Denise

Casey, I know nothing about sewing machines other than what I read on here. There is a sweing machine section http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showforum=50 and some of the numbers look familiar to me from there. If you put in the numbers and search there (advanced search will help) you will probably find a lot of what you are looking for. If you can't find something one one of them, than ask the question specifically in that forum. This is the right place if you want to sell them, but the sewing machine guys (and we have some pretty good guys who really know machines on this forum) tend to look at that one more. So have fun in your search and welcome to the forum! Who knows, you may be sitting on a gold mine.

Welcome! But it's green here and I am substantially north of you yet - and west. We need more Canadians on here! After all, what else do we do in our igloos all winter but worth with leather??? (inside joke, Canadian style)

Tina, I apologize. I think I typed too quickly. I should have said "The style of fork CAN BE independant of the fork style". The shape of the fork and the shape of the final groundseat can be totally independant of each other. However, I expect that certain styles of forks are commonly associated with certain events, and those events may have a common type of ground seat to help the rider compete. So while the fork style and seat don't have to correlate, they very well may if you are buying "off the rack" saddles. Now I'll be quiet and let people with far more knowledge in this area type. PS. JW, looks like we are typing at the same time!

JW, I agree. But I think a good saddle maker can, with a lot of work, overcome a bad tree if they have to, and a bad saddle maker can wreck a good tree without nearly the same amount of work! Do you think that there is such a thing as a tree that is so bad a good saddle maker can't overcome it to make a good seat in it?

Tina, the style of fork is as independant of the rider's seat as it is of the fit for the horse. How you feel when sitting in the saddle has to do with how the saddle maker builds the groundseat. Any style of fork/tree can have a good seat built in it, or a bad seat built in it. The better question is "which saddle maker can put in a good seat?"

Billy, Could you rephrase your question please? I am not quite clear on what you are asking.

I have been reading an old book by Frederic Remington. He was a writer and artist in the late 1800's out west. The book is a reprint of Pony Tracks, originally published 1892. He talks a lot about the vaqueros and makes mention of their charro saddles. "Their saddle-trees are very short, and as straight and quite as shapeless as a "saw-buck pack saddle." The horn is as big as a dinner plate, and taken altogether it is inferior to the California tree. It is very hard on horses' backs, and not at all comfortable to a rider who is not accustomed to it." He also comments that the only thing the vaqueros would purchase was the iron rings. They made the rest of the saddles for themselves. Having seen a couple of old charro trees at Don King's museum, I can agree with his assessment of the fit. Fortunately, the top of the tree and the bottom can be independent so a tree can be made to look like an old charro but fit a modern day horse too.

Tina, A "swell fork", in general terminology, will be wider across the middle than where it joins the bars. It "swells" out and then comes back in at the bottom to join the bars. A slick fork is widest at the bottom where it joins the bars. The narrower they are on the way down, the "slicker" they are. Our widest "slick forks" will go out and then pretty much drop down straight to the bottom so they still classify as slick forks even though they aren't very "slick". When a lot of fork styles were first made they had a specific width, stock thickness, etc. etc. Over time others look at the basic shape and say "I like that" and copy it, but they make slight changes. Others say "I like that but I want..." and change it some more. So over time the name simply refers to the basic shape, and even that varies between makers. All the other specs are changable. Fortunately, there are some people still around who can give us the history on some of the originals.

Cowboy, Here is an older discussion on the topic that has a few pictures and a couple diagrams from Keith Seidel that you may find helpful. http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=906

This is an interesting thread to read because it shows how diverse people are in personality and learning styles. I'm a "why waste my time reinventing the wheel when the information is available from others if I ask or read" type. My husband is a "I'm going to figure it out by myself no matter how long it takes" type. You can imagine some of the discussions we have had over the years... That's what makes life exciting, right! The same differences exist as far as sharing information. There are the "what do you want to know? I'd like to help in any way I can" types and the "I figured it out on my own, so can you" type. The majority of us are somewhere in between, and the reasons for being the way we are are as individual as we are. Leatherwork, by nature, is an individual occupation. A lot of people spend a lot of time alone sniffing glue fumes involuntarily (at least in the majority of cases). Some of the most creative work I have seen on here has been done by people without access to the traditional learning situations who have come up with their own very unique styles and techniques. Others work to master the traditional patterns and methods. The diversity of what can be done with leather is one of the biggest fascinations about it. Leatherworker.net was set up as a community where people could see and applaud other's work and learn from it so their own would improve. Some people sit and study pictures for hours, seeing the fine details and learning that way. The whole "How do I do that" forum was set up as an incentive to ask questions. Nobody is required to share their techniques, but Leatherworker makes sharing and learning available in a way that wasn't possible even 10 years ago. Those who participate gain more than those who lurk, but lurkers are welcome too. Asking questions is encouraged. After all, it is one of the most efficient ways of learning - if the question is answered. The responses are voluntary, and the reader has to decide on the usefulness of the information provided to them in their situation. That is what being an individual in a community is all about. Nothing is required here. What is given is given voluntarily, which is one of the reasons LW.net is such a fun place to hang out. People tend to be happy when they are giving and helping others. Kevin, thank you for posting your work and being an inspiriation to others by showing them just what can be done, artistically and in construction. Thanks also for being willing to share as much as you do. Your wallets are absolutely unique and beautiful.

Look and the grins on both your faces! Well deserved too. Lots of hours of hard work into a very ambitious project and the reward of a happy customer. Congratulations Josh!

Congratulations, JW! I wish your daughter and husband, and your whole family, all the best.

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showforum=210 There is a whole forum for masks. Enjoy reading the posts. Feel free to bring back old posts and ask questions too.

He posted this in January of this year.

Most saddle makers, when they get a tree, take it out to some horses and try it on, learning how that type of that maker's tree fits the horses he is most familiar with. Then they do the same thing with different trees they get and over time they get a pretty good feel for how different makers different tree styles fit different horses. The forms just represent the shape of the bottom of this maker's normal trees so you don't have to buy however many trees to see how their different styles fit. You buy the forms instead. That said, the forms only apply to their trees (every tree maker does things differently, you know ) and if they change how they are building something, then the forms may be out of date. (But I don't know how often they may change.) Since Steel makes trees for some of the bigger name production companies, I think the idea behind these was for retail stores to have them, see which one fit best on a customer's horse and then sell saddles with that style of tree in it.

I had most of a post written on this a few days ago and then deleted it thinking it sounded way too negative. But since you brought up the same points, Ray... In reading your initial post, I thought "Your first decision is whether you have employees or not." That would make a big difference as to what kind of space you need. A friend of ours was in a similar circumstance. He crunched the numbers and figured that he would need to turn out three times the amount of work he currently was doing to pay for one employee, so he decided to stay solo. (How he figured this out I don't know.) But besides the costs and paperwork, there is also the fact that "your" work is now not being done by you. And how comfortable are you with that? A huge consideration for anyone in that situation is "Will I make a good employer? Am I willing to give my employee the time to learn, the positive encouragement needed when they make mistakes and ruin leather (because they will!), and space to work without looking over their shoulder all the time?" Giving up control, even in the more mundane areas of work, is a hard thing for a lot of artisans. Our standards are high and trusting someone else to do the same quality of work is tough. And getting a person that cares that much ("Why should I when it's not my name on it?" is too common an attitude) is very tough. If you find such a person, they are worth their weight in gold. But if you aren't a good employer, or you expect to pay low wages, then you will have a revolving door of employees resulting in constant training time and increased costs in mistakes, wasted leather, etc. Being a good employer is a tough job, and a lot of us would rather do the work ourselves than be that good employer.

I have found a few threads with lists of tools: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=8468&hl= http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=15425 http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=820 I think it would be good to have a list like this pinned at the top of this section. If others want to add in what they consider basic tools, and then someone who knows far more about building saddles wants to compile a list, we could get a good list going for future reference. Any additions or volunteers?

There was a comment on the system well down on the first page of this thread: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=4947

The section I moved your post to "Choosing the right saddle for the horse" has some pretty good information in the archives. Saddle fit and its components were pretty heavily discussed in 2007 and 2008 by both tree and saddle makers - people who should know what they are doing in regards to saddle fit - so reading through some of those old posts would give you a good foundation anyway. Personally, I have not found a lot of good information on fitting a Western saddle that is available to the public. Most fitting information is geared for English saddles or extrapolated from English saddle fitting to Western where the "rules" just don't apply in the same way.

The question in my mind is- if it is broken there, where else is it broken and how badly? If screws and staples are pulling out, I sure wouldn't trust the integrity of tree or the quality of the rest of the saddle either. It needs to be totally checked out before one small area is fixed and called good.

If you Google Max B Goldberg and saddle, there is one listing for a farm auction that isn't available anymore from May 30, 2009. I don't know how to find any more information, but maybe that is your guy? PUBLIC AUCTION Household Auction in Manzanola CO - Maiers Auction ... Max B Goldberg saddle. Roping saddle. 2-RT Frazier Saddle. Macks Saddler saddle. RT Frazier nickel horn saddle. Sev. other misc saddles. Misc tack ... www.farmauctionguide.com/Auctioneer/stacey/Auction/.../View_Map - Cached http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:B4Rhdwiwd6sJ:www.farmauctionguide.com/Auctioneer/stacey/Auction/1241660084/View_Map+saddle+%22Max+B+Goldberg%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

I must admit that when I saw the price tag, I figured this would be a fancy carved or filigreed belt such as we have seen from some of the talented craftsmen on here. I guess the fact that I didn't recognize the name of the designer says that I'm not up on the world of fashion, but to see a plain stitched belt for that price - lets just say I was a little surprised...

Adding to the rant is people who will not ship via the post office, only courier. To those of us across borders, especially in rural areas, couriers just don't work. It may be a pain to have to do something different than call a number and have a courier pick it up at your door, but across border we just don't purchase if couriers are the only option. The extra fees and hassle (no, they DON'T deliver door to door when you live 25 miles from town!! Nor do they call till they are IN town wondering where to drop it off!) mean that place loses a sale.

Jake, If you would put up a tutorial, that would be great and would help a lot of people. Please do!

Thanks for the information, bex. Good to know. Now I can say that couriers always charge a brokerage fee, but the post office doesn't to some countries! You are giving very sound advice here.