kseidel

Your inquiry is a bit contradictory in terminology. Could you post a picture of your horse to clear up any misunderstanding? Then I will check my stock to see if I have any saddles that will fit. It should be possible to find a saddle that will suit your needs. Keith

Lobo, What are your requirements? How many? Time frame for turn around? How intricate tooling patterns? Coloring? Keith

Hey Brent, I just saw your post. You did an exceptional job on this saddle. A tremendous amount of work is represented there and I commend you for the great work! Keith

I have and use push bevelers, and they work well for borders and such, but they do not work well for tooling the stems as they do not go deep enough ad are difficult to vary the depth of the bevel along a line. Keit

You can also cut them with a round or oval punch. Just try a scrap, you will find it is pretty easy. Keith

I have held the position for years that the rigging position does not determine the tree's position on the horse. In this case this horse has very wide pronounced shoulders, and the rest of the back is more slender, especially in the wither pocket. The muscles may or may not be atrophied. The pictures show very clearly that this tree has too much rocker for this horse. The second pic shows a shadow under the bottom edge of the bar in both the front and the back, and is tight to the horse from the rear stirrup leather cut back about 2-3 inches. This shape would "rock" on the horse and with the front held down by the rigging, the back would move up and down pulling the saddle back. Flattening the bar would eliminate the "teeter-totter" effect and contact more surface area of the horses back. The bar obviously needs more twist to be steeper in the front. The back twist is probably fine once the bar is flattened. This is also an area where the distance from the 14th vert. to the scapula needs to be shorter. This distance seems to be a major factor in saddles sliding forward or backward. If you get the tree to sit properly and block enough relief in the front skirts, it should sit still even though it may be up close to the shoulders. The tree must sit behind the shoulders, and may be quite a bit narrower than one would immagine for this horse. But we are fitting to the ribcage, not the shoulder blades. Respectfully, Keith

How do you arrive at this conclusion? There is no ball joint for the shoulder like there is for the hip. The shoulder blade and corresponding leg is kind of free floating and is attached mostly with muscle tissue. The ligaments that attach the top of the scapula to the spine creates the "pivot point" and not somewhere in the middle. The back corner of the shoulder blade moves back and up slightly when the leg is weighted and moves back. This part of the scapula does not have a lot of movement since it is fairly close to the fixed point of connection. I am no authority on scientific equine anatomy, but I have studied this subject in real world application for many years and have found the movement of the shoulder to be opposite of your description. I mean no disrespect and would welcome more info on this subject. Keith

One of the ways that I like to use to tell if there is enough oil in leather is to fold a piece, and it will lighten in color along the fold. If it returns to the original color fairly quickly when flattened back out, I think there is sufficient oil. If the lightness remains, I add more oil. Keith

Bob, I am not sure what you mean by this post. I believe the idea of oiling is to prevent the absorption of water. Why would you want to get water into it after it is finished? Keith

Casey, Most of the time that white stuff is not mold but the waxes and tallows from the leather leaching to the surface. Some oils have ingredients that come to the surface over time. What finish are you using? Is the white on the outside of the finish or on the leather itself under the finish? Keith

Now you are asking us to share trade secrets! This formula is a match for Hermann Oak chestnut skirting. Mix 10 parts Fiebings Saddle Tan Pro Oil dye, 2 parts Angeles Light Brown Dye, and 1 part Fiebings Cherry Stain. It must be oiled to depth of color desired. A lot of trial and error went into developing this formula. It does tend to rub off, so it must be sealed well. When oiled, it is a good match for H O chestnut skirting also oiled. Keith

Such an interesting topic! Denise, I would like to refute what you have said and have stats to back it up, but the simple fact is that you are correct! There are precious few individuals that really know about saddle fit, and most of us disagree on many points. It has been said that the next world war will be started by saddle and tree makers. The CSMA still exists. I do not think they have any criteria regarding saddle fitting for their master saddlemakers, and I am on their list as one! Many horsemen have more practical experience with how a saddle fits a horse in the real world than many professional saddlemakers. In my experience, most saddlemakers do not ride much if at all! There have been hundreds of saddles made, both by hand made saddlemakers as well as factories, that do not fit any horse on the planet! The consumer is, unfortunately, at the mercy of the industry, and the horses, many times, pay the price. Guess I got on my soap box a bit.... Keith

Ponygirl, You are using degree of bar angles as if they are a constant. They are NOT! As has been stated many time on this forum, there is no industry standard and all tree makers do things different. A 93 deg bar from one tree maker may be very different than a 93 deg from another maker. There is no angle cut involved in the mfg of the poly trees as they are injection molded. There were no specific angles used ( or at least published or discussed publicly) when the old Visallia Co. was in business, and therefore no way to determine an 88 deg angle for that saddle. The Vinton cutter you looked at would have a Bowden tree, and what he calls a 93 deg bar is much different than say one made by Rod Nikkel. There is a great deal of mis-information being spread throughout the horse world regarding this subject. The Dennis Lane profileing system at least gives the tree makers a standard to gauge the horses shape. But then you have the individual interpretation of what bar fits that shape. That individuality sets each tree maker and subsequent saddlemaker apart from others. Many of the extra wide gullets are designed for extra thicknesses of padding and some have wider bar spreads from front to cantle to straddle wider on a horse. They certainly do not work under traditional uses. In order to give you proper advice, we need to know specifics of what your intended uses may be. When you refer to colts, we all have different ideas of what that refers to. Geographic location also plays a major part in the kind of horses you will encounter most. It is difficult to get a saddle that fits mature horses properly to fit young colts in the 2 - 3 year old range properly. Also performance bred horses will have different conformation than say ranch bred horses; especially as colts. It seems discouraging just reading my own post! It is really not that impossible. Most horses can be fit satisfactorily with two different trees and a few different pads. The big wrinkle is the colts. They just don't fit the molds for mature horses. Respectfully, Keith Seidel

Use Fiebings light brown oil dye and then oil to desired shade. Keith

David, Craft paper like they use to make paper grocery bags works well. It is available in various weights. I like to fold it down the center to make a pattern that I only have to draw and stitch half and unfold for the whole seat. I use this paper for making temp patterns and such. I buy it in huge rolls! Keith

My favorite is XL8 contact cement.

Its really not that hard. It usually takes me about 2 hours to do a full padded seat from start to finish. Of course I have the added benefit of having done several hundred of them..... Keith

I use a lot of plastic lids from peanut cans, etc. They seem to wrap around a swell fairly well, without distorting the circle. With the crcles in place, you can orient the flowers fairly well from one side to the other. You can use tracing film and transfer small portions of your pattern from one side to the other. The heavy curves you pretty much have to draw on each side. Keith

Neil, The best way to install an overlaid padded seat, whether new or used, is to fit the new piece in the saddle over the rubber, mark the outline, remove, trim, glue into place and then stitch. Sounds easy huh! It is really not that hard. With the seat in the saddle, (if stitching by hand, the cantle can be glued into the dish of the tree. If machine stitching, the seat must be loose.) lay your new suede leather across the seat. Begin fitting at the narrowest part. Most people tack it into place with blued tacks. I have found a staple gun to be invaluable for this job. Tack (or staple) the narrowest part on one side, snug across to the same narrowest part on the other side and tack. Leave about 3/4" and cut a relief cut straight out each side. Smooth the suede leather forward to the center of the hand hole cut out and tack there. Then go back to the tacks at the narrowest part on each side and work your way forward 3 or 4 tacks at a time on each side. If using a staple gun, the wide frontal surface of the gun helps push the suede leather into place. Put the tacks or staples right into the stitch line. Work your way forward all the way to the front of the seat, a little bit on each side. Then go back to the center and following the same methods, work your way to the back cantle. Then do the front of the seat starting at the point farthest forward. I like to use the staple gun and put the staples in close together. Then, using tailor's chalk, mark a line just below the staples or tacks. Leave the front long if rolling around the end. If cutting flush with the edge, fold the leather over the edge and mark the edge with the chalk. Now mark the edge of the seat ear next to the cantle. We do not want to cut past the edge of the seat! Now you can remove all of the staples or tacks, and lay the suede on your bench. You can see the outline very clearly. I usually scallop or pink this edge about 1/16" outside the line. Do not cut past the cantle ear! You can trim the excess along the sides about an inch forward of the cantle ear. This ensures that you have enough suede leather to lay over the cantle binding and not have a hole at the seat ear. Now it's ready to glue in. Glue fairly heavily and glue the edges first, then a heavy layer of glue throughout the center. Only glue from the dish forward, don't try to glue the whole seat in at once. While the glue in the middle of the seat is still wet, and the edges are tacky, you can put your suede back where you fitted it, starting in the same way at the narrowest points in the center. You don't need tacks at this point, the glue should hold. Once the narrowest part of the seat is fitted, go directly to the front, fit the center of the hand hole then each forward point. Then go back to the middle and work your way forward on each side pulling the leather into place where you want it on the stitch line. Then go back to the middle and work your way back on each side. It works best to go an inch or two at a time on each side, smoothing the suede as you go. Let the glue dry for a half hour or so, then stitch. Once you have the front glued in, if the seat is already glued into the saddle, you can go ahead and glue the back into place. While the glue is still a little bit wet, press down the center and up the back of the cantle, right down the middle. Only stick the front face, don't roll over the back yet. Then pull the slack into the corners first and lay them over the roll. Then go back to the center and splitting the cantle, pull the suede over the roll. Then you can trim and install your cantle binding. See, I told you it wasn't so hard. I hope this isn't too hard to follow. Best of luck! Keith

Tim, Just a little additional note.... olive oil is almost "idiot proof". It is almost impossible to ruin something with olive oil. If you are using any other oil, then you have the skills to use olive oil without fear. You will find it is very user friendly! Keith

Both oils condition leather well. Vegetable oils like canola and corn oils also condition leather well. The real issue is your personal preference regarding the end result. Virtually all olive oil is pure without any additives; virgin being the first pressing of the olives. Neatsfoot oil ingredients vary by manufacturer and different rendering methods. It is difficult to find a pure clear neatsfoot oil. Most have waxes and tallows either added or left over in the refining process. These are evident in the film left on the surface of the leather and must be away. Most vegetable based oils will attract insects and rodents, including neatsfoot oil. Olive oil seems to be undesirable to them. Many neatsfoot oils will turn rancid with age and especially in hot environments. Olive oil does not. Color is different with different oils. As the leather ages, the color differences become more evident. Olive oil has better wicking characteristics than neatsfoot oil. Neatsfoot tends to pool easilly and does not wick thoroughly. Olive oil wicks exceptionally well through all of the leather fibers, without pooling or blotching. This also allows one to apply less oil while getting a thorough conditioning and maintaining a lighter color. Olive oil is much more expensive than neatsfoot oil. It is available at any grocery store and big box stores like Costco. The only neatsfoot oil that I have found that is equal in quality to olive oil is from Texas Refining. With over 30 years of saddlemaking experience, and extensive testing of conditioning products, I use only Olive oil or Texas refinery #1 neatsfoot oil on my saddles. Keith

David, The only Saddle Lac products that I have experience with are only available in spray cans. They don't wipe well and they leave a heavy "painted on" plastic look. Keith

Bearman, Now this post was rather counter productive since you have obviously solved our problem. I certainly preferred the Neat Lac with tolulene to the re-formulated xylene. I know saddlemakers who have used the stuff for decades without harm and I have used it for over 30 years without any ssssside eeeeffectttts! Well maybe a little twitch.... I do like the finish that you have shown. Looks like the old neat lac. I have just begun using the Clear Lac from Panhandle leather. It is not the same as Neat Lac, but does have good lacquering properties. It does handle differently, and is requiring a bit of a learning curve. It has a distinctive odor... and is pretty strong. No worse than the newest neatlac, but still quite strong. It is much thinner than Neat lac, and penetrates deep into the leather. It fully covers into the cuts and background. It dries much slower. It is not as high gloss. It lifts dye more.... especially black. It works well as a resist for antique, but requires more drying time before applying the antique. As a top coat over antique, it seals well and gives a nice satin finish, but care must be taken to avoid removing too much antique. You can't rub it near as much as Neat Lac. Still, overall, it is a viable alternative for Neat Lac. LCI makes several more products that I will try and report more on in the future. Keith P.S. Bearman, If you have a change of heart, I would love to have that recepie to make some bearlac. I assure you there will be no "politically correct" legal liability from me!

Good morning Mark, Almost everyone stamps too wet. It is almost a default suggestion even without seeing the work. You are too wet in the stamped impressions. The beveling sinks too deep and lacks varied dimension when too wet. Same with the shader in the leaf and flower petals. The background is also mushy. Also, the edges of your cut outline are rounded over and not crisp. Let the leather dry out so that the surface is natural color before stamping. You can cut in the pattern fairly wet, then let it dry some more before stamping. When drawing and cutting out the pattern, try to make the wavy outline of the flower petals and the leaf "more" wavy. Make each outside curve that gets shaded the same shape and size as the next. Make the inside curves that get undercut smaller and also more consistent in size and shape. It is a little hard to describe in words. I will be happy to comment on your pattern when you post it. Keith

Mark, You have a nice shaped strap, and the rosette design is great. Stamping smaller does introduce complications. A few tips for you to consider.... try changing the layout of the tooling pattern to have less background. Smaller spaces work better with bar background tools. You could adjust this pattern by turning the bottom flower around clockwise, so the stem comes out the bottom of the flower along the border, and extending the stems around the flower. The top flower could be turned counter clockwise with the stem more toward the button. Then move both flowers closer to the border, so some of the petals extended a bit past the border, reducing background space. Using fewer swirls, and a few more regular stems will make it less busy also. Your shader is a bit too large for the flower and leaf. Use a smaller thumb print and try to carve the outline of the petals and leaf with more consistency and distinction for each curve that will be shaded. When shading, change the angle more gradually from one to the next around the leaf. Make all of the thumbprints on the flower petals point to an imaginary point at the base of the individual petal. As with almost all who are learning to stamp, the leather is a bit too wet. Let it dry out more before stamping. Great attempt. You put a lot of work into those straps. I hope this is helpful. Good luck on the next pair! Keith