kseidel

Fitting a Hubbard style seat where the seat and swell are one piece of leather can be very challenging. Having had to re-do one yourself, you have learned how difficult it can be. It is easiest to shape the seat and split the swell cover from the hand hole thru the center of the horn, pulling the extra slack to the center, and then braiding or stitching the leather back together behind and in front of the horn. Most use a scallop front gullet roll to cover the split in front of the horn. The type of swell has a lot to do with the level of difficulty and functionality of this style of seat. With your aussie style tree, you may be able to cut out holes for the "ears" that make up the swells and fit the one piece over the remaining swell. This shouldn't be too hard to shape the leather. Harder to get the holes positioned correctly. Good Luck, Keith

I don't think you can convert a standard tree to a cable rigged tree safely. You could change the entire tree in the saddle to a LaPort cable rigged tree, but I would not try to do an after market modification to add a cable rigging to an existing tree. You can repair the broken bar, just depends on the type of tree construction and end use. Best to remove the tree and send to Precision Tree Co. They will accurately duplicate that bar and replace it using the original tree. That way the leather will fit back on correctly. Keith

I have been using contact cement (S18 or XL8) for woolskins for over 20 years. I used to use barge and XL8 rubber cement, and had to much trouble with the cement releasing and the woolskin tearing, thus having to be replaced prematurely. Since using contact cement, I have only had to replace a few for genuine wear requiring replacement. I know It is harder to remove with contact cement, but since I seldom have to replace them, I am still saving time over the rubber cement being easier to remove. The contact cement also repels moisture better, and I have much less problems with sweat thru skirts. This is especially beneficial for in-skirt riggings. My vote is for contact cement! Keith

5shot, Assuming that you are hand stitching this 90 corner, there are a couple of things that will improve the look of the stitching on the back side. Wetting and lightly casing the leather will help the hole to cut and swell without tearing out the back side. Also sharpen the widest edges of your diamond shaped awl from the tip to the widest point. Narrow, thin, awls work best for this kind of work. You want the awl to cut thru the leather, not tear. And make sure you are punching your holes on a diagonal, not long point to long point. Keith

Neat lac is the resist of choice for most professionals. Bag kote and Tan Kote are same products, and work best as top coats for a satin finish. They do not work very well as a resist.

Dan, To adjust the stirrup length, you simply pull the fender down exposing the top of the fender and the stirrup leather. Then make the adjustment and reset the fender in the correct position. Most saddles that have this kind of adjustment use a lace attachment. For this saddle, I made a special buckle that simply hooks into the stirrup leather and is sandwiched between the seat and tree when in riding position. Don't do that! Many years ago I was at a show and saw some of the finest saddles that I had ever seen. I wanted to go home and sell all my tools and quit. Eventually I saw it as a challenge to make better saddles myself. I figured that one day they were at the same level as I and if they could get that good, then maybe I could too! That was about 20 years ago. I hope to meet you as well. Keith

I haven't posted here in some time, and many of you have asked to see pics of this saddle. I named this saddle"Ranahan". It is a full mother hubbard style saddle where the entire top of the saddle is molded from a single piece of leather without any splits or seams. I combined the swell cover, seat, riggings, skirts, and jockeys into a single piece. The inlaid seat is alligator. (I wanted tiles graduating from small to large, and the only part of the skin that does that is the throat. This is the throat cut from a 12 foot gator.) Keeping with the one piece theme, the fenders and stirrup leathers are made from one piece of leather, without the traditional buckles. Adjustment is at the top of the fender. Stirrups are specially shaped to complement this saddle. Final weight of this saddle is 26 pounds. Many hours went into this saddle both in its design as well as construction. It is a culmination of a lifetime of development. It has been shown at the Cody High Style show; Wichita Falls, TX Saddlemaker show where it won Best tooling, Best workmanship, and Best of Show: National Finals Rodeo in Las Vegas; High Noon western americana show in Mesa AZ; and Trappings of the American West in Alpine, TX. This saddle has been sold! Keith Seidel

I do like Kent Frecker's trees. This saddle may work fine for your horse. I would want to know the gullet measurements before committing. The most common areas of saddlefit that cause problems in training are pinching whithers in the upper gullet range (which causes them to buck with their head down) and excessive rock putting too much pressure in the middle of the back (causing the horse to hollow his back and resist collection). Seat size is relative to many factors in western saddles. The amount of leg room is more important than actual distance from horn to cantle. This is affected by swell shape and angle; cantle height, width, and angle; and how the maker shapes the seat. None of these factors are present in an english saddle. Fitting for ladies can be controversial since we are talking about the woman's shape! Some ladies have smaller hips, seat, and thighs; most have larger. With a wade tree you do not have swells to interfere with your legs, but you still have to decide how close you want to be to your horn. Personal preference is the final factor determining your choice. I am sure I will be coming to Jackson sometime this summer. Will have to wait till runoff is done, but can come for fishing trip then. PM me your phone # and I will call you when I am coming your way. Keith

Teddy, Nice looking sire of your colt! If he turns out anything like that you will have a great horse! I fit a lot of big ranch horses that are similar in size and the overall conformation is similar to some big morgans that we see in this country. As an adult, he will not be difficult to fit. My concerns are fitting him now and over the next 4 years without creating resistance in training due to poor saddle fit. This year is probably not as critical as you will not be riding him very hard or long, and under controlled environments. The borrowed Crates with some attention to padding may be acceptable. Your questions regarding angles and rock.... Those are hard concepts to describe in words without pictures and hand gestures! Yes, rock refers to the curve in the bars from front to back like the rockers on a rocking chair. Gullet angle is the angle from side to side. It relates to the slope of the horses side of shoulder from center straight out (perpendicular) from the spine. Mutton whithered horses are flatter, and thoroughbreds are steeper. Hope that is clear. Of the saddles you mentioned, the Frecker is far superior. I am sympathetic to the entry saddle for $4500. Especially with the possibility of not fitting later. You would most likely get a couple of years out of it anyway. The Lady Wade at 14" is pretty small, even for a small frame lady. There is a fairly good resale market for used saddles, but you take a pretty big hit from the new price. Best if you can find one used that will suit you to optimize economics. I have a slightly used wade in the store that may work for you. It is made by Chuck Treon of Weatherford, TX. It is a Hamley Wade style tree and the tree was made by Warren Wright of New Zealand. It is a 15 1/2" seat, round skirt, 3/4 flat plate double rigging, all smooth finish. Weighs 32#. price $3500. You would have to abuse it pretty hard to drop the value much below that. I'll post a pic if you are interested. I think it will probably fit your horse adequately for the next 3 or 4 years, after that, who knows. This tree has a 6 1/4" front and 4" back gullet width and 12 3/4" bottom bar flare. What that means is that it is pretty standard quarter horse angles and size. Bar pads are pretty flat which allow for heavier muscle under the bar. Just another option. You may not like it at all. I am always looking for an ex to go to Jackson for a fishing trip! Do not have plans for any visits before June 1. It would be easier to go thru thru the fitting process here at my shop, but I can bring the stuff to Jackson also. ( I have trees and minimal skirts so you can see the fit) Billy, I'll try to post some pics of that Mother Hubbard saddle. I should have posted them sooner.... time,you know. Keith

Teddy, I do not have a lot of experience fitting Andalusians. Typical problems with McCalls are too much rock in the bars for young horses. This can be fixed with a panel pad and removing the center panels. (panel pads are from Diamond Wool)The Timberline tree is a good tree and their FQH is wider at the bottom in relation to their QH bar. Gullet width is important, but can also be turned with padding. Most western saddles are built to fit properly with proper padding relative to the size of horse under the saddle. Generally speaking, larger horse = less padding, smaller horse= more padding. You need to pad to fill the space in the gullet between the horse and the saddle... side to side, not top. The angle of the front bar pad is one of the more critical areas of fit. You do not want too wide at the bottom! Typically most young horses are steeper in the whither area and need a regular QG bar, or even a semi QH bar. A full QH bar is usually too wide for immature backs. It looks like you are in Jackson Hole WY, and are not that far from where I am in Cody. I would certainly be able to assist you in fitting if you want. I know John from Flat Creek Saddlery well, but do not know his level of expertise regarding fitting. You are right in that western saddles are much harder to asses the fit than english. Also, the woolskin offers a great deal of soft padding, and true fit is not readily visible until wool is compressed, further complicating the matter. Keith

Teddyi, My sympathies for your situation. Young horses can be difficult to fit. In addition to the prominent shoulders and under developed withers, they also have a straighter back. Saddles for mature horses tend to pinch over the wither area, slip side to side, and stick up in back. However, making a saddle to fit this horse now is not practical, as it will only fit for a very short time and then need to be replaced. Professional trainers riding young colts constantly would benefit from having saddles made to fit that type of back, but not many others. You can, however, make a mature horse saddle fit within tolerance by adjusting padding. Specialty pads are readily available, and are not nearly as expensive as saddles. For your Andalusian, make sure your saddle is wide enough at the top of the bars to allow enough room for the horse and steep enough to make contact at the bottom of the bars without pinching at the top. You can use a panel pad to relieve rock and create extra room in the wither area. Good luck Keith

I have to say that is pretty impressive! I know firsthand the amount of hours and dedication it takes to do a project like this, and my hat's off to you! Was this a commission job? How will it be mounted and displayed? Keith

Waxed thread remains bonded better during the hand stitching process, and the wax both acts as a lubricant and helps to hold the stitch tight while moving from stitch to stitch. Machines hold tension on the thread while moving from stitch to stitch. Wax is necessary when using linen thread in a machine. You can also hand stitch with bonded machine thread. Extra care must be taken to maintain proper twist and stitch tension. Keith

No argument from me Chris. I once had a man work for me who also used a "low angle" blade to great success. I certainly agree on the standard angle blades that they are more "detail" blades. Using your blade as you do produces the same effect in the same manner, with less movement of the wrist required. Only fault, if there is one, is that you can only use one corner of the blade for cutting. With the straight blade, when one corner starts to drag, I can simply turn around and use the other, resulting in less stropping. I have found your technique especially useful for carvers who like shorter handles, and hold the yoke deeper on the finger, closer to the palm of their hand. There is not as much movement available holding the knife this way, and therefor harder to tilt the blade back far enough on its corner to get enough relief for smaller turns. I appreciate your input with that information. Not many use a low angle blade, and not many available for purchase. Most would not think of grinding a blade as you have. Your work certainly shows your mastery of your knife. Keith

You did not request a critique, but since you posted a pic, I will make some observations relative to this thread. The one thing that stands out the most relative to the angle blade being used is that the cuts end rather abruptly, rather than gradually growing shallower. With the straight blade you can simply flatten the blade (increase the surface area touching the leather) as you progress thru the cut, and the depth of the cut will gradually get shallower and taper to a graceful ending. This makes it easier to bevel your stems so that they gradually disappear. One other thing, if you want to do accurate Sheridan style tooling patterns, you will want to draw your stems out much longer. The lower long line of each stem should extend past the stem below it and half way down the one below that. Your stems are currently ending at the top of the stem just below. Hope you understand this... it seems much clearer in my mind. If necessary, I can draw you and example. As far as knife size, I use the 3/8's" blade for most everything. However, I do use a 1/4" for small items like watch bands and hat bands. Respectfully, Keith

Congratulations Darcy!

With the angle blade, you only have the tip or corner of the blade in the leather. It is difficult to make long straight cuts as well as larger curves with an angle blade. They are great for very small corners and fine detail work as in figure carving. With a straight blade, you can have the corner in the leather, and have the option of having more of the blade in the leather as well. The more blade that is contacting the leather, the larger the arc that will be carved smoothly... the knife will follow itself. To clarify, for straight lines like borders, having as much blade in the leather as possible helps make those long straight cuts without waves. For making smaller corners, you simply tip the knife back to have less blade in the leather, and then twist the barrel of the knife. The knife will follow the leading edge of the blade in the leather, and will make a smooth small curve. More blade, larger curves; less blade, smaller curves. To make a finish cut with a wider tip tapering into a fine cut, simply add a little twist when starting the cut with the tip deeper into the leather, then flatten the blade as you go (increasing the amount of blade in the leather) and lighten the pressure. The blade will start deep, then track shallower and make a longer curve. Use caution to avoid forcing the knife forward while making the tighter curves... This causes flat spots and points in your curves. Just twist the barrel of the knife keeping steady downward pressure on the yoke and let the blade follow itself thru the curve. Sounds easier than it is, especially when one is used to pushing the knife. It takes practice to master, but well worth the effort,,, and removes much of the fatigue associated with carving. Keith

I have the Henley knives as well and like them also. Only significant difference is that Smith's new cobalt blade does not drag and does not need stropped much at all. A very unexpected yet welcome side effect. Keith

Not much need for an angle blade with floral carving. They are nice for figure carving and some lettering, but not for floral work. By controlling the sharp edge of the blade, you can make a variety of different cuts. By keeping a lot of the blade in the leather, you can make long smooth cuts like borders and large arcs, and, by using only the corner you can make very small curves and tight corners. By adjusting the amount of blade in the leather, you can change the look of your cut with minimal effort and achieve much smoother cuts. The "thick" cut you refer to in decorative cuts is achieved by manipulation of the blade, not by a thicker blade. I use the same blade for all my floral work...from cutting in the pattern to final finish cuts. I like Chuck Smith's cobalt blade, thin, straight, 3/8" hollow ground. Keith

RMR, I was a die hard user of heel shaves and spoke shaves for many years, and had a full set of heel shaves. I finally learned to use the dreaded potato peelers, and found them to be more user friendly. When you hit a nail and nick the blade on your heel shave, you cuss and spend the next hour re-sharpening your blade. With the peeler, you simply change the blade and get back to working on your ground seat. You can easily sharpen the peeler on a buffer and cheaply replace it when it wears out. Heel shave ha to be re-adjusted each time you strop the blade. Blades are much more expensive to replace. Initial investment is much less. You can spend your time sharpening tools, or shaping ground seats. I learned to use the peelers and sold all my spoke & heel shaves, and have never looked back. Good luck, Keith

I make mine 1.5" -1.75" wide and usually need about 5.5 -6 feet long for wood post horns. I also skive the edges like Bruce. Not too thin for mulehide as the edges won't wear well if too thin. There is an art to installing them. Soak them in HOT water until wet. wipe dry and let set for 10 minutes or so, then rub both sides thoroughly with paste saddle soap. This serves as a lubricant while stretching into place, and an adhesive to help hold when dry. Stretch on as tight as possible, using a stick or handle to get as tight as possible. Then use a chinaman strap to stretch it further. You may need to wrap several times to get it straight when tight. I usually have to do them 2 or 3 times. Let them dry for 2 or 3 days before using so they will shrink as tight as possible. When installed properly, they never slip or come loose. Keith

It should be noted that a hook and awl machine cannot be used for sewing textiles. It is strictly a leather machine. If you are needing to stitch both leather and textiles like webbing or canvas, the straight needle machines are the better choice.

I have a Landis 3, a Union Lock, 3 Randalls... 1standard and 2 high lifts, and a new Cobra class 4. I have had an adler 105-8 and a 205-370, and a Ferdinand Bull, a Landis 16 and several curved needle machines. These are only the bigger machines, as I have several lighter duty machines. (as I am writing that, I realize that I may have a problem and may need professional help) The hook and awl machines make the best stitches, and Randall/Campbells are very consistent once set up for your work load. They do not adjust easily to different applications. Straight needle machines are easier to adjust and change over for different jobs using different thread and needle sizes. They are also easier to figure out and master, as there are much fewer mechanical adjustments. All of these machines handle hard leather well (skirting, harness and latigo) in weights from 5/6 oz up to 3/4 inch or more, but all need to be adjusted some for the extremes on either end. I am in love with my Randalls, but am developing an infatuation for the new Cobra. I have only hat it for about 6 months, but over that time have done a lot of odd and complex work with it as well as normal flat work and It does a great job. It is becoming my new favorite for shaped and variable thickness work. The Bull was very comparable, and my brother still uses that machine exclusively. You do not have to be as mechanical to adjust the straight needle machines and keep them running as with hook and awl machines, and they are somewhat more versatile. Avoid Union Locks and Landis 16's unless you are ready for a "long term" commitment. They are much more complicated to operate. Now I am going to go a shrink to discuss my obsession! Might have to sell a machine to pay the bill.... NAW!

This is normal discoloration when leather is exposed to elements in the atmosphere. No mater how hard you try to protect it, you will get some variations in color. Shouldn't be a problem; by the time you get the saddle finished the colors should all be about the same. It will level out with washing (oxalic acid) and oiling. When storing, be careful not to store skirting leather in direct contact with an oiled leather like latigo or harness. The oil will leach into the dry skirting. Keith

Your thread just has too much wax on it. Strip off the wax before stitching. It should work out fine. Keith