kseidel

Good Morning Andy, Respectfully I reply to your post.... Dry spots under the saddle are not caused by the absence of pressure. Only pressure points or the inability to sweat will result in a dry spot. Sometimes the skin suffers enough damage to cause the sweat glands to not sweat properly or at all. If the horse sweats properly, then a dry spot will be caused from a pressure point. If it is a large dry spot, it is caused by a smaller pressure point compounded by movement causing the pressure to be spread over a larger area. You cannot have a pressure point the size of the entire front bar pad. Even a saddle with excessive bridging will fully sweat under the saddle. Only the air flow space thru the gullet may remain dry, and that not after riding for very long. Keith

It is difficult to determine the symmetry of a rigging even when it is being constructed, let alone after it is finished, without some pre- designed equipment. The rigging must be square to the horse and how the bars sit on the horse. Ideally one would set the saddle on a stand that has a center line determined to be centered through the tree's position, and then be able to square off of that center line. It can also be checked with a plumb bob and a specific point on the horn. This method is plagued with many potential errors mostly due to operator variable. Many saddlemakers measure from points on the horn, bars, cantle, and swell, to check symmetry from one side to the other. The problem with this is that even the best trees are seldom perfect. If the horn or cantle or swell is slightly out of center or twisted from side to side, this throws off those calculations. Also thickness of rawhide can make one bar longer than the other. I have found these methods to be highly variable and unsatisfactory for consistent rigging symmetry. If you measure off of the skirts, they have to be exactly the same and again we are measuring from usually the tip of the bar which can be different from side to side. The riggings need to be within 1/4" of the same position. More than 1/4" will cause the saddle to move and walk on the horses back. Most of the riggings that I have found to be out of square are 3/4" or more. The result is usually moving blankets and a sore horses' back. Bucking is not usually associated with riggings our of square. Hope this helps answer this question. Keith

Huntet32, Well you have gotten a lot of people thinking about your situation! I was busy yesterday and returned this AM to 24 additional posts! Took me a while to catch up. Everyone is correct in placement of your saddle being too far forward. Cinch position does not dictate proper tree position in any way. The opposite is true in that when the tree sits where it is made to fit, the rigging position affects where the cinch is intended to hang by the saddlemaker. Having the cinch anywhere on the sternum is effective and acceptable. Your last pics indicate the saddle is still a bit far forward. The 3/4 +/- is better suited for horses with steeper shoulders, allowing a tree to sit farther forward without the cinch rubbing the elbow. Your horse is built for a 7/8ths to full rigging position, but the 3/4 will work just fine. You just need to be comfortable with the cinch placement farther back than you are used to. Your horses' back is not hard to fit, despite what your trainer / friends may be telling you. In fact it is a fairly common and desirable back conformation. The rear rigging is set quite far back on this particular saddle. When the saddle is in the proper position on your horse, the flank cinch may be too far back and into the flank area. If not too tight and the horse used to a rear cinch, that should not be the cause of her bucking. The "lump" that you feel under the sheepskin on the right front corner is possibly caused from the saddle string not being set correctly, as well as the other possibilities mentioned. If it is the saddle string, it seems high enough and does not stick out far enough from the pics to cause a horse to buck. In any case, it is a manufacturers defect that they should be held responsible for, including shipping both ways. So, the fact that your horse bucks with your new saddle still remains unsolved. We have eliminated a number of factors, but more possibilities still exist. You did not find any painful pressure points on her back, indicating that she is not over-reacting to pinching in the withers, or digging of the rear bar tips in her kidneys. We need to consider that there may be too much rock in the bars. Many horses exhibit poor behavior to too much pressure in the center of the back. (bucking is not the classic reaction, but possible. Head and neck reactions are indicators.) You stated that your pad had slipped prior to the bucking fit... had it slipped back far enough to allow the front of the saddle to be off of the pad and in direct contact with the horse? This would allow the front of the tree to sit lower than the rest and create additional pressure in the center. Also, in trying to re-create the incident, what was the saddles original position? Was it set far forward over the shoulder blades as shown in some of your pics? If so, did it slide back several inches? This might have caused the cinch to bind and become uncomfortably tight. It also would pull the tree bars tight into the shoulder blades. The amount of rock and twist and angle of tree bars, and the square of the rigging, and how much the tree moves on the horse, are difficult things to assess in pictures. But they are critical to the horses' comfort and performance. It is unfortunate that you do not have a qualified saddler in your area. That would simplify this process. If you keep supplying us with information, we may eventually get the problem solved. Keith

Sage, While I fully agree with you that a rigging out of square will render the saddle unfit to ride, I fail to see any definitive evidence of this based on the pics in the post #32. There haven't been any pics that one can compare rigging placement from side to side effectively. You are correct that this may be a problem, but more critical inspection is required. Respectfully, Keith

Your horses' reactions sound somewhat as if she were being pinched in the wither area. Her reactions are violent enough that you should be able to re-create some of this response with your hands pinching her. Also as Denise has stated, the pressure needs to be towards the spine. Please try pinching her withers between your thumb and fingers. Direct your pressure down and in towards the spine, and pinch hard. Squeeze in this manner, moving over a fairly large area of the withers.... high, lower. forward, more back, around shoulder scapula, etc. There should be some noticeable reaction from the horse if this is where the pain is originating in the saddle. Pinching in some places in the wither area will almost always result in bucking to some degree. You can do some of this heavy pressure testing other places on the back, but they will not usually yield as dramatic results. Another question... does the saddle have clearance in the gullet height when cinched in place? Is there still clearance with you sitting in the saddle? Check both front and back gullet (in front of the horn and behind the horn.) How about when moving? Many wade trees are made with lower clearances, and bumping on the top of the withers can sometime cause bucking. Be patient with us, and I am sure we can pinpoint your problem. Respectfully Keith

There is a lot of speculation going on here without many facts. The pictures of the horse are helpful, but we need to know the specs of the tree in the new saddle. What are the bars and what are the dimensions of the bars? If you do not know, then contact with the maker will be necessary. The type of swell is of no consequence to fit on the horse. The fact that the horse is bucking is important, but what sort of bucking can indicate where the pain originated. Example: did she crow hop with head up, or put her head down and buck with rounded back? As Denise asked... are there any sore spots on the back? Using pressure with your fingers, you should be able to cause a reaction from pressure in certain spots, ie:withers, rear loin, or center. What is the horses' reaction? There are certain reactions coupled with information from the saddle tree measurements that can tell us what the problem is and how to best address a fix. Keith

I too have been disturbed by these kinds of statements. I could also build a saddle for these low prices, but I choose not to as I hold my training and experience in higher regard. I would have to work for so little per hour that I would be unable to maintain a living. I believe a makers prices should not only reflect his quality of workmanship, and his years of experience and advanced training up to that point, but should also be compenserate to a quality lifestyle. It concerns me when I see well made hand-built saddles selling for discount prices because it reflects negatively on our entire industry. It is one thing to work with leather as a hobby and not make wages or profit, but professionals have to compete for business at those discounted prices. I would encourage anyone doing leather work for sale to price their goods at a competetive price. By that I mean that it should be high enough to compare to professional work of similar quality and experience. Not under priced to under-sell the competitor. It is because of this inequitable competetion that many talented saddlemakers are leaving the business. It is also why younger people are not entering the field and developing advanced skills. There are not the rewards for advanced skills and training in the saddle business that there are in other industries. In fact, it is a pretty poorly paying occupation. If it continues on this course, I believe it is destined to be done only by hobby leatherworkers. A person gets a PhD in his field to get a higher salary. It should be also in the saddle business. I am in need of experienced, qualified leatherworkers to work in my shop. I am able to pay the best wages in our industry, and even at that, there are none available. No one wants to train this long and work this hard for $15-$20 per hour. Who can blame them.... Well I guess I took over Shelly's soap box! Maybe I am preaching to the choir here, but I do not want to see this way of life disappear. Respectfully, Keith Seidel

For me, they best blend together at the base of the cantle. Higher up the cantle leaves a visible line that is hard to hide. Keith

I always run my groundseat leather to the top of the cantle when putting in a hard seat. I want to make the foundation under the hard seat as smooth as possible. The nails in the tree leave a depression that is magnified under the final seat leather. I can also correct any discrepancies in the shape of the cantle. If you are doing a full padded seat, it is not as critical. Keith

The style and timing are right for this to be the first saddle George made for Bobs. The silver would be sterling overlay, not electroplate. The initials are jewelers bronze. Bruce is correct that it probably would be more cost effective to replace the entire name plate. Diablo silver would have a perfect match. You got a great saddle at an extremely great value! Keith

Great Job Steve! A tip: To avoid the gap in the hand hole at the ground seat on each side, push a bit more slack into the hand hole before cutting, and allow for the thickness of leather when making the cut. Put as much leather into the hole as possible. Keith

Good questions for a beginner! I appreciate the fact that you are using the resources available and studying and doing your homework. You are right in that not everything is completely addressed. In the area of riggings, the leather fitted in front of and above the cantle end can be skived along the edges to blend into your ground seat without compromise. It is best if you plan for this when skiving your ground seat to leave enough thickness, but all is not lost. You do not need to extend up above the cantle end much, if any. It is best to go about 1/2" if possible, as this gives you a good place for a screw. In your case, go as high as you wish, and skive the rigging on the back side to blend in to your seat. Leave it full thickness from about 1/4" below the cantle. Be sure to put your screws into full thickness leather. They can be placed farther from the cantle. I will attach a sketch that may help. As far as thickness for riggings, you want at least 10-12 oz. of full thickness. The edges can be skived and tapered to blend into your tree, seat and skirts, but must be full thickness where you attach with screws and nails. If your edge is fairly thin in the tab above and in front of the cantle, use short nails and nail the edge down to avoid curling up into your seat over time. Make your skive at the top edges along the swell and cantle short and steep to keep the as much of the the full thickness as possible as high as possible. Put the screws at least 3/8"-1/2" from edge of skive into the full thickness. Respectfully, Keith

Mike, I worked with George 25 years ago. He worked at Bobs Saddlery in Scottsdale in the late 70's an left in early 80's over business disagreements. George made top of the line show saddles, and was among the most respected and sought after craftsmen of the time in the show saddle arena. His saddles were all handmade with hand laid ground seats, and individually cut and fitted parts, real sheepskin lining, etc. All hand tooled, no machinery. The silver was mostly silver overlay, hand cut and hand engraved. He employed some saddlemakers, and silversmiths. All with the silver maker plate were made by him personally. This saddle appears to be in great condition, although most of the pics did not work on my computer, it seems to have little use. It is a shorter seat and would make a good saddle for your daughter. New today it would compare to a Blue Ribbon, and would run about $8000. Its used value in todays market is about $2000-$3000. Hope this helps answer your question. Keith

CW, I will try to offer a tip or two.... It is difficult to address your problem without knowing exactly what you are doing, but here is a try. Try to cut your swell ccover from a part of the hide closer to the belly. For swells with welts, I like the center area of the belly away from any flank wrinkles, but fairly thick and firm. This will stretch and absorb well, and still have the thickness to hold up under hard use. cut your center horn hole, and then get wet thoroughly. Wet the leather, roll up like a tube and flex the tube, then unroll, and roll the opposite direction and repeat. Then unroll and wet again. When you put on swell for initial fitting, center over horn, with the firmest edge to the front. Stretch hard from side to side, pulling down over the tips of the swell. Then stretch front to back between horn and swell tips on each side. then fit the front edge along the gullet tight and put a nail on each side under where the concho would go later. Then fit the hand hole, pulling as much slack from each side into the hole, cutting around ground seat, and smoothing out all wrinkles. Now you have everything fitted around the center and the ends are sticking out. Continue stretching down over remainder of the sides, pulling a fold out where you want your welts to be on one side only. Do not cut any relief at this time! When you have your welt where you want, push the balance down to the bottom of the swell and put a nail about a half inch on either side of the welt position. (a note to remember here: push some slack between the welt and the nail in front and the hand hole at the back. You will need this to be able to get the welted swell over the widest points of the swell. This does not need to be real tight, as you can squish a lot of leather into this area later. Remember, with a one piece swell cover with no welts, we are pushing all of the slack into this area.) Now pinch the extra leather together at the welt and trim some of the extra. Use a rub stick to help get this position and not cut off too much. Use a pair of cantle pliers to crimp the welt position from top to bottom. Your highest point should be as low as you want it at this point. If not, stretch it lower and re-crimp. Mark where you want the top of the welt, and the bottom edge for trimming. Then remove the swell cover. Lay flat on a bench, and punch a round hole about 1/4" at the top of your welt position. Add the thickness of your swell and an additional 3/8" to the crimped line, and cut from the hole to the bottom. Trim off the bottom edge and the front gullet and handhole however you want to finish. Let dry adequately before skiving and stitching. Skive as you wish for your welt placement, and stitch in welt. Then replace for final installation. You can re-wet before final installation, but you do not need to be nearly as wet. Hope this helps, Respectfully, Keith

You would be best served to make your taps with the stirrups installed and have a second set of stirrups to change out. It is easy to change out stirrups, but taking taps on and off is time consuming even when made with buckles for quick attachment. There are places where it is best to attach the tap more solidly, and it is easiest to just change the entire stirrup. Keith

Denise, Your figure of $350 for the lowest material cost is probably fairly close if using imported goods, but that would be the bare minimum. Only a factory that is set up to mfg in quantity of identical saddles could achieve that figure. When the bean counters get involved, they figure everything down to the number of nails used. If they build 2000 saddles a year and can save $5 per saddle, that can be a substantial increase in profit. That is only possible under strict management, and high volume, using as much leather per hide as possible. Using the cheapest materials and not considering any quality, I believe it possible to get as low as the $200 range. These are the cheapest saddles usually made south of the border, but still in North America. Using only domestic US materials, It would be difficult to get below $300. Remember, even Hermann Oak makes a "utility" grade leather! However, a factory could get in this price range if necessary. The labor and overhead would add to that price dramatically! I believe any saddles under $800 retail are loss leaders for other saddles in their line. Keith

Hey Ashley, Would you mind sharing that spreadsheet with me as well? I have not taken the time to convert my ledger system to Excel yet, and I would like to see how you have your costs broken down as well. Thank you, Keith

Denise, About 1.5 years ago I re-calculated the actual cost that I have in building the average saddles that I make. I am on the high end of the price scale and therefore am using premium materials and supplies, and the cost is not important to me, only the quality. My actual cost was just over $1800! That does not include any silver or labor.... just leather, tree, woolskin, hardware, cement, nails, screws, stirrups, latigo, cinchas, oil, finish,.... everything that it takes to make each saddle finished and ready to ride. I also calculated the least expensive that a saddle could be made thinking that I might offer a "production" model, and the least that I could figure was $750. That was using a Bowden tree, average woolskins, import hardware, and only 2 sides of lesser grade Hermann Oak skirting. With labor included, I decided that it was not proffitable to pursue. Keith

Weazer, In today's market with costs being what they are, it is impossible to build a custom or handmade saddle under $2000. Most used handmade saddles that are good quality and well designed will sell for $2500 and up. You stated that you did not want to wast any more money, and my advice to you would be to spend a bit more money for that next level of saddle. You may have difficulty justifying the original cost, but will find it well worth it in a very short time. You will be surprised at the unity and oneness between you and your horse when riding a saddle properly designed and constructed. Making a saddle that performs properly is more than just a "handmade" saddle. It is about the balance and fit that comes from training and experience. Buying a handmade saddle for less money only comes from a saddlemaker that is less experienced and you are financing his practice. Most better production saddles are at leased designed by experienced saddlemakers, even though they are not as well constructed. But even a good production saddle will cost $2500 - $3000 to start. Many times, buying a lower priced handmade saddle is worse than a production saddle. Everything is costing more these days, and you will be much wiser to spend a bit more and get a much better saddle. Respectfully, Keith Seidel

Many riders will adjust their stirrup length for different events or when changing between larger and smaller horses. Full holes are too much adjustment and half holes allow for this fine tuning. You are right that it does weaken the leathers, and most riders do not get any advantage from the half holes. Respectfully, Keith

Ross, Way to nice of work to discard and start over! I have made many saddles that I was not satisfied with. Best way to improve is much experience. Training and education is valuable, but experience is priceless! Many leatherworkers will work a lifetime and never get this good. Be happy with what your skill level is now and constantly refine your work. You will develop a personal style in time that you are pleased with. This is very nice work and you should not be disappointed with it. I will write more critique later when I have a bit more time. In the meantime, be encouraged. Keith

Jon, I made a wade youth saddle that weighed 23 lbs fully rigged with stirrups and cinchas. Last winter I made a full sized saddle on a 14" wide low moose that finished out at 26 lbs. The tree weighed 13 lbs! It would have been nice to have a lighter weight tree for that saddle. Keith 23 # youth saddle 28 # saddle on 12" assoc 26# low moose

Bob and Steve, Why do you believe vertical holes are stronger than horizontal? Many of us punch half holes in our stirrup leathers and the 2 1/2" vertical blevins with half holes are the most common to tear out. Even single holes punched vertically tear out fairly regularly. Both styles carry the weight on two posts, but the horizontal posts are not in line in the direction of the pull, and are in a different cross section of the stirrup leather. If you want the holes closer together for a shorter adjustment, the distance is dictated by the vertical post spacing, and half holes leave an empty hole between the posts, further weakening the leather in line with the pull. Horizontal holes can be closer together at the discretion of the saddlemaker, without being too close together. I have seen lots of vertical holes torn out, and seldom a horizontal. The vertical are certainly the most common, but I have never considered them to be the strongest.

The black silver mounted saddle appears to be a Bohlin Made saddle, although there are some discrepancies in the construction that raise some questions. The brown saddle appeares to be an Olsen-Nolte from SanFrancisco. Both are prime saddles. I just returned from the Cody Old West Show and Auction and the prices for these types of saddles were much lower this year. Down about 40 - 50 percent. Keith

What is your budget? There may be some used handmade saddles available that would serve your needs. Keith