain and send leather back also. But I'm thinking MAYBE you need to reconsider your expectations for cutting your straps the total length of ANY hide. I receive very few hides that make the grade for cutting a full length strap which will remain unlined and used at it's full length, such as driving lines. I doubt if it's one in ten. I have just learned to adjust my expectations and use every hide as best I can. When I get one that I know I'll be able to cut lines from, I set it aside, and that's the ONLY thing that gets cut from that side until I run down far enough toward the belly to make it unsuitable for lines. It often means an increased cost to the consumer, because of increased waste factor, but that's just part of the job and part of life.

And that is EXACTLY why I will never let someone else cut leather that I am going to use. That shoulder/neck area could have been used for another project if left intact, now you have a whole bunch of straps that may not be good for anything. Not rippin' on ya, just the voice of experience speaking. Hides with good, usable shoulder areas, with no drop-off in weight and a minimum of wrinkles seems to nearly be a thing of the past. Try cutting driving lines from leather like you received (only harness leather of course). It's no wonder the synthetics have become popular. I've seen new old stock lines that were made back in the '30's and you can't tell the butt from the neck or the shoulder. Good, solid hide from one end to the other, and no wrinkles. I dream about getting leather like that.