Hidemechanic

Luke, looks like you and I went to the same school.GH P.S. I flunked the clenliness and organisation class,gh

HAA!!Haa!!HAAA!! Good one! GH

Elton, You've you've been crankin out some awful nice stuff this year. I'm glad you've been keepin busy. Here's a shot one I made back when that kind of work was still around here. Always good to see your stuff. GH

I wanted to respond to this back when it started but I got interupted with a job of all things and haven't been able to get on here. But I guess good information never goes out of date. I have a different twist on the stamped string. For most of the reasons mentioned above I don't use the string under my chin except in extreme situations. The rest of the time I leave it behind my head( behind ears). It loops below where my scull and neck meet. The slide can be tightened when needed for securety. Most hat warers will notice that if they ware their hat square on their head, the shape of the forehead helps to keep the hat secure to a degree and in light windy conditions you tilt the front of the brim into the wind your hat will have more securety(even withouta string). That with the string behind your head as mentioned gives you a pretty secure hat. I don't recall who I learned this from (probably and old trapper in my youth) but back in the early 70s when I was out with some buds in Montana, one of them gave me a hard time and said that was a stupid way to ware a hat. The conversation progressed to him trying to knock my hat off and he was unsuccessful. Later we were at the cabins in the mountains, in between riding trips, we were out in the meadow playing horse tag. That is basically chacing each other trying to grab each other's hats from bareback horses. Well no one could get my hat off. During the game it started raining, being late summer it was still warm and I had a straw hat. It softened up from the rain. One of the guys was determined to get my hat, when he grabbed it, the brim came appart and unravelled. Well he still didn't get my hat off but it wasn't much good without a brim. Good times. Anyway, I agree the string behind the head is not as secure as under the chin, but I would rather go back for my hat than get closelined with it in the woods. Very rarely have I lost a hat using this method. Cheers. GH

D. As your heart mends, may your soul swell with the gift your father has passed to you, that you will pass to your offspring and share with those around you. You have honored us in sharing your appreciation of such a great gift. GH

Traveller, either I can't find it or the post I'm looking for got lost some time ago but I though there was a conversation about breast collars and flank cinchas. There is arena work when they are most used and so outside arena applications. I am not always agreed with on some of my thoughts on this subject. It is(IMO) a "whatever works for you" proposition. My basic idea is that if your saddle fits properly you wont have much need. Of course there are exceptions, but in my experience as Echo4v mentioned, even in my back country riding both flankC and BC rarely came into play. If I am riding soeone else's horse I may use them, if that is their wish. They did however become, what I call , misused, when less informed riders assume that they were intened as a fix to an illfitting saddle. Though they may,in fact, work to some degree, that doesn't mean it's good for the horse. So just a word to the wise as to the need and proper use. I will admit that I used to use the BC and FC to look like I knew what I was doing, or to look like I was well equipped. But in later years other than showing off my work, I have more fun without them, that is, it is more impressive(if your intersted in impressing anyone) when I am out in the rough country and people realise I don't have them and wonder how I do with out them. In most of those occations it is noticable that my girth cincha is also not choking my mount. I explain that when your saddle fits properly,it stays in place, you have little need for BC or FC.( I believe a rider's riding style has something to do with that as well) That usually starts a good conversation for the rest stop or around the fire that night. As to your comment about the conformation of the horse it is more important to me to look for a better saddle fit then to get a less well fitting saddle to stay on my horse. The horse is likely to pay the price, not to mention a horse peforms better for yu under a well fitting saddle. I'm not saying don't use them, I'm just saying that mine hang on a hook in my shop most of the time, But that's just me. Cheers GH

Since no one has ventured in here I will give you a general idea and maybe someone else will jump in. It depends a little bit on the style you want to end up with. To me the most important thing is to lay the uncut cover over the tree and get an idea of how much overhang you want in front. If you start from the other end you may not have enough. Part of this step is visuallization. You are trying to visuallize where things are going to end up after you cut and slide the hide down over the horn and cantle. It will move ahead a bit for the cantle and back for the horn. Wait, go make a patern first. I use pallet liners that I get from the feed store. Some has a slick coating on it that helps it hold up while you are messing with it. Now unerstand that I am a make your own paterns kind of guy and I don't always figure things out scientifically, maybe one of the other guys here can. For instance on your patern material you could make a center line that you can line up with the center line that goes through your saddle front to back. Stand to the side and get a visual of where the base(sides of the seat where cantle intersect with bars) of the cantle would line up on your pat. That is where you make a refrence line on your pat. You also want to find the back center of your cantle and mark it on your pat. Next I would get a different piece of patern material and make a patern that follows as closely as possible to the shape of the back of the cantle. The ends have to correspond in length with the marks you made for the cantle base. You will lay it on the main pattern line the marks up to transfer the line where you will make the cantle relief cut. BTW, I am making this up as I go if I were doing it. Yes I know I said I was going to be general but I got to brain stormin. I will admit that I am worried about the front cut for the horn because when the cantle cut is made and you slide the hide or pat down to the bars, then you run your hand forward to lay the material in the seat up to the swell the front is going to move to the rear. Maybe a good way to get a rough measure for this is to use a cloth tape from your desired front over hang, back beside the horn base, down the swell across the seat to the mark you made for the front of the cantle(where it meets the bars). That should give you a reference point to determine how much travel you will get out of the hide and help you plan for your horn hole. -Note, be aware that the part that covers the seat will only go part way up the front of the cantle.- Once you get things cut you will need to work the hide after you put it on to try to get wrinkles out from under where your legs with go, as well as getting other parts to lay as well as possible. The more time you take to work things in the nicer it will look. It you plan to use saddle strings and conchos to hold it down you'll want to wait til you finish working the hide before you start locating your holes. Keep in mind that mochilas aren't supposed to look like they came from the harness shop so whatever you do, it should look good for a ron-day-voo. Look forward to seeing it. Good luck, GH

Well first, splitting the sell cover isn't a bad thing. There are ways to lace it that is not complicated and looks good. Second when it comes down to it, you will probably put a dally wrap on it anyway so no one is goning to see it but you when and if you change the dally wrap. Look at pics 2-3 they are the same saddle but 3 has the dally wrap on it. Maybe the others will chime in here and I'll learn a trick or two. I'm game.GH

That's not 'Plain' awsome, it's Famn Dancey Awsome! GH

Ralides are fine for show or pleasure. But they are plastic and the get brittle with age. I've repaired some with shatered bar ends. The brakes tend to follow screw lines like glass follows a scratch like. As for seats, they are not built to be anatomically corect so they would need a little work. I have modified the lumps and ridges out of them to make them comfortable(store boughts). As for flex, they will not flex from rider's waight so as you can notice. They are a stiff piece of injection molded plastic. Probably more flex in a wood tree(but not from rider weight). Ralide does make a flex tree that is not so stiff. I think you would have to be in an extreem situation for it to flex the way you are asking. The only other thing is that the last time I talked to them I think they said they had a 25+ min. on ordering trees from them. As for fasteners, I would use ring shanks and if I use screws either predrill or with drywall screws I work them in in stages, go in, back out,, go in further, back out then finish set. Hope that helps. GH

Steve, I agree with Greg, if it pencils out, but keep other things in mind too. I had an experience that went bad on me. We tooking a horse as partial tarde on a show saddle. The horse represented X$, and they paid X$ for materials with X$ to be paid upon completion. The intent and agreement first was that the saddle would be done in a few months(gave me a buffer) as it was a slow time for me, I figured I could devote more attention to this project. The problem was they couldn't decide what siler they wanted and time went by amd ate up my buffer time. I didn't want to build too much ahead because the carving needed to be compatable with what ever silver I would end up putting on. The next problem was that things started picking up and I had bills to pay so the trade saddle went to the back line, when the siver finally came in, the owners expected me to stop everything to finish thier saddle. Well that was a juggling act I don't want to get into again. By the time I was able to get it worked in with other commitments,neither of us were happy about the deal. I origionally knocked off $250 for the delay(prior to finish) hoping they would be happier, but it didn't seem to help. By the time I was able to deliver it they still owed $250, but I decided the heck with it, I just wanted it done. So I put myself in a bad position that was hard to get out of and no one was happy. I also like the idea of telling the trader to sell the horse and trade for cash. I'm not saying don't do it, just be a better horse trader and quicker saddle maker than I am.

Tim, Ditto Bruce. You just have to get the feel of "working" your leather(No you don't need to use crappy soft stuff just good leather). It is not a quick process. I use a combination of rub tools(bouncer, rub stick or my chinaman handle) but there is also stretching and pulling(lasting pliers). I do some skiving and feathering around edges that need to make a smooth transitions, which helps things lay right. I'll anchor on side, pull to the other side,(watch the centering of the horn hole) then start working. Sometimes I will pink the horn hole which helps in stretching over the horn yet pull up tight around the horn base(or the appearence thereof) I will practice on scraps first before trying on the actual cover. Different ways to decorate around the base if one likes. Depending on how I do my front edge I may remove the cover a few times to do other work. If I have to use a lace up back, I don't cut all the down the back, just part way so I don't have to worry about pulling too much away from the split when shaping the rest of the cover(slick shouldn't have that much stretching and pulling anyway). As Bruce said, it depends on how big you horn cap is, but I have done and seen done some pretty ratical swells covered with one piece(no welts, no split and lace) covers. I think it's fun because those who know recognise what it takes. I also will do a split and lace to show off my lacing. All takes practice. Good luck Have fun GH Kind of asshamed to show some this early work, at least I know what I would change now. #1,#2,#3 and one piece swell covers. #2,#3 are before and after dally wrap #4 is one piece with laced back, Rawhide binding front(had a better angle but lighting made it hard to see).

Convert a bicycle crank, that's what Ron's looks like in the pic.GH

Sorry, I misunderstood the trade, I thought it went the other way. But that's okay. You're right that now you can pick up a few more things to look for in your next saddle. I've been off here all summer and I don't know if seats have been covered but I'll see if I can give a quick run down('quick' HAA Haa!!!), and I'm sure others will fill in the gaps as you'll have more questions. You were talking about slick forks to give you more leg room, but you can have Bowman or association or whatever with a bit longer seat length with the ground seat built up and carved out so you still have room on the front. Genearlly whatever swell you have, one of the issues you are also going to run into with a wide seat is sore knees and ankles. The wide seat pushes you thighs away from the horse causing your leg tendons and ligaments to overwork themselves by the time they get to the stirrups. Generally speaking we are trying to keep everything as streight as posible posture wise. So narrowing down the seat so as to bring your thighs into a more natural 'hang', takes stress off your knees and ankles,(and hip joints in some people's case) and gives the rider better controle of his riding seat and his balance. Personally I believe in building up those thighs and using them for controle rather than sitting on my seat bones. But we wont get into that here. I guess that's the short version. I bet too if you know your stirrup length on the wide seat, you'll notice it get a bit longer with the narrower seat. Anyway, you will notice that when you get your legs closer to the horse you'll ride better and with more control and comfort. I'm done.GH P.S. I think there are threads about carving out ground seats as well as other aspects of saddle building for the first timer. gh

I had a suspition your question about swell width wasn't going the direction you wanted to go. Don't worry, I've done the same thing. I agree with Bruce that the seat is your problem. It doesn't matter whose name is on any saddle or the style . The Wade isn't your problem, it's the way the seat was put in. If you aren't into that saddle too much you could have a saddle maker rework the seat and you'll be surprised how much better your ride will be. Good Luck. GH

I don't know if you want to start a new thread here,(broken trees) but as to the bench test, I agree that was not what I would call a real world situation. I too figured that the swell broke because of how the tree was lashed down, as well as the angle of pull. It did not appear to me to replicate a saddle on a horse under stress. I would say that after getting replies from saddle makers as to what kinds of breaks they have seen, I would compile that information and then ask the makers and the riders what situations have you seen where you thought a tree should have broken but didn't. I'm sure the comparison would show that trees breaking under normal use is the exception to the rule. In my experience, the trees that I have seen broken were broken in the bars , usually at the stirrup slots or originating there then following a grain. Causes of breakes ranged from runaway horse hooking the horn on a tree branch,loading a saddled horse into a trailer(horn hit the roof bar of the trailer)rollovers-fallovers, stomped in the seat while the saddle was on the ground,banged into posts or rails in an arena. Usually these damages were witnessed in saddles that were not of the highest quality, or the saddle was being used beyond it's intended pupose. Say a cutter-rainer used to rope something. Old saddles with dried out wood. I have seen broke bar tips on the old saddles so they don't count. Old saddles with dried out glue and dove tailed shells and cantles, probably in the same catagory. Bottom line, I have not seen or heard of from other saddle makers I know, any roper style or pleasure saddles that are of reputible quality that have broken trees that were used for their intended purpose. David's question about how narrow is still functional, I would suggest you ask different tree makers what they would suggest they do. You should be able to get a feel for the 'norm'. Hopefully you will hear a repeat of R&D's explanation relatings to types of wood, laminations, and hide thickness. I personally am curious as to how thin you want to go and why. You will want to keep in mind that you want to stay within cirtain peramiters relating to your intended use. For instance, snow skis don't make good water skis, or a harley hog wouldn't make a good dirt bike. Best wishes. GH

Mike I agree with everything suggested. When checking leg length, if there is an issue that can be corrected, your wife might want to go to the chiropractor a couple times then start retraining herself to ride centered and with proper posture. Off centered riding comes from finding what feels comfortable to the rider then they can get in the habbit of doing it wrong. It will be awkward at first to change but things will improve for her and the horse. Might have her try a different saddle and maybe a different horse too, just to see if things change. Either way, as mentioned by others, she needs to improver her riding style for both their sakes. It's a matter of retraining muscles and eventually improving the riding experience for horse and rider. Good luck GH

Bruce, you and I seem to think a lot a like on a lot of things. I just thought I'd see what others had to say. I had the the same thoughts about the softer leathers handling rasps and nails. I hadn't even thought of cordura for the reason you mentioned. I have a cordura bib style apron I use for slaughtering that works well in that application but I wouldn't care to use it around nails and rasps and such. Greg and Steve, what is the cost after shipping stuff across the border to us? I might like to try the brown mh if it's not to costly to ship. Thanks for the replies. GH

Any one had good luck using something besides pearl split(mule hide) for shoeing chaps? I know some of you were talking about using elktan for horn wraps, just curious if something else would work as well for farrier chaps. Thanks, GH

Pics wont open, can't see the tools. GH

Can we address that point that the store wouldn't let you look at the hide first? What the heck is up with that? Some bodie's store ethics must not be taking into consideration that if I look at a hide and make my own choice to take it home then the condition of the hide is on me. However if a customer doesn't get to look at a hide before he buys it, gets home and sees a problem then that will reflect poorly on the store. Maybe I'm just getting cranky in my old age(what maybe?) but if I was in a store and they wouldn't let me check the condition of an item I would be telling them that if they think their customers wont bring something back if it turns out to have a problem and therefore they got something out of their store that they thought was questionable, I would be questioning if that is someone I want me or my friends doing business with. Wolv, as to dealing with latago mold usually isn't much to worry about unless it ate it's way into the grain. As was mentioned earlier, the mildew is most likely on top of the fats and not a chore to git rid of. Good luck. GH

Pete, I would measure from the spine, and install the liner from the spine to the outside edge, doing one side at a time. When you get the slot side in place the turn it around and finish the other side,that should keep the slot where you want it. It also lets you control better the pucker that can occour when folding liners inside of covers. Hope that's helpful. GH

Rookie, All good points to consider, but mainly you, as many before you, think you have templets to work with. To a degree you do. Thing is, all the major parts put on a saddle are fit to that saddle which involves skiving and stretching and 'drying' in place. Then they have been ridden in who knows what kind of conditions and stored and cared for the same. Oil dirt water and drying some more. A lot of horse sweet and who knows what else. So,,, when you tare a used saddle apart you will be stretching everything(many things) the other direction from where it was fit to in the first place(kind of like trying to flatten out and orange peal and making a new cover for it). Not to mention what is under the top leather. There are places with build ups and fillers underneath, and as was talked about earlier, not everyone builds a saddle the same so you are likely to find some surprises when you open it up, and you may not want to repeat what they did. We aren't saying you can't do it, but there is more to it than just copying the parts you took off and sticking the new ones one. As was said before, Good luck and have fun.GH

JWW, I also use latago and mulehide. For riders that are going to use it for more than looks, I use the heavier stuff and don't split it down, doesn't make sense to me to split a split. The whole reason for using a wrap is to protect the horn cover so I want a good wrap on it. As to how mule hide got it's name , I was led to believe that it was origionally made from mules in the early days then when the source of mules began to deminish( thanks to John Deere,IH, Furgusen,ect..) horse hide was substituted, then when that market became less stabil it has pretty much gone to bovines. I usually just order pear splits or apron slits. I have noticed some of the nicer saddles have been using other soft hides but I think it's more for appearence.I'll also look into the elktan. Regards, GH

As to carving a gender specific seat for me has never been too much of an issue only because I have been able to have the customer sit in the seat as I was carving it. That doesn't mean I can do a good gender specific seat for someone that can't sit for me. Now, I will publicly admit that I do have a hard time carving a generic seat. That is, a saddle built to sell to now one in particular. I also have been lucky enough to have my wife be able to sit my seats while I carve them, and she usually manages to help me get a seat that everyone likes who sits it. I can't however carve a seat for myself to save my aching butt. But that's probably due to the fact that I have a wierd ars butt. As David said, and I have found, when you keep in mind the angles of thigh bones as they lay in the seat it becomes easier to see where to carve. My problem is in fine tuning if I don't have a client on site. I get nervous if I have to make a best guess, but I've never had any complaints. Now a subject that I have held off talking about is "close contact", because I didn't want to come off sounding snobbish or smart ars. I now see that it is a perspective subject. There are certain terms or catch fraizes that customers latch onto, turn it into an issue that isn't one. (take it to an extreem that may not even apply to their situation) My thought is that close contact is more aptly applied to the bars and the horse's back than the seat of the saddle. Yes, many commercial saddles tend to leave too much material in their seats and between that extra hight and poor fitting bars a rider can feel perched on top the horse. But in fact, a custom saddle builder can only get a rider so close to the horse's back before he has to change the design of the tree. Any way you look at it there is a certain amount of wood and leather between the rider and the horse. That being said I again agree with DG that building up a bit in the center line of the seat liftes the rider away from that feeling of sitting on a 2x12. BUT the lift is neglegable as it relates to distance between the rider and the horse. Early on when I was trying to figure out a fit problem for a gal it occoured to me that the way we are built, we have an amount of soft tissue between our seat bones and to avoid that sitting on a board, prying apart feeling, there needs to be some material right up the middle.Not a lot,just not flat. The gal in question mentioned the problem, and I took out my wallet and told her to raise bit off the seat and I slid the wallet just to her pubis and she set back in place and said,"That's it". From then on I not only smiled every time I opened my wallet,( not really, I don't even carry a wallet) but I also paid more attention to shaping that part of the seat. JAM, what I do when fine tuning to a customer, is let them sit the seat long enough to feel high spots, flat spots, bad spots and point them out, I skive them down untill they don't feel any spots and the seat feels cumfy to them. Usually I already have the plain of the thigh bone carved right, then fine tune the seat bone issues. I think with all the info you are gleaning from here you will have a better idea what you are shooting for on your first ground seat. It wasn't uncommon for me to tare out a ground seat and start over with my first couple I did. By the way, I don't know if any one has passed this tip on to you, but when you start carving a seat it is helpful to shop often, set the tree on the front bar tips(on a table or draw down) and lean the the bottom of the rear of the bars against you, with eyes closed use both hands on either side of the ground work to 'see' your progress with your hands. Since this is almost an 'R' rated topic, my mentor told me "It's a sexual thing" at least it looks like it. You'll be suprized how much better you can pick out oddities left and right, front and back, and feel the contours better than just looking at it. Gotta keep things interesting,right? Best wishes,GH