kseidel

rdl123, I will try to weigh in here a bit. First of all, for your second saddle, you should be very pleased. Many people build for a lifetime and never make a saddle this nice. This makes it harder to critique! I am sure you learned lots of things making the last two that you would change in the future. I will try to point out a couple of things as well. As has been pointed out, the horn edge needs improvement. Generally speaking, an slight dome to the horn cap is more desirable. You lost your dome by not folding the bottom apron low enough and then not pounding your filler low enough. You want the filler to be centered between the top and bottom of the finished horn. In order to accomplish this, you have to get the filler below center during the covering process, as the top cap is the thickest piece. I advise the use of a palm sized block plane for smoothing the outside shape of the cap and then using larger edgers to round the corners. I will talk about burnishing edges here... most of us despise that job, but it must be mastered. Best method requires getting the edge wet enough to take a burnish. I like to use bar glycerine to help slick the edge, and then use a canvas rag and follow with a hardwood stick to get a hard packed edge. This is effective for all of your edges. Rigging and fenders have both been mentioned. These fall under the category of DESIGN. Your first picture shows a good profile showing the basic design elements of the saddle. Given the fixed requirements of the fenders, and seat length, the rest of the saddle should have been designed around these features. When I look at the first pic, I notice the skirts ( seat, riggings and jockeys) being too deep for the length and fender size. At this stage of your saddlemaking, I advise against using established patterns. Rather, create new patterns for each saddle as its own unique design. If the skirts were made shallower to balance with the fenders and seat, then the overall look would be more balanced. As it is, the saddle looks out of balance. As has already been stated, the riggings are too low... not so much in front, but a lot in back. CWR is correct saying that the top of the rear dee should be hidden under the jockey. The seat jockey should also not drop below the skirt, but land somewhere between the skirt and jockey lines, I would like to see the skirt extend a bit farther behind the cantle. I like 5½"-6½", depending on skirt shape. Your inlaid seat is fairly well executed, however, back to design, it is too narrow. From a functional standpoint, it should be as wide as practically possible to avoid feeling the edges with ones pin bones. Some tooling is in order in the dish of the seat. You have done some stamping on all of the pieces, except the dish of the seat, and the cantle binding. These areas really stand out as out of place. Your hand stitching looks really good. I can't see the horn very well, nor under the cantle, but what I can see looks very good, The Cheyenne roll could be shaped down more around the back edge. It should lay flat or have a downward slope. Yours slopes upward. The ends of the cantle are covered well at the junction of the seat. However, here they loose their shape. It works better to make your seat ear cut higher up the cantle, and not have to run your Cheyenne roll so far down to get under the seat. Horn wrap... you stated earlier that you will be pulling the tail to gather slack as the horn is used and the rope tightens the wrap. Since this is happening to you, it indicates that you are not pulling all of the stretch out of your wrap when installing it on the saddle. Soak the wrap in HOT water until saturated. then strip all excess water out and allow to case for 10-15 minutes. Then wrap around the horn and use a chinaman to work out ALL of the stretch. Then allow to dry completely. If you do this properly, there will be no additional stretch in the horn wrap. I am not criticizing how you wrap the horn. That is a common style of wrap. Just pointing out that whatever style of wrap you use, you need to get all the stretch pulled from the leather when first installing. Most makers struggle with this. I hope my observations are helpful, and not discouraging. You have done a great job making this saddle and I only offer my comments to help you improve faster with less pain and suffering. Respectfully, Keith

Your ground seat should be good once you get the last piece in place. As far as the rear rigging, with rivet in dees, I like to keep the rivets below the tree. Keep it as high as you want, and keep your skirts and jockeys short, but consider trying to keep the rivets below the tree for the sake of the rivets damaging the rawhide. Keep up the good work. Keith

Sorry no one replied to your last post. I must have missed it. Your rigging looks like it is a good fit for position on that tree on that horse. Some concern regarding the rear rigging position height... It may be too high relative to your skirts/jockeys. As far as the front, cut an arc inside the ring, as opposed to the straight line. As far as the cut out for the stirrup leathers, your space is adequate. You can do all the skiving on the "inside" of the rigging parts and then not have to skive a big bevel on the surface. That always seems like a poorly planned after-thought to me. Curious how your saddle is progressing?

If you want borders around the tooling, than it is best to tool it after it is installed. No need to stamp immediately, you can re wet and stamp it after the swell cover is installed and skirts are fit for border placement. If you don't need borders, than you can stamp it past the edges flat on the bench, and then install.

Most tree swells or forks are made either from a single piece of wood, or are constructed with 3/4" boards, laminated together crossing several directions to achieve the stock thickness. The crossed grain and different laminations combine to achieve enough strength from twist and stress from many directions. Many makers also use a layer of marine grade plywood thru the center for additional strength.

For your first saddle a blind stitch will be easier than trying to sweat on a one piece without welts. Stohlman covers it fairly well in his second volume page 278-295. This describes the method for lacing. The blind stitch is very similar. Instead of punching holes for lace, you would punch holes with an awl diagonally thru the edge of the swell cover. Make your stitch line about 5/16" from the edge and holes about 5/16" apart. The hold should come out the edge just below the grain. With the swell cover inside out, butt the edges together and begin stitching thru the holes at the top and work your way down, lining up each side one hole at at time. Use a long piece of waxed thread with a needle on each end and run both needles thru each hole, one from each side, and X the thread between holes. Do not fit the swell cover too tight! It is important to allow extra size to facilitate installing the cover over the swell once stitched, and also to allow for shrinkage. If too tight, when it dries, the stitching will show. Don't worry about being a bit too loose, as it is fairly easy to absorb the slack around the bottom of the swell. Hope this helps. Keith

Hard to describe in detail in words. What kind of tree? How wide? What style of saddle? Lots of variables. Are you using a book or video to make your saddle? Maybe you are an experienced saddlemaker wanting to learn a new technique... I'm happy to help you but need more information. Keith

I am seeing some real red flags here. The horse pictured is not that hard to fit and does not require a tree with a 10+" gullet width. Flatter bar angles, yes, somewhat wider gullet widths, yes, but not that extreme. You stated that the standard size tree "sat to far back and was restricting movement at the back of the shoulder blade." The tree is supposed to sit behind the scapula. If it sits over the scapula it will restrict shoulder movement, and cause a sore horse. (and many other problems) In addition, if you are just cutting a tree swell and adding 2" blocks on either side of the horn, that is an unacceptable method for building the tree. Without lamination running different directions throughout the swell, it will not be strong enough and will break. Please understand, I mean no offense, but I am seeing some conflicting things happening here. Respectfully. Keith

You should be using full thickness premium cut skirting for the outside of a flat plate rigging, and at least 10 oz for lining. You can skive it thinner, as I described before, where the rigging lays over the tree. I use skirting or harness for lining. I feel latigo has too much stretch over the long-term.

There are some variables depending on rigging style, however, best rule is to run linings to the swell and cantle, ensuring that you have doubled leather where the screws will be. You do not need to be full thickness, but I advise at least half thickness for lining and three fourths for top rigging leather. Once you get past the area where the cantle rosette will be a couple of inches, the balance of the rigging extending around the cantle can be single ply.

Cheryl, Thanks for the compliment. Some of these concepts are difficult to draw in words! Here are a couple of pics... the drawing is a pattern I recently did for a saddle seat, and the other pic shows the panel on the finished saddle. This shows how the higher stems extend thru the stems below.

I certainly do have established and proven patterns for the different styles of saddles that I build regularly. These patterns have evolved much like the other men have posted. Once a good pattern is established, you can save it to heavy poster board, or HDPE, or whatever you like, for re-use many times. I have two walls full of patterns! This certainly helps develop consistency in your saddles. Keith

Anna, First of all, your work looks nice and clean. It looks like you did not block your skirts under the tree. If you did, probably could have been higher. After blocking your skirts, and before making your rigging top plate, while the skirts are still wet, you should put your draw down strap over the saddle and pull the skirts down to help shape them to the shape of the horse. I even put several pieces of filler leather under the strap to set the skirt in the correct shape. This greatly reduces the amount of break-in needed on the finished saddle. Then, your rigging should be made to conform to this shape. At this point, due to glued surfaces, it is difficult to get the skirt wet enough to properly shape it. However, get it as wet as possible and try to shape those skirts to the shape of the horse. My main concern with those skirts is the slope behind the cantle. It comes off quite straight and does not appear to follow the rock of the tree bar. If it is too low, it will rub on the horse and may lift the bar off the horse. This pressure can be a real problem for the horse. You may have to cut the skirts apart at the back and leave them loose. As Oltoot says, a 7/8ths rigging position would be better, but your placement is workable. I agree with BonboBob that your fenders should be a bit longer. Even an inch would be better. A shaped fender does give a lot more support under the riders knee. An exposed stirrup leather can rub the rider also. I too advise getting your seat shaped and tacked onto place when doing a test ride. The feeling of everything- rigging and ground seat- will feel different. You do not have to have the seat final cut, just rough cut and shaped. Hope this is helpful. Keith

A saddle is not something to experiment with. It is not a belt or spur straps, or even saddlebags. It involves molding and shaping leather around curves. There is very little flat work. It also requires an understanding of balance and fitting to provide proper function, both for the rider and the horse. Get a book or video and study it prior to building. There are plenty of areas to "burn yourself" on even after studying all the available information! Leatherwork is a great hobby... SADDLEMAKING is not! You could build an airplane in your garage without instruction, but would you really expect it to fly? The Al Stohlman book, as Josh mentioned is a great resource. Also Harry Adams saddle shop manual, Jeremiah Watt or Dale Harwood videos, ANY published information is better than none! No reason to start out with a handicap. Keith

You do need to make plans to go to the Sheridan Leather show. It is our annual pilgrimage to pay homage to the King! You could easily make a mini vacation out of it. I do not have plans to teach this class again any time soon, but you are not alone in your request. We are planning to record the class, and if it comes out ok, will have it available later.

For the first time available to the public, renowned saddlemaker Keith Seidel will be teaching a clinic on how to design and create patterns for any saddle. This clinic will be held in conjunction with the Sheridan Leather Show May 16, 2015. This link will take you to the enrollment page with the Leather Crafters and Saddlers Journal. http://www.leathercraftersjournal.com/product.cfm?product=709 For more information or questions, email keith@seidelsaddlery.com. I hope to see you there!

Because of the oils and tallows stuffing latigo, it is difficult to get glue to stick reliably to latigo leather, regardless how dry it may seem. Even with a tin strainer, it will be difficult to keep the dish stuck tight into the tree. You can only nail it down so well. Cement is and important element in ground seat construction.

It looks to me like about 5/6 oz total material on each side to create the box joint would be about as thin as would be possible to make a nice stitch with this set-up. Other variations to get to a similar thickness at the stitch line would work also. Total thickness of material wt the stitch line would be a minimum of about 1/8"+.

Randy, Dees can always be mounted into a flat plate rigging or skirt rigging, even after the saddle is finished. Can sometimes be difficult, but still possible. If you are giong to hang them up with the latigo carriers, then make yourself a breast collar that is open at the throat and curves up to the dee. As Oltoot said, as long as everything lines up and fits the horses curves, then it will work fine. Lots of buckaroo saddles have the BC dees at the latigo carriers. Here is a pic of a saddle made by Ross Brunk that shows a nice BC dee combined with the latigo carrier. Keith

It depends on the style of breast collar you want to use. If you hang them high with the latigo hangers, then you need a breast collar made to ride there. For standard shaped collars, the Dees should be about the bottom of the tree bar mounted in the skirt or flat plate rigging.

Yes, RMR, the guide is a necessary part of the equation. The box being stitched determines how the machine will need to be adjusted. Thickness of leather and thread size/ stitch length will affect how far from the edge the stitch line needs to be. The farther from the corner you move the stitch line, the thicker the material will be at the stitch line. It is necessary to hold the work tight against the guide to maintain uniform border spacing for the stitch line. The angled foot is a Randall/Campbell part with the center cut away for awl allowance keeping the bottom edge of the foot very close to the stitch line. Attached is a scan of the page from the Campbell/Bosworth catalog showing the available attachments for box stitching.

I use all of these accessories for stitching box corners. Depending on the application as to which bottom plate or which foot. Keith

Trox, the pics I posted are attachments on a Randall machine. I have a few other parts that are variations on the theme. I'll post more pics tomorrow. I believe you could modify a set of feet on your 441 clone and you would need to make our modify a lower plate to have at least a 30° angle. You should not need to modify the work guide. Needle deflection will be the greatest hurdle. Joining a steeper bevel on the right our inside side of the needle will help drive it straight through the leather with minimal deflection. Uniform feeding may also be a problem without the assist of lower feed dogs. A larger needle may be necessary for less flex. Good luck!

Oltoot, It seems we are not on the same page. I too have a Union Lock and have the single toe feet for stitching right next to an object or edge. The raised bottom plate is great for stitching stirrups, but as you stated, setup requires a lot of adjustment to raise the lock above the plate and to be hidden inside the leather. What we are referring to is a fixture to allow the machine to stitch the 90 degree corner of a case with the thread passing thru at a 45 degree angle. This requires the bottom of the foot to be angled shallow on the outside of the machine, and a bottom plate that is angled low on the left. This allows space for a square corner of a box to sit under the foot at a 45 degree angle and the stitch to follow around the box. this was popular for binocular cases and camera cases in the '40's. It requires that the leather be beveled at 45 degree angles and assembled to create a square (box) corner. It is quite difficult to do this kind of work well, and nearly impossible without the proper attachments. The picture illustrates the attachment foot and bottom plate that is needed for box stitching. Keith

In your pic, it looks like you are running the item being stitched on the right hand side of the foot, inside the throat of the machine. Is this correct? I see you also used a raised bottom plate to achieve relief on the bottom.