kseidel

FromGastoHay, Corriente saddles are as lousy as the warranty! They are among the worst made production saddles. I would advise you re-evaluate your spending budget.... $700 is not much in todays market. It is less than the cost of feed for your horse in one year. You expect to get many years of satisfactory service from your saddle, and yet you are not willing to spend the equivalent of even one years maintenance of your horse. You would be much better off buying a better used saddle. Keith

Back on the soap box again... There is plenty of room up here for all of you who feel as strongly as I about the health and well being of our industry. When doing repairs on sub standard equipment, it is hard to know when to stop. You can't rebuild the entire product for a repair! I believe it is imperative that everyone doing leatherwork on equine products should have a working knowledge of the equipment, and make the hard decisions of what is acceptable and what is not, and then stand behind your work, good or bad. When we allow inferior work to go unpunished, it blackens the eye of an entire industry. If you are not qualified to do safe work, then do not do it. Nothing against hobby leatherworkers, but they are not trained professionals and may not be qualified to "fix the neighbors" tack. Many retailers are not knowledgeable in the area of safety and practical use of tack and are only interested in making the sale. Sure there are several ways to make something "work" but in Fred's case, a single ply off side billet is not acceptable. We professionals must recognize these things and either fix them to be safe, or refuse to work on the product. Many times this may mean loss of revenue, but it is ill gotten gains, that may result in injury. Fred, there many types of insurances available to protect yourself from financial ruin. It is unwise, and in some instances, illegal to conduct business without liability insurance. Since it can be expensive, many do not have such coverage. You may say "it costs too much" but in the long run it is just part of the cost of doing business. It is one of the reasons "hobby" leatherwork costs less than professional. If you cannot afford liability insurance, can you really afford to be in business? I encourage professionals to get the training and knowledge to be legitimate in your business, and to charge rates that reflect the costs of doing business responsibly. I caution hobbyists against doing work beyond your skill level, and not to charge for your work. When you accept funds for your work, you are no longer just a hobbyist, but considered a professional, and therefore liable for your actions. Sorry if this came out as a rant... Keith

Ethics in any field of business is a great source of debate. In most professions, there is a licensing requirement in order to practice that profession. Not so in certain areas of the livestock industry. Seems anyone who wants can declare themselves a horse trainer ( or saddle maker, or tree maker, or saddle fitter) and the public perceives them to be a knowledgeable and trained professional that knows what they are doing. In many cases they are no more trained or knowledgeable than any one else. It is one thing for an individual to use inferior tack for personal use. It is quite another for a professional. Many states have adopted the ruling that equine related activities are inherently dangerous and one participates at their own risk. The courts will not assess any blame for negligence on the part of the outfitter, trainer etc. Therefore some individuals take advantage of this situation to prey on the public making their living providing a service without proper equipment, training and precaution. Many injuries are caused each year -both to people and animals alike- from inferior tack used in professional endeavors and no one is held accountable because of the "inherent dangers." We should all work diligently to hold our related industries to a higher standard of professionalism! I do not want the government to interfere with the freedom of our industry, but if we do not police ourselves and refuse to engage in these unscrupulous practices, then we leave ourselves open for future regulation. OK, I will get off my soap box now and let someone else have it to voice their opinion. Keith

And much harder to tell then show! I make a "pillow" for my inlaid seats. Before cutting out the hole in the hard seat, shape a piece of 3-4 oz tooling leather to fit the dish of the seat, and let dry. Cut out the inlaid seat (Be careful to cut perpendicular to leather following shape) and use the cutout for a template to mark on the 3-4 oz tooling leather. This will be the bottom of the pillow. Trim about 3/4" around and skive to a feather edge. Use the inlaid seat cutout as a template and cut a piece of 3/8" closed cell foam rubber. Glue to the tooling leather, matching the line of the cutout. DO NOT SHAPE THE FOAM.... LEAVE EDGES SQUARE. Using the cutout for a template, cut a piece of chap leather of your choice for the top of the inlaid seat. Softer, and more stretchy leather works better than stiff. Thickness is not as critical. Cut about 1" larger than template. Skive to a feather edge all around and taper to about the edge of the template line, maybe a little more if leather is thicker. Glue to pillow sandwiching rubber between tooling and chap leather. Glue edges first, then top of rubber. Apply leather while glue is still wet on top, but tacky around edges. This allows you to move and stretch leather without tearing rubber. Using your fingers, press down around rubber and stick to bottom. Compress rubber about 1/8th inch and using a tickler or rub stick, stick tightly around edge of rubber. Keep the tooling leather flat. Do this on the ground seat... it is the shape you want to end up with. This creates the finished "pillow." Skive the underside of the hard seat around the hole, removing about half the thickness tapering about 3/4". Finish the inside edge of the hole. Carefully glue the pillow to the hard seat. Do this also on the saddle ground seat. Fit the hard seat tight to the edge of the rubber. Manipulate any way necessary to get a tight fit! Smooth edges underneath and skive off any small bumps. Stitch. When gluing seat down in final assembly, stretch tight side to side. Use care not to get any wrinkles in pillow. The seat will naturally want to collapse in toward the center of seat. This method is the only way I have found to get a consistent fit every time for everyone I have taught . Regards, Keith

Sorry to take so long to get back here... just been too busy to check the computer. Good question on the inlaid seat. I try to make the cut out as wide as possible to prevent the rider from feeling the edge. This can get quite close to the corner of the cantle. I make a "pillow" for my inlaid seats using a piece of firm 3-4 oz tooling leather for the bottom under the rubber. This gives the seat support from side to side allowing me to get closer to the corner without sacrificing integrity of shape. I am more concerned with comfort and then aesthetics at this point. I calculate the cutout to correspond to the lines of the cantle binding and the tooling borders of the dish and ears of the seat. There is usually about an inch to 1 1/4" from the ear cut of the seat. Your next question about my finishing process is a much bigger question. What specifically would you like to know about? And in how much detail? The basics... Color is a custom mixed color to be a rich chestnut, oiled to depth with olive oil. Antiqued finish is lacquer, Fiebings mahogany antique paste, and another lacquer. Background is dyed with chocolate dye. The real color is achieved with the oil. It takes several coats and several days to balance the color prior to final finish. Thanks for the compliments. Keith

HaHaHa You make me laugh this morning! All of those things you are saying, I feel the same about! Especially about keeping up with the pack and not getting the "memo." I do not get them either! When I do, I will be sure to forward it to you. Sewing machine needles are available in a plethora of styles. "S" point, "tri" point, "round" point, etc. LL (leather left) and LR (leather right) are chisel point needles that angle to left or right. I usually have to special order them. With the hook and awl machines, I use the chisel point awls and set them at an angle to achieve the same effect. Left or Right is personal preference. I use Left because it tracks straighter in the hook and awl machines. So I got the same look with the other machines by getting LL needles. I have been using Natural colored thread for nearly 20 years now, and it seems many others are doing the same. It is still hard to find in stock from most suppliers. I got mine from Eddington Thread Co. and they had a 25# minimum per size So I have a pretty good stock on hand. I do prefer Synthetic thread co., but they are harder to special order from and I have not found any supplier who stocks the sizes I want in the colors I want. I like a thread that is medium in stiffness. Soft and limp frays and unravels too easilly, and too stiff does not always lay well into the hook points, ending up in missed stitches, so for me medium lay works best. Also, I like lots of lubricant and that too varies between manufacturer. I have used both poly and nylon, and, though there certainly is a difference, I do not have a real strong preference. Love your comment about making up for times you forgot to use your maker stamp. There are so many times I have not planned for that stamp and had no place to put it! I love reading historians write about how a certain maker never made anything without his maker mark.... just proves how little they know about the real world of craftsmanship. Price? I think every time I make a purse, the price doubles for the "next one." I suppose I will never make any profit! And you are so right that there is always something to improve upon. It can be exasperating at times! I have enjoyed this exchange with you and the others. Thanks for brightening my day. Keith

I use 92/99 thread for a lot of things, since most of my work is done with hard leather (skirting), I like the 92/99 size best for smaller items. I seldom use 69 for hard leathers. I do use 69 for light weight leathers and garment leathers. Heavier chap still gets 99 or even 138. As for needle holes, I like angle holes. I set my awls at an angle for hook and awl machines, and use leather left needles for straight needle machines. I can get closer stitches with angle holes without "cutting" the stitch line. Besides, I like the look. Keith

On items like this I use 138 thread top and bottom and stitch at 10 stitches per inch. For saddles, I use 277 on top and 207 bottom and stitch at 8 stitches per inch. On strap goods requiring a bit heavier thread, I use 207 top and bottom and stitch at 9-10 stitches per inch. I like tighter stitching and a thread size that fills the needle holes, so I tend to use smaller needles and awls relative to thread size. Bob, I wrestle with maker stamp placement. I don't want my name all over an article, but I want it some place that it can be found, but not be the focal point. I usually put it under a flap like you have on your front panel. Some makers have put their mark in a flower center and some put shell borders around the stamp..., I just have not settled on how I like it best for me. I made a new handbag for my wife about a year ago, and at the last minute realized I needed silver and engraved rings for the handle. Thankfully I did not have a deadline to meet. I spent so much time making the insides and getting the construction precise that it made it less than profitable. I determined that I would charge $4500 for one like it. (It had a $1000 multi color gold concho on the front) I really do not care if I never have to make another one. HAHA In addition, I use natural color thread. I like the look of linen thread, but do not like it for durability. So I use a natural color of nylon thread. Question for you Bob.... You have a section of basket stamping on the back panel between two finished panels. Is there an outside back pocket? Why did you chose this type of construction? Always great to talk with you guys. Keith

Hey Bob, Beautiful job on the handbag! Nice use of the border stamp. Decorative knife work adds great accent. The insides take a long time to make and I appreciate the amount of effort you put into them. I respect the amount of time it takes to make a piece like this. The time to do extra nice work multiplies! Any critique on something this nice would be only personal preference. I feel that the maker mark on the back panel is unnecessary, as you already have one on the front panel. I would have liked to see it worked into the tooling with more imagination equal to the rest of the design. Also thread is a size smaller than I like on the construction of an item of this thickness. Silver hardware for the front closure and shoulder strap buckle are great. Matching hardware for the side strap attachments would have been a worthy finishing touch. Only my opinions... not criticism. Is this a custom order or is it for sale? How much do you charge for this bag? A beautiful job! Thank you for posting for us to admire. Respectfully, Keith

Use coarser sandpaper to sand the skived areas. Usually have to sand entire swell to get uniform nap. After oiling and finishing you should not see any noticeable skived area. The welt plugs are fairly common on higher grade saddles. sometimes very necessary to get a smooth welted swell cover. Keith

Good looking saddle Jon. If not new, you haven't used it very hard yet. Scratches are hard to hide on smooth leather. Nice overall design. Keith

Thanks Troy. I titled this just for you! And you are right, there fewer saddle pics posted lately. Guess we all betterpost some of our work more regularly. Keith

Thank you all for the compliments. I'm glad you like it. I know that I sure appreciate seeing work that others post, I just don't take the time to post many pics. That is an in-skirt rigging and the stitchline you see behind the rear billet is the back edge of the rigging plate. The rigging plate is a single piece overlay that covers the front of the skirt and extends to behind the slot which makes up the rear rigging. It extends up to the tree and creates a housing for the back bar. I feel the rear rigging is better supported by ending the rigging in this way and having the stitching to add rigidity. You can see the shape as demonstrated by the attach diagram.

I have had these pics on a cd for months and finally got some into the computer. This saddle won first place in the tooled saddle category at the 2010 "World Leather Debut" in Sheridan Wy. It was not published in the Leather Crafters And Saddlers Journal, so I thought I would post some pics on here. It is a 16" modified association 14" wide, 4"high X 13"wide cantle with 1 3/4" cheyenne roll. #4 Post dally horn with 3 1/4" cap. Fully tooled with a wyoming wild rose pattern with smooth leather under riders legs. The saddle features an inlaid padded seat, is fully lined and machine stitched @ 8 stitches per inch. Color is two tone chestnut. Note the seat is inset into the swell for a flush fit. Keith Gertsch made the tree, and Rob Schaelein made the sterling silver conchos. Thanks for looking. Keith Seidel

GrandpaJoel, I always allow a full 1/2" extra in tree length for finished seat measurement without padded seat. This allows a 1/4" of leather of swell cover, and 1/4" of seat leather covering the tree. More if making a saddle with a overlaid padded seat. JW and Nikkel's are correct regarding seat space. In addition to their comments, the pitch to the swell and the cantle also affect seat space. Different treemakers make the same parts with different angles. One may have an association swell leaned forward more and the cantle pitched back more, and therefore make the seat leg space smaller than someone else making the same association stood up straighter, and the cantle at a steeper angle and have a much longer leg space. To quote Denise "All treemakers do things differently." You must know how your treemaker builds his trees and there is a learning curve developing that relationship. You are no doubt learning that there is much trial and error learning to make saddles professionally. Keith

You have a good start on the overall pattern. A couple of suggestions from me... There needs to be more space allowed for each individual stem in the "main" stem. It may help to make the lower line of each stem longer. They should extend to about half way into the next stem. In most cases, about twice as long as you have drawn. Draw the center of the circle in first around the flower, and then the outside. Allow more space for the outside stems to blend. In addition, the extra items you have drawn in coming off of the main stem do not have enough room to make a smooth transition. They look disconnected. (reference each split off of the main stem around each flower, and especially around the center flower) When drawing the stemwork in around the flowers, always start drawing from the flower down and not up toward the flower. This ensures that all of the stems are in the correct order. The ones closest to the flower must be on top of the next one down, and so forth. The scrolls drawn in top and bottom off of the center circle make a distracting "straight" line going up and down and break up the circular flow of the overall pattern. They would be better drawn off of one of the corner flowers to fill the same space. That would also make more space in the center circle for a smoother transition. One other thing, The flowers in the bottom right and center have their main stem growing off of themselves, where all other flowers are at the end of their respective main stems. It is best to have all flowers at the end of the main stems and therefor an equal and uniform look. This is more difficult to draw but makes the pattern continue to flow throughout the entire piece with out a distinct beginning. Keith

Two things you are doing can make your work dark... 1) Oil. how you apply oil and how much you use will greatly affect the color. Try olive oil instead of neatsfoot and apply sparingly with sheepskin pad. Start with small amount of oil on pad and rub into leather. Do not leave pool on surface. Allow at least 12 hours before adding finish. 2) Your first coat of finish before antique must be a resist finish. Lacquer works best. Let dry before applying antique. Using a lighter color of antique will also help keep a lighter color. Tan Coat is fine for a final finish, but lacquer also works well and can lighten the final finish. Good luck Keith

These replies are correct. Reshaping a tree can be done, but it is very technical and few makers have the qualifications and equipment to do so correctly without making matters worse or causing other problems to arise. We need more information about your specific situation to properly advise you. Keith

Depends on what you mean by "raised." Is the nail coming out? Or is the head of the nail tilted? Is it on a dome or flat section? Maybe a picture would help. In any case, it is not that hard to fix, but I do not want to give you wrong info and make it worse. Keith

"Sheridan Style Carving" is a great book for defining Sheridan style carving, and certainly should be in your library, but it is by no means a beginner book. If you have a fundamental knowledge of leather carving and tooling, then it is perfect... however, if you are new to leather carving, than I would recommend other books that deal more with basics. Chan Geer has written some books that cover the basics better, as well as the older "How to Carve Leather" books by Al Stohlman that deal with fundamentals. One thing that you need to know is that it requires some different shapes of tools for Sheridan style than other styles. Studying work by other craftsmen is very helpful in learning pattern layout and variations of the looks within the style. Good look to you! It is a great adventure. Keith Seidel

Andy, That is a great looking saddle! We don't see too many Dee Ring riggings in buckaroo style saddles. I agree on the ostrich... kind of different to work with and seems wimpy for a saddle seat, but they are tough and I have never seen one worn completely through. I don't particularly like to ride them; most people say they can't feel the quills, but I sure do! Keith

I concur with Troy"s assessment. The seat leather is cut out of the wrong part of the hide. It is cut too close to the soft flank. The other side is firm because it is in a firm part of the hide. The surface is separating from the flesh inside the leather, causing the deep wrinkles. The technical term for this is "piping." It does not appear to be fitted incorrectly, just a poor choice of leather and hide placement. The only way to fix it is to replace the seat. It should be covered under the warranty as a defect in materials and workmanship, but good luck getting them to replace it. Saddles made with proper leather will not do this even with a great deal of abuse. Keith Seidel

Hard to answer this question thoroughly without pics and some clarification. It is not possible to make a cantle higher. There are, however, ways to make the "ridge" disappear. Usually feeling the outside edge of the cantle is a function of the ground seat dish shaped too close to the cantle. Sometimes too much dish, sometimes too far back. Removing the seat and re-shaping the ground seat can increase support of the rider in the dish of the seat before you come in contact with the top outside edge of the cantle. Usually the original seat can be reinstalled without the more costly replacement of a large prime piece of leather. Keith

This has been an interesting topic, and I have not had time to reply. I will put a one piece swell cover on most swells without a lot of undercut for the leg. All roper styles up to 15" wide, Associations up to 14", BW with 8" high gullet up to 14" and with 9" gullet up to 13". Will James and Tiptons up to 13". I have done a low moose 14", but never again! I use welts for "Form Fitters", Lewellens, Ellensburgs, Miles Citys, etc, that have higher corners and lots of under cut leg. My method of fitting is a little different. I wet fit the swell cover, let it dry, and then take off and trim, skive, and roll front, then re-install and glue for a final fit. This initial fit up takes only 20 -30 minutes. After it dries and shrinks tighter around the swell, it is much easier to get the edges correct and glue in place. Like many others, I also cut the swell cover from the center of the belly with handhole to the bottom. Like Troy, I level the swell thickness to about 10/11 oz. Thicker leather stretches and shrinks more than thin. With the horn hole cut and skived, I wet the cover and roll it up and bend it over the side of the tub, then dunk again and roll the other direction and bend over tub. This loosens up the fibers and allows the leather to get thoroughly wet. Then I pull over the horn and pull both sides straight over the center of the swell from side to side, putting a nail on each side to hold it centered. Then I smooth the slack in front of the horn and down to the front corner where the gullet and bar meet, and put a nail there. I pull some slack to the front... as much as possible without making a big bubble around the gullet front, but keeping the front edge as straight out as possible allowing enough slack to roll under. Then I push as much slack as I can into the hand hole... pulling around from the back of the swell also. Cut and fit corners of hand hole around ground seat. Now I am fitted around horn and front and back and side pinned in place. Now all I have to do is shape the front between the gullet and bottom center, and the back from the ground seat to the bottom center. This is where the "work" comes in. I also use an hammer and piece of leather, as well as rub sticks and such. Curved sticks like the inside of a seat stick also work well. I have had very good results using a stapler to hold the leather in place and work out the bubbles as they hold a wider area than a single nail. If using nails, I only use two or three in each side front and back. On swells with more undercut, I may use a strap or a rope around the bottom edge and thru the gullet to hold and work out the wrinkles. Once this is all fitted, I put in front of a fan, and dry several hours. When dry, I mark gullet line in front and back and take off. Then I can trim edge and roll front and pink back gullet, and skive all edges to lay smooth under the seat. Then it is ready to glue into place. I put a layer of glue on the swell cover and on the swell. I use contact cement. Let the glue dry. Then wet again... medium moisture, not soaking wet. Then apply a heavy layer of glue to the swell only and put the swell back on using the same order as originally used for fitting, and using the nail holes and hand hole cuts for placement. The wet cement allows the swell cover to slip around and be manipulated into place easily. I usually do not need any nails to hold around the bottom as it will slip right into place, and the cement will hold. I use a spike to stretch the front gullet line tight and nail in place. Nail off the underside of the back gullet, and smooth with rub stick. As it dries, it will shrink a great deal and set real tight. Troy said it is not as difficult as it sounds, but it is not easy either. But with practice and perseverance, it is possible to make it perfect every time. I do a lot of swells with the seat recessed into the swell, and this is much harder. It is these that make my hands remember all the years fitting saddles and complain! Great fitting! Keith

I have found that the single ply cinches tend to stay in place on the horse the best. Roper cinches are stronger because the strands are doubled. As Jim said, they are woven together several inches from each ring, and then spread flat in the center. They are usually 29 - 31 strands. The single ply cinches have looser strands, and intertwine with the horses hair and tend to hold their place better than doubled roper cinches. A 19 or 21 strand double diamond or three bar 100% mohair cinch in the correct length would give you satisfactory results. I stock these in my store and can get them for you in extra long lengths if you need additional assistance. Keith