kseidel

The rigging placement on the saddle is fine for the horse... it is in the correct position. The fault lies with how you set the cinch when saddling your horse. The saddle is in the correct position, however, you have placed the cinch too close to the horses leg, and have the latigos running at an angle forward. This is incorrect. If you place the cinch straight down from the rigging, the cinch will be about 3 inches behind the leg where it is supposed to be. TKleather1 is correct in that the long latigo is supposed to be on the left (or near) side of the horse, and the billet should be on the right side. when running the long latigo around the rigging, it should go over the top of the hardware, and not through the slot a second time. A longer cinch is also in order for this animal. It would be best at least 2 - 3 inches higher on each side. The cinch should be 4 - 6 inches longer. The wear piece under the cinch buckle will not be a problem when in the proper place on the horse. These changes will put the cinch in the proper position, and your horse will be able to perform painlessly in this saddle. Respectfully, Keith Seidel

Who is the maker and what is the saddle? Can you post a pic? This info will help give you an accurate diagnosis. Sterling silver can tarnish very deeply! It can, however, be cleaned to a new shine. There are many ways to do this and they depend heavily on the saddle. Keith

We need a little more information in order to answer this question. What is the style of saddle? Seat length and shape? Stirrup fender shape and style of leathers? A picture or two would also be helpful. Keith

You might consider changing the rigging to a flat plate. That would get the wraps lower and reduce the bulk under your leg, and relieve the movement of the stirrup leathers. Keith

Yes, Longer is front to back, and deeper is top to bottom. Fitting jockeys tightly is difficult to master, and maybe more difficult to explain in words. Fitting them wetter will not mame them tighter, and may make matters worse. The principle is that you need to cut the parts so that when stretched into place they are tight all around. How to do that? On the rear jockeys: With the skirts in place, fit one side around the back of the cantle leaving all other edges long. Then, hold the top tight into the corner of the cantle and bar space, and slide the front edge under the cantle tip down about 1/4 - 3/8 inch below the cantle tip. Hold in place and mark center up thru the center of the skirts. Cut this line, and then flip this piece over and check for fit on the other side. If the tree is true, they should be nearly the same. Cut the other side using the first as a pattern, making any necessary adjustments for tree discrepancy. Lace them together with thread, and wet them moderately (submerged about 10 seconds) and stretch them into place. Use a spike on each side about the end of the cantle, and pulling down and forward. Then use another spike forward of this one and pull the end forward and upward. This will tighten up your corner. (you will have four spikes in use, 2 on each side.) On the seat, the method id somewhat the same. put one spike in the hole under the swell where the screw will go. Pull down and forward. Then use another spike at the front where the front rosette will go and pull forward and upward. You should expect to pull this about 1/2 inch or so. This will pull your front jockey very tight around the swell and make the outside corner tight to the skirt. Many people struggle here. Once your seat is glued into place, define the edge of the cantle as clearly as possible with a rub stick or bouncer. Then, using dividers, scribe a line where you want the edge of your cantle binding to lay. Put it where you want it. It can be very close or backed off some, but make it the same distance from the edge all the way around. Mark this line well as you will use it to mark the width of the cantle roll, as well as fit the cantle binding to it later on. From this line, mark and trim the cheyenne roll. Later when you are ready to install the cantle binding, fit it true to this line. It is no harder to fit it straight and smooth than to put it on crooked. You will need to plan ahead when cutting the seat around the cantle ears to leave enough to final cut to the edge of the cantle binding line. If you cut the ear to deep, you will have a gap that will be impossible to fill without putting the edge of the cantle binding forward of the line, thus ruining the smooth effect. Try working your leather with different temper. Maybe more wet, maybe more dry. Find what works best for you. My experience is most people work the leather much too wet. Two things here: 1) The angles of the corners. I did not say this clearly last post... The vertical lines of the skirt, both front and back, intersect the horizontal line of the bottom of the skirt at an angle too close to 90 degrees. Change this angle to be smaller. (more like 75 or 80) keeping the distance from the back of the cantle at the top of the skirt, extend the point of intersection with the bottom skirt line maybe 3/4 -1 inch. Experiment with what looks good to you and study other makers work also. 2) Transitioning from straight to curve and back to straight. The radius is irrelevant. Make it what you want. However, Even though it is a dramatic change in direction, it can be smooth. The block plane I refer to is a woodworking tool that is a flat surface with a blade in the middle. See this link Block plane This tool allows you to smooth out rough cuts. Even the best makers make rough cuts sometimes and need to smooth out our work. This is an invaluable too for smoothing corners of skirts, jockeys, seat jockeys, cantle rolls, and even horns. Almost everyone stamps too wet. You would be surprised at how much drier it can be stamped, and how much easier and crisper the stamping can be when the leather is drier. It is also easier to avoid the unsightly markes made by tools and fingernails. You have a lot to work on, but show some real potential. I do not waste time posting this much information to those I do not think are ready for the next level. Maybe this is all it will take to change the course of your career. I have seen great things from makers with far less talent than you. It won't be easy, and will cost you time which will cost you profits in the short run, but the rewards can be great. Many years ago I saw saddles at the Sheridan leather show that were so exceptional, that it made me want to go home and throw my tools away.... I would never reach that level! Then I began to realize that at one time they were at my level. Maybe over time I too could be that good. Now I am winning that show. Give it your best! You are on the right road to improvement. Best wishes my friend, Respectfully, Keith Seidel

Your desire to improve the aesthetics of your work is admirable! I commend you on the work that you are currently doing. Fundamentally, a saddle must be comfortable for the horse, comfortable for the rider, and strong enough for the application for which it was made. Everything else is cosmetic. It seems that you have those areas covered at least on the basic level. Cosmetics are not just making the saddle look better, they play a great part in the longevity of the saddle and can even affect the balance of horse and rider. Your saddle has an overall coarseness about it...but upon closer inspection, it has many good features. The smooth shape of the seat, the cantle ear is tight, the horizontal lines are straight. Other areas overshadow these good points. Some of the areas that need attention that I see are: 1) The overall saddle seems out of proportion. Skirts are too long in front, and jockeys are too long in back. The front of the skirt is as deep as the back, giving a tilting effect. There is more space between front jockey and edge of skirt than in rear... There should be more in rear and less in front. 2) Welt on swell is at an unusual angle and does not fit with the saddle shape. 3) There is a lot of loose space between the skirts and jockeys, both front and rear. 4) The latigo carrier is too low and out of square with the saddle. It looks like an afterthought. 5) The rear rigging looks like it was added later. It is not integrated into the rest of the rigging and hangs far below the jockey without support. 6) The front edge of the cantle binding does not follow the edge of the seat. It is set too far back in the top center, and wraps too far forward at the bottom. The profile line is not smooth and pleasing. 7) The center of the rear jockeys is not lined up with the center of the skirt. 8) There are a lot of marks and dings in the surface of the leather. An old man I used to work for said "No one wants to have 'turkey tracks' on their new saddle" Work the leather a little drier, and rub out the marks when fitting each piece. Be more careful to avoid these marks as they can be impossible to remove completely. 9) The angles of your skirts and jockeys are too square. Add a little more angle to the back and front skirt shape, making the corners a little longer. Then make the transition from straight to curve and back to straight smoother. You have some choppy corners in these transition areas. I use a small block plane to smooth the corners. 10) You are stamping the leather too wet. The stamps are mushy and not crisp. Allow the leather to dry back to natural color on the surface before stamping, and place the stamps more carefully... especially on the border. Try to be precise, not fast. Speed comes with proficiency. This is a lot of information for you to work on, but you have a good foundation to build upon. You must work at becoming smooth. Stand back and evaluate your work as someone who has never seen it before. A wise man once said "Oh to see ourselves as others see us." I hope this is helpful to you and not discouraging. Best of luck to you! Keith

This saddle is a spin on the "balanced ride" saddles originally designed by Monte Foreman for the reining discipline. The latigo laced into the skirt behind the rigging allowed the bulk of the wraps to be spread out and not create the traditional "bump" under the riders leg and catching on the stirrup leathers. The stirrup leathers most likely are attached differently than a regular saddle and may not go around the tree bars conventionally. This may cause some complication for changing the lace up adjustment to buckles, but certainly can be done. The rear jockeys are laced to the skirts to create a housing for the tree without additional thickness of leather adding weight and expense. Keith

Ross, I like your saddle, and I want to help you with the finer points that can be elusive. I am being a bit more critical than necessary, but it looks like you are ready for some more advanced lessons to move to the next level. Lets see if I can answer your questions... You do want to have a complimentary shape in front as in back, but it is impossible to have a matching curve as it is not the same size, and you do not have the same space to fill. You do not want the skirt to extend as far in front of the tree as in the back, and you are getting too far in front. In order to make the front match the back, you need the longest point of the skirt to be higher up and not down in the center of the skirt. Make the longest point about where your breast collar dee is, and start sloping back from there. Remember that you have only about 2/3rds the depth in front as in back and you need to be straight by the time you reach the rigging, or close to it. You are not trying to copy the back, only compliment it. Do not be too dependent on specific measurements for where your rigging should be. Match it to the proportions of your saddle. Once your flat plate drops below the skirt, it has relief and is low enough. Unless you have a very shallow skirt for a very large horse, you do not have to drop the rigging extra low. Many drop riggings have gotten so low as to interfere with the shoulder movement of the horse, and require very short cinches. The "skinny" seat jockey looks emaciated next to the heavy swell. You went to a lot of effort to make a swell that has some mass and a powerful appearance, and the seat jockey needs to be proportionately massive. Also, over time the seat leather will shrink away from the swell leaving a gap at the back lower portion. This should be cut higher up the back of the swell, and with a little larger radius around the lower rear quadrant to better compliment the swell shape. A welt does not need to extend to over the top of the swell. The leather will stretch and shape a great deal, and you do not have to take out all of the slack with the welt. It is subject to excessive wear, and is unattractive. As Troy mentioned, you can run the welt in different places and at different angles... wherever and however you want. Make it compliment the rest of your design. When running it down the outside edge, it must run straight and centered. It is difficult advance beyond a certain level without assistance. You are advanced enough to need more than "basic" suggestions. I always have a WHY for everything that I do, and am happy to share it with you. Keep striving for greater precision and you will become more methodical and consistent in your work. I happen to like the squared corner cheyenne roll cantle bindings. I do them on a lot of saddles. Rounded are probably more appropriate for hard working saddles I suppose. Again, match them to your overall design. I hope this helps answer these questions. If you want more clarity or explanation, just ask and I will try to make it more clear. Respectfully, Keith

Great bag! Very nice tooling... excellent interpretation of traditional sheridan style. Bag construction is also great! Keith

Ross, Good looking saddle overall. Nice light oil color. Tooling looks good... can't see enough of it to comment on details. I am posting a picture with notes relating to parts on the saddle for more detailed critique. I will be happy to elaborate on the finer points if you wish. This is only meant to be helpful for you in the future and not to be discouraging in any way. I think the swell shape looks great. I have done several with 5" stock ans a lot of lip out the front. I think they look great. Had a couple of nice visits with your father this month... he seems like a fine craftsman also. Keith

Billy, You make me laugh! That is sooo true. Many years ago I was at a saddle show and saw this kind of work and thought I would not live long enough to get that good. It turned out to be great inspiration! Since then I have felt that it was just a matter of time and I could achieve anything I set my mind to.... recently I was in a clients home and realized that there was not enough time left in my life to make enough money to live like that. Humbling and somewhat discouraging at the same time. Keith

Even using handmade trees you will get the depressions where the nails hold the rawhide to the wood. Your ground seat leather will cover all of them in the seat and front side of the cantle. If they are deep enough to show through your swell cover and cantle back, you will need to glue a piece of leather over the swell and cantle covering the holes and skive the leather to shape the tree smooth over the nails. Keith

I sure understand about having pics for months and not getting them posted! Who has time for this shameless self promotion..... Exceptionally nice work Troy! Overall balance is very attractive to me. Thanks for posting this inspiration. Keith

In answer to your original question, when fitting a swell with a lot of undercut and using a welt or blind seam, you need to leave the bottom loose enough to pull over the swells after stitching, and then work out the slack around the bottom much like you would on a swell with a one piece ( no splits) swell cover. The leather will absorb an enormous amount of slack and not leave any wrinkles, especially thicker leather. It will also shrink a great deal allowing you to fit the swell a little loose, and then when finally installed, the wet leather will shrink down tight as it dries. Good luck! Keith

Guess I should have posted a pic of one of the bikes I have done.

Rick, I would help you by drawing a pattern for you. Also, if you want, I will draw the skeleton of a pattern and help you to draw the details in yourself to add your own style to the pattern, and that will help you to learn to draw better. How much detail will you want? What is your time frame? Keith

Well stated Jeff. Many unsuspecting consumers buy a "handmade" saddle expecting it to be better than a factory made by default, only to find out that the saddler is inexperienced and the saddle does not perform as well as a factory made would have. There was a lot of discussion in Sheridan at the leather show last week regarding the fact that a factory tree might fit the intended horse within tolerance as well as a handmade, and sometimes better. Keith

Are you looking to stock a store or for end user personal use? How much product and what quality?

I have read the information on this web site, and for the most part they are correct. There are several production tree shops and they make most of the trees used in most of the production saddles. Some of the production shops now make their own trees. It is true that some custom saddle makers use trees from these production shops to build their saddles. Most production tree makers provide a high and low quality tree. This is mostly due to the increased time sanding and covering the wood that comes from the same patterns and cutting machines. Most tree factories have a boat load of different bar patterns to choose from, some not fitting any horse on the planet! They do not have the luxury of fine tuning or adjusting an individual tree as a custom maker might. There is no reason that a factory saddle cannot fit a horse within the tolerance ranges of the horses intended. Most of the problems stem from erroneous practices of the designers within a company. Fitting horses is not a new science and is not really all that complicated, however, many of the tried and proven principles of years past have been forsaken, and sacrificed on the alter of making a profit in an ever changing market. The changing demands of the various riding disciplines as well as a more enlightened consumer has prompted the introduction of "new" trees that are specialized and target a new buyer. Most of the treemakers of the past generation are gone now and much of their knowledge with them. The new generation of tree and saddle makers sometimes fails to do enough proving of their new designs before unleashing them on the public. Many of these designs are based on what the designer "thinks" is correct to address an issue, when the end result may not correct, but worsen a problem area. There is a great deal of trial and error that goes into developing a new tree style and many times what we think will work in the shop does not preform as expected in the field. Some of the custom hand made treemakers have the same problem. Just because it is a custom tree does not insure that it will fit the horse properly. With custom trees, there are many more specifications that can be altered, and therefore more areas for potential mistakes. We no longer have the long apprenticeships to educate the next generation of makers properly, and so many do not have the proper experience to correctly design their trees or saddles to be truly "better." Most of what is talked about on the website referenced is accurate. There are a few things I would disagree with, but their principles of the overall balance of the rider and horse as it relates to the saddle are important and do get overlooked a lot. They talk about how to feel the saddle for proper fit and then ride the saddle to determine if it continues to fit properly during movement while carrying the rider. This is important, as the fit of the saddle on a standing horse is not the same as the fit on the horse moving and carrying weight. Many of a horses performance issues can be saddle related. Also many of the riders performance issues can be saddle balance related. This is a large topic and I could go on forever.... Keith

Based on the pic that you posted of the gullet and tape measure, The front gullet width is wide enough for most large size horses. The back gullet width, or the width of the bars inside the hand hole, is more critical, and cannot be seen in this pic. The saddler that you saw is in error regarding his blanket statements about gullet dimensions and horse fit, and not even evaluating your horse. 1/4" larger or smaller in the front gullet width is not a deal breaker, and in fact has very little affect in the final result. His desire to start with a 6 3/4" and finish 6 5/8"only allows for 1/16" of leather on each side. All skirts are thicker than that. Your thought regarding specific dimensions applying to regular, semi, and full quarter horses is also in error. Unfortunately, there is not industry standard, and remember... all trees are not shaped equally, and all treemakers do things differently! Gullet width has no bearing on bar angle and that is the primary difference between different builds of horses. This saddler gave you a false sense of despair. There are many ways to make this saddle fit acceptably on your horse. Do not lose hope, all is not yet lost. You would do well to talk to someone better qualified to help you understand your options. Talk to JW, or you may call me as well if you wish. My work phone is 307-587-1200. Keith

I have often wondered why hobby leatherworkers think it is wrong to re-wet leather while tooling. Do you think we professional saddlemakers tool entire saddle parts in one sitting without re-wetting? You give us too much credit. For a full fender, it will take a couple of hours to draw the pattern and usually 6-8 hours to stamp and another to do finish cuts. It is impossible to do this much work without re-wetting. You can case the entire fender and draw and cut what you can. Keep it in plastic when not working on it. Keep re-wetting the surface as necessary... once cased it is not necessary to wet thoroughly, just maintain the surface moisture. I prefer a sprayer to add moisture during the stamping process. Sprayed water is applied uniformly over the surface without pooling and over-wetting at the cut lines and stamped edges as a sponge does. If you wish, you can keep part of the project covered with plastic while you work on the rest. There are no rules preventing this. Just try to do all of the stamping at the same temper to avoid different burnishing colors and different depths. Keith

This is a good example of what I explained earlier..... Dry spots are caused by pressure points, not by the absence of pressure. Adding shims simply increased the pressure increasing the size and intensity of the existing pressure point. Also resulting in negative performance from the horse. Keith

I never liked them until learning how to stamp them on the bench. Now they are fairly easy. I have found that it has helped me get the cheyenne roll more precise as well. On the bench, you can make some adjustment in the final borders to make them more parallel that are not noticable on the cantle. I think you will like this method. best of luck, Keith

Hi Steve, With the cantle roll finished and ready to bind, and the cantle binding skived as I want, I glue both cantle and binding and let dry. ( this helps resist some stretching and gives some grip when fitting.) Then wet thoroughly and fit and shape binding top and back edge only. It is not necessary to wrap the underside at this point. Mark the borders where you want, remove the binding and flatten. Let the binding dry. I prefer it dry completely or nearly. Tape the back with a heavy mil packing tape... it will stick well to the glued surface. When you stamp, it will not stretch. Then let dry again before removing the tape. If you remove the tape while wet, it will expand. Before you re-wet to final fit, put a very light coat of oil over the tooling. This will prevent damaging the fine detail in the tooling when wet and re-fitting. The oil will be forced out by the water when re-fitting, and not leave any color. Stitch and finish as you normally would. Does this answer your question? Keith

Andy, I'm sure I am no more eloquent than any other of us, just misunderstood more maybe and therefore careful not to put my foot im my mouth unless I mean to. You are correct that when warmed up sufficiently a horse will sweat more evenly throughout the areas of varying pressure. Many riders, even experienced, put much too much emphasis on dry spots that may not cause any problems at all. A great percentage of horses do not sweat evenly over their whole back, rendering dry spots an unreliable tool in diagnosis. I am only concerned about the small pressure points that cause pain. Sometimes when ridden longer, these become less visible from the sweat migrating into these spots. Once I have determined that a horse is sweating normally, then when fitting a tree, I want to see the the earliest sweat pattern. That tells me where the pressure is and where there is none, without the "filling in" of the sweat into the medium pressure areas. I usually try to get the horse warmed up in a round pen or long line before saddling and then ride only 15 minutes or so, then strip the saddle to see where the horse and tree make initial contact. I also feel it important to test the fit in difficult terrain. Many times a saddle fits acceptably in an arena, but sores a horse badly in the mountains. Our current subject may be dealing with some if this with her current situation. The mountains can be a most unforgiving proving ground! Here, for example, trees with too much rock leave dry spots in the center that almost never show in an arena. If ridden too long, they usually sweat through, even though the horse is exhibiting discomfort. Just more information to complicate the field of saddlemaking even further! I mean no disrespect, and appreciate your point of view and the input of your experience. Have a good day my friend! Keith