kseidel

I too would like to see a pic of your adjustment. I am confused as to what you have done based on your description. I have had some success stitching box corners by grinding feet, but also have had to grind a bottom plate to have an equal angle to support the work. The problem is getting the bottom angle to have enough relief for the work to move smoothly and not run into the machine. I have had to use a raised bottom plate in order to get enough relief to clear the outside of the lower housing. The results have been much better with hook and awl machines as they have a narrower arch cover over the shuttle.

Dave, Hook and awl stitchers do make a more attractive bottom stitch than straight needle machines. This is largely because the hook coming up from the bottom pushes the leather back up that is bushed down from the top with the awl. A straight needle machine does not do this. I have several of each style machines and the bottom stitch is always better looking on the hook and awl machines. You can improve the look of the bottom stitch on your straight needle by wetting the bottom side of the leather several minutes prior to stitching. This reduces the tearing of the leather when the needle pushes thru from the top side. When finished stitching, rubbing over the stitch line with a rub stick or using an over stitch wheel will further improve the final look. When you are ready to buy a hook and awl, give me a call. I have a great Randall high lift machine that I am ready to part with. (I think) Keith

I'm not trying to influence anyone and not promoting any method over another. Just want y'all to recognize there are other ways to do things. Just because something is different than the way you think is best, does not mean it is wrong or does not work equally as well. As our world progresses and technology advances, new methods will emerge that are better than the"old"ways. These things should not be feared, but tested and proven before we condemn them, and those who use them.

My biggest reason for trying another way to mount the strings was the frustration of having holes in the tree right where I needed to nail off the conchos. Especially the front seat jockey with the latigo carriers and conchos both and not much tree to nail to. Also the time and expense replacing the strings. That is one part that will most definately need to be replaced before the saddle wears out! I still struggle with the validity of screwing on the strings instead of drilling, but I do believe it can be done well and the benefits are great. Keith

Troy, Saddle strings are great for tying loose stuff onto your saddle, but it is not the tree that is supplying the strength. The saddle string is the same whether it is thru the tree or held with screws. Most good saddlers that install with screws run the strings thru jockeys and rosettes and put a screw on each side of the string. The only holes thru the string are the slits for the blood knots. This method is as strong as running thru the tree... and maybe stronger at the front since drilling the holes in the tree doesn't leave much tree left for nails or screws. None of these are strong enough to trust your rifle! You should attach to rigging or have rings attached at the strings screwed into the tree for heavy and valuable items like rifles, spotting scopes, etc. This is an example of a saddle I made as an experiment attaching strings with screws. I am also a traditionalist, and I wanted to do my own testing to ensure the method would be sound before selling it to clients. I have changes some of these strings several times from being broken or chewed, but never from pulling out of the saddle. The rings attached are for rifle scabbards, etc.

There is a lot of dissention surrounding this subject! To summarize: Tradition says that saddle strings must be drilled thru the tree. Modern methods utilize attaching saddle strings with screws. Both methods have merit and also problems. Your assesment is very correct regarding the comparable strength, and significantly easier to replace broken strings that are screwed onto the saddle. The other major advantage to installing with screws is reduction in trauma to the saddle tree. Drilling holes weakens the tree and leaves it exposed in several places and therefore susceptible to future damage from elements and wear. Both ways can be utilized effectively. If you are building saddles in the strictest sense of tradition, than the saddle strings are an integral part of holding the saddle together, and they need to be drilled thru the tree. Modern methods of saddlemaking utilize other means of keeping the saddle together, and thus do not require strings drilled thru the tree. In the end, It is entirely up to you to decide how you want to make your saddles. And the responsibility falls on you to master whichever method you choose. Keith

Ron's Tools. http://www.ronstools.com/

I use a laser positioned above the tree to mark those lines. I have it mounted on a fixture attached to my saddle stand and runs from front to back. My laser has lines on square so I can mark both lines lengthwise and across the tree. I slide the laser on the fixture to mark the stirrup leathers and the ends of the cantle to ensure perfect square to the position the tree is sitting on the horse.

As far as new saddles in that price range, best ones are McCalls, Reinsman, Billy Cook, Courts. You would be better to look for a used handmade by a reputable maker.

I oil all my parts prior to assembly. Petit planning, you can have all your parts finished together, and can oil everything at once. You can oil, antique and final finish before final assembly. You have to cover your swell before installing skirts. You can't fit inside the hand hole with the skirts in place.

Once you have your seat spiked into position on one side, remove the seat and mark the other side. Do not cut until returning the seat to the saddle and checking the marks against the tree. There may be some discrepancy in the swell that you may need to make allowance for. When making the cut on the other side, stop your cut about 1/4" high. This is necessary to allow for the fold and thickness of leather. You can always cut more... Repeat the process of cutting and spiking the seat on the second side of the swell. Now you can finish the cut around the front of the swell and fit and cut the final shape to the skirts. Good luck! Happy Thanksgiving! Keith

Randy, your saddle is really looking good. Before fitting your seat, your skirts need to be blocked and screwed to the swell above the bar. This will eliminate the "hole" between the seat and skirts above the concho. This also is critical to the strength of an Inskirt rigging, as it prevents the skirts from trying to slide off of the tree. Tips for fitting your seat: if you will be making a padded seat, put a couple of nails in the dish, one on either side of the strainer, for reference. The seat well be removed several times during fitting, and this makes it easier to always return to the same position. Make good firm removable seat plugs to prevent the seat from caving into the depression between the tree and skirts. Fit the cantle and cut the ears first. Making a single cut from the front of your ground seat to the front edge of the seat leaves you the most options for the shape of the seat front. When making your first cut at the swell, cut from the horn down the center of the swell. Use caution not to cut too far! Once cutting past the widest past of the swell, the seat will drop fast. Stop your cut at least 1½"above the intersection of the swell and bar. Cut a circle out at the bottom of this cut. Four your swell, this circle should be about 1"diameter. DO NOT CUT THE CIRCLE BELOW THE END OF THE FIRST CUT! You will end up with a button hole shaped cut from the horn down the center of the swell. You can now begin widening the hole to the back into the seat. Do cut deeper! Enlarge the hole back into the seat and up toward the hand hole until it fits nicely around the bottom rear corner of the swell. Do all this on one side of the swell only. You should be able to press the seat tight around the back and bottom of the swell. The intersection of the swell and bar should be about an inch below the seat edge. Punch a hole for a screw about 3/8"behind the welt line. Place a spike into the hole and putting the tip of the spike in the intersection of the swell, bar, and welt, stretch seat down and forward around swell. You should stretch across the seat diagonally from right rear to left front. not Do stretch straight from rear to front. You want to keep the curve for your rider's leg in the center.

You can make a set that wraps around the swell thru the handhole and fastens to the screw in the front gullet. They can also be made to buckle around the swell without using any screws. They are not as secure, but they do work.

Assuming this is a repair job... wetting the cantle binding is not necessary as it is already formed to fit. finding the holes and lining them up is the hardest part and is quite important if you want it to fit like it was originally. It is easier to fit with the glue a little wet on the top surface, but the under side will be pretty tacky by the time you get to it. But yes, assemble it with the glue wet also. Keith

Nothing wrong with long and skinny. Reference older Visalia saddles, and more currently Chuck Stormes saddles. Many people prefer this look. If you want a deeper rigging, than deeper skirts are needed to achieve a more balanced look.

Glue both sides, and stick it together while wet do you can slide it into place before it sets.

Why? With all due respect, what law says that a rigging has to be a certain distance from the tree? IMHO, your rigging is still too low to balance with your skirt. Agreed, moving your rear dee forward will hide the transition under the seat. As long as we are analyzing your design so carefully, let's take a closer look at the side seat jockey. You have it drawn somewhat egg shaped low in front. Since your skirt has a straight bottom line, the seat jockey would look best if it had the same arc as it joins the jockey, both front and back. And the lowest point should be in the center, not forward or back. Use caution to prevent the seat from dropping too low. It should not drop bellow the skirt. All offered with the utmost respect, Keith

Unless you want to get into saddlemaking, and extensive leather work, you would be ahead financially to pick a saddlemaker and buy a professionally made saddle that will last the rest of your life without problems. If you just want to build your own, maybe check out a school that will help you build your own without the investment in tools and equipment. To answer your question about treemakers, try Bowden or Timberline for better made and more affordable trees. Both are acceptable quality for long term use, and much less expensive than handmade trees.

I use a pedestal saddle stand made of pipe and steel rod, and we cover the base and pedestal pipe with the same paper that we use for the backdrop. I do spend the money to have the saddles professionally photographed. I think it is worth it for promotional use and advertising.

I've made lots of swell forks with wood post horns. They perform the same as a swell fork with a steel horn. With a wood post horn, you do have the ability to adjust the gullet measurements on your tree. The standard gullet height for a tree with a steel horn is 8" in front and 6" in back. This thickness is needed to support the bolted and screwed on horn. With a wood post being made into the swell, you can reduce this thickness to the same as a Wade tree. Front gullet can be 7½" high, back still 6". The horn can be 3" high, thus reducing the overall horn height by 1" total. Yyou are lowering the base of the horn ½" and the horn height ½". That also translates into reducing weight.

Well, I am going to give you some different information... skirt length and depth are cosmetic, more than functional, so you do not need to get hung up on length being too long or short. Better to get the proportions the way you want to achieve the overall look you want. Rigging depth is relative to function as well as cosmetic. If you want a deep rigging and want to keep a balanced proportion to your saddle skirts, then you must plan the rigging depth in advance and then make your skirts and jockeys to compliment. In this case, if you make your rigging as deep as you are now, you will have a very prominant rigging and it will over power the skirts, making them look small and out of balance, or making your rigging look oversized. I would advise making the rigging to fit the skirts that you have. Setting the rigging higher may not be your prefference, but it will be a better looking saddle and will function well within the tolerance range. I dont like to see a flat plate hung much more than about an inch below the skirt. That is the leather, hardware will be lower. The position of your rear dee is also mostly cosmetic. Seldom is the rear cinch tight enough to cause the hardware or the billet fold to press into the horse. The top of the dee should be hidden under the rear jockey. Dropping it down below the skirt is more commonly a function of double dee roping saddles and often have the skirt cut up under the dee to facilitate this. It is not common nor proper for the type of rigging you are making. As far as placing it higher, the rivets can certainly be over the tree. If set properly they will not rup on the tree. However, this type of dee has a very large footprint with the rivet flanges, The higher it is hung, the more it will stick out at the bottom. It cannot bend at the fold like a standard dee would. I would shape a curve into the dee so that it will shape around the horse. Cheyenne rolls are functional, as Oltoot has stated, but can also serve a cosmetic purpose. There is nothing wrong with making a cheyenne roll wider. Make it how you want it to look with the rest of your saddle. Just remember,the wider you make it the harder it is to keep it stiff. You can also adjust the shape and slope to your desired look. Respectfully, Keith Seidel

Better fit on the other side Randy. If you spike that cover down tight to the bar while wet, it will stretch very tight over the top. Question... will you be using an inskirt rigging? Ohterwise, you need the rigging in place before the swell cover.

Randy, Sorry for delaying a reply. I have been out of contact for a week. Your welt is basically correct. The bottom is fine. The top should be tighter. When cutting the swell before installing the welts, cut your top at more of a taper angle into the top of the welt. This will allow a smoother transition from welt to smooth swell. The bottom does not need to be any tighter than you have it. You can easilly press out the space that you have and fit it tight to the tree. Remember, many times we sweat a swell on without any welts, so we have to work all of the slack out the bottom. One more thing, don't fold over the top of the welt inside the swell cover, leave it long and wide. This will hide any tree that might show thru, and help with a smooth transition. Keith

Randy, Here is a picture of my cantle back pattern. It is large enough for the largest cheyenne rolls, and highest and widest cantles that you will ever want to cover. I have used it succesfully for over 30 years. Feel free to copy it for your own use.

Randy, Oltoot is correct that you could easilly salvage this cantle and make it work well. I don't skive my back cantles like he suggested, but at the stage where you are. I use a french edger and skive a groove at the fold about half the thickness of the leather. This allows it to fold tightly and I can push it up tight against the cantle of the tree and against the filler. If you want it to have more downward slope, you can put your filler on and then cut a couple of notches out of the back cantle leather and fit it under the filler. Then add a few stitches to stiffen it and keep it in place. As far as your pattern, yours is cut with a curve that follows the curve where the cantle meets the bar. This will make it loose across the top. Cut it a bit flatter and it will pull tight across the top of the cantle and when you fold it, it will readilly fold down. To adjust your pattern, lay it across the back of your cantle, then mark it up from the bars at the ends of the cantle about ½". Then re-mark the curve from the center to the new marks. When you stretch this in place, it will pull tight across the top. This will add tension to your cheyenne roll and help it to be stiff. Keith