kseidel

Shaping a ground seat can be very difficult to learn and you will probably not be satisfied with having an understanding until you have shaped a couple of dozen. For practice, you can replace ground seats in older saddles that are uncomfortable and then ride them to asses your shape. One of the most common problems is the size of the pocket in the lowest point in the seat front to back. Whether it is close to the cantle or more forward toward the swell is personal preference. However, it must be large enough for the riders seat to fit into without sitting on a slope either in front or behind him. This will affect the overall balance of the rider in the saddle more than any other factor. The length of the stirrup dictates the shape side to side. If one rides a shorter stirrup, his seat is flatter and can have a "sharper" corner, more like sitting in a chair. Someone who rides with a longer stirrup with his legs straighter down requires a more rounded transition. You find these differences dictated by discipline as well as geographic location. Best of luck, Keith

Highdesert, Assuming that you start by fitting around your cantle, and you cut your cantle corner approx 3/4 " up the cantle edge, and that you have cut the front of the seat into the handhole in front of the ground seat, (this is a lot of assumptions,) stretch your seat into the saddle. Then release the tension on your draw down strap a bit, and spike the ears of the seat back up toward the cantle. They need to go up about 3/4" and back about 1/4". Then draw the seat back into place and smooth out any bumps. Then finish cutting around the front. The ear cut should be about 1/2" from the edge of the cantle. Hope this is helpful. If you need more help, just ask. Your problem could be more involved than a short and simple answer. Keith

I have two electric clippers. My favorite is an Oster Power Pro cordless clipper with dual batteries in a dual recharging station. The blade is a # 78916-536 Blocking blade. It does a great job on woolskin and is easy to handle. I also have a set of Stewart Showmaster sheep shear clippers with P7112 blades. These are made for closer shearing of sheep, and work well for skirts. They are large and more awkward to handle and are fairly heavy. They also do not cut as close as the others. Please do not take offense, but anyone who is a professional saddlemaker should have a set of electric clippers for trimming skirts. We spend thousands on stitchers and many hundreds for hand tools and stamping tools. A good set of clippers cost around $200. This is a small price to pay for the superior results. It is just part of the cost of being in business. It may not be necessary for a hobbyist, but no professional should be without a good set of clippers. Respectfully, Keith Seidel

This is one area where real skill shows and yields consistent results. If you want consistently accurate borders, you must first fit all of the parts as they will be when finished. I like to fit up an entire saddle before tooling. This allows me to inspect the overall picture, and to draw in the border lines where I want them without any guesswork. Sometimes tools can make the difference. I use a pair of outside dividers to mark the top of the cantle on the cantle back. It is easy to keep the inside leg on the top of the cantle and still get an accurate line on the cantle back. It is important to keep the correct angle around the cantle from top to the corners. There will be a bit of trial and experimenting to hone this skill. I is the easiest that I have found, and is less subject to a varying thickness of leather. I add about 1/4" to the width of the border on the rest of the saddle for the border on the cantle back. If you are putting a filler between the cantle back and the tree, you need to allow for the extra thickness, especially for cheyenne rolls. Example: for a 3/8" border, I allow 5/8" from the top of the cantle line. Keith

In many ways it was easier when we used gullet measurements of front, rear, and height, and a bottom bar spread measurement. It was the only way to measure a production tree after construction.... and still is the only way to measure a finished tree with any degree of accuracy. I think the degree of angle measurements came about with the popularity of handmade trees, as it is an angle marked on the block of wood prior to shaping the swell. Some treemaker made a tree that fit well for someone and he happened to be using a 93 degree angle. Pretty soon it caught on, and others wanted the 93 degree tree. This angle rarely transfers to the actual angle of the bars on the underside, and has no bearing on the shape of the bar, (or twist or rocker) and, as stated repeatedly, every treemaker does things differently.It would be easier for the treemaker to use an even number like 94 as the angle is split off of a centerline. There is a significant difference in the fit of a tree from 90 degrees to 100 degrees, even among a variety of treemakers. Keith

It has been said that scars are tatoos with better stories!

WHoa, Whoa, Whoa..... I mean no disrespect to Mr Harwood!!! I was surprised at your response and upon re-reading my post can understand how you may mis-interpret my comments. Dale is indeed an accomplished saddlemaker. Anyone with the advanced experience as he would be able to calculate the durability of each piece of leather chosen for his riggings and have the experience of both years and sheer numbers to know how much stretch to expect within the tollerance allowed. A novice would not have this experience nor ability. I humbly apologize for offending you. Dale and I have been aquainted for over 25 years and he was very influentual to me in my early years as a saddlemaker. I have much respect for him and value our friendship. Keith

Justin, Your riggings should not be angled forward. They should be installed so that the downward pull holds the entire tree in place on the horse. Setting the riggings angled forward will but excessive presure on the front of the bars and increase the possibility of horse soreness. It also allows the saddle to tip forward creating further imbalance for the rider. An all leather rigging will re-shape and conform over years of use. The saddlemaker should take steps to construct the riggings with materials that have limited stretch and remove as much stretch from the riggings as possible when assembling, then install them so that there is uniform presure on the tree both front and rear. This can be accomplished regardless of rigging position. Great care should be taken when creating and installing riggings. If a rigging stretches, it will change position front to back. There is only about 1/4" tolerance in position from one side to the other. Any more deviation will cause the tree to move on the horses' back. It is impossible to "guess" how a piece of leather will stretch, so installing an unstretched rigging at an angle to allow for however much you think it may stretch is a recepie for failure.

They go on okay fully stitched together. I use a long screwdriver with a round shaft (about 16" long) as a bar between the tree and front rigging and slide the rigging up around the front bar. It usually goes on good... but is hard to get off. Put a screw into the swell through the skirt just above the bar to hold the skirt and rigging from slipping off of the tree. Keith

Jake, You are asking a question that has several possible variables. There are several threads discussing the attributes of in-skirt riggings. They are certainly strong enough to rope with if produced correctly. They are strongest if hooked over the tree bars both in front of the swells, and in back of the cantle. The saddle you want to build would be best if the rigging plate that is on the outside is all one piece of leather and covers the entire back of the skirt. It is harder to fasten to the tree as you can't put screws in the bar behind the cantle concho. Attached is a drawing of an in-skirt rigging that I use. You would simply cut the rigging larger to extend to the back of the skirt. It can be any shape of skirt that you wish. Hope that helps, Keith

Bondo Bob, Keith Gertsch of Midway Sadddle Tree Co. has been making most of my trees for over 20 years. He has a full customer base, and isn't accepting new clients at this time. Several treemakers have studied with him and others are trying to mimic his bar designs as best as possible. I will build on trees by others like Ben Swanke, Bill Bean, Rick Reed, Dennis Lane, etc. There are a few others that make good trees, and I simply haven't tried yet. Keith

It is pretty amazing how well they hold up considering how poorly most are built! Tells you how critical the rawhide is, and how strong it really is. Keith

I will interject a little more input on the subject... Many trees are straight and square in the wood before covering, and then have some rock when rawhided. This does not necessarily mean that the tree is crooked. The varying thickness of rawhide can cause one corner to be thicker and another to be thinner resulting in some rocking. Also, the rawhide will shrink more in places than others, just like a hide of leather, pulling the tree into a warped shape. The climate where I live is very dry and trees have a tendancy to change quite a bit over a few months. I have had no trouble with trees that rock as much as 1/4", if they will touch all corners with my weight pushing down on them. It is very easy to cause a tree to change shape. setting on the floor with a shim under one corner and a cement block on top will change the tree in just s few days without any moisture. Some trees have more flex than others, and may warp 1/4 to 3/8" and still be flexible enough to push flat with your arm strength on a bench top. This subject gets overworked a lot among alarmist horsemen and saddlemakers alike. My experience has taught me that there is a lot more room for error here than most are willing to accept. Remember, the "corners" of the tree never touch the horse, and there is anywhere from an inch to over two inches of leather, sheepskin and padding under the tree and it will be used on a horse in fluid motion. In addition, most of us don't use leveled skirting for our skirts and may be causing some unevenness by the different thicknesses of leather under the bars. Oldtimer, As for your tree, if it was mine, I would simply put it on a flat surface and weight it with a couple of cement blocks with about 1/4" of shim under each tight corner. It should straighten out in a few days. Respectfully, Keith

Great new shop Bruce! As I was looking at your pics, I was thinking how nice to get to see your shop! Well thought out and efficient. After having a big shop, it would be difficult to shrink into a smaller space. I see you are a splitter junkie too.... Keith

Veg tanned leathers are not all dry. Latigo and Harness leather that is veg tanned is also finished in the tannery with oils, waxes, tallows, dyes, etc. Leather intended for tooling and molding, such as saddle skirting and strap and tooling leather is basically dry from the tannery. There is usually a bit of cod oil in the leather when finished, but not enough to inhibit wetting for shaping and tooling. When you ane finished with construction, and before any topcoat or sealer is applied, a conditioning agent should be applied. Oil, like neatsfoot oil, is traditionally preferred. It will wick through the fibers lubricating the leather and restoring life into the skin. Cream or paste conditioners will also work, but have slower wicking properties and may not penetrate very far. They also usually have some sort of wax that will protect the surface and make additional finishes difficult. You do not need to apply a lot of oil to restore life to the leather. A thin light coat will usually be adequate. The harder a product is to be used, the more oil needs to be applied. Do not over-oil! Saturating the leather is as bad or worse than no oil at all. After oil has had time to penetrate (several hours), then you can finish with whatever you like for a topcoat. No mater how well you condition the leather, a thick plastic surface finish will crack over time. Using Neat lac or Tan kote and rubbing into the surface will give a more natural finish. I hope this answers your question. Keith

The antique paste, if Fiebiengs, is not water based. It has a mineral spirits base. This will cut thru the tan kote some. You should always dye any colors before any topcoat. You can salvage it. Use acetone to strip off the finish over the letters. Dye the letters and then re-finish. use another coat of tan kote for your final finish and work into the leather. It will remove any loose antique and leave a deeper topcoat finish. Be sure to let the tan kote dry an hour or two before applying another finish or using. Keith

Julia, I think Hennessy was suggesting that you use nylon webbing latigos instead of leather. They can be much thinner and eliminate much of the bulk over the rigging ring. Another suggestion: The rigging hardware you used is a very heavy and deep "flat spot" in your skirt. Bending an arc in that rigging ring from top to bottom will help it to follow the natural curve of the side of the horse. It will help the bottom to not protrude so far out at the tip pushing the latigos out into the path of your stirrup leathers. It will be hard to bend attached to the saddle and may need to be removed for shaping, but much easier and less costly than a total skirt replacement. I use 550 rigging rings which in principle are similar to the hardware you used. I shape an arc in all of them prior to assembly. Keith

Gail Hought's basic and advanced books are great. Straight forward and to the point withought all of the fluff. Color coded and easy to follow even for more advanced knots. http://www.hought.com/brbooks.html Keith

What is the source of your information? A couple of years ago they said they were discontinuing Neat Lac, but they just changed the formula. It is different, but was still available. What is the current status? Keith

I prefer the paste antique. Partly because I have more experience with the paste. I don't like highlighters. Just can't get the same effect. Some of the paste antique is pretty thin and has a lot of liquid floating on the surface. This is harder to use and has a tendancy to penetrate the base coat of neat lac, making the leather quite a bit darker. Do you use liquid antiques? If so, what kinds and what are the properties and effects? Maybe There is something new that will work better..... Keith

Hi Bob, My reason for tooling the strap would be that there are no other parts that are completely plain.... all other parts have some decoration on them somewhere, even the binding. That is my method of reasoning (or madness.) As for the machine tracks, both of those machines have an adjustment for the pressure on the feet. Lighten up the pressure to just enough to hold the work. In addition, most feet from the factory are pretty squared and sharp. I bevel and polish off the squared edges of both the presser foot and the walking foot so that they do not leave a distinct edge line. As long as the material is dry when you stitch, this should prevent leaving a foot line. Keith

G'day David' Many years go (seems like another life) I made mostly show saddles and the natural unoiled look was the most popular; and still enjoys that honor. I found that the saddles without any oil discolored quickly due to UV rays and staining, no mater how bulletproof the finish. I began experimenting with different oils that would not darken significantly and would help to give life back into the leather aiding in the resistance to discoloration. This is when I discovered that it is not so much the type of oil, but the application that affects the color most. Oils with the lightest viscocity will yeild the lightest color. But even they will be dark if applied too heavily. I Use Olive oil on most of my new saddles now. The depth of color is determined by how much oil is applied, and how quickly. A light coat of oil followed immediatly by another light coat will be much darker than the same two light coats with 8 - 12 hours between. The real "art" in a light color is how the oil is applied. Hand applying with a sheepskin allows the most control. The amount of oil on, or "in" the sheepskin pad is the key. If you will wipe most of the oil out of the sheepskin and begin with ultra light pressure, you can achieve a very minimal coverage. Increase pressure as the oil dispenses from the pad maintaining the same amount of oil being applied to the surface. The pad will quickly become "empty" and you can rub over the surface again lightly to smooth out any streaks, befor getting more oil. An oil's wicking property is also important. Many oils are blended or sulfinated using water or other substances as a carrier. The better the oil wicks, the deeper it will penetrate and not pool on the surface. There is no substitute for time to allow oil to penetrate. A good rule of thumb is to wait 8-12 hours before applying another coat. With olive oil, the final color is not evident for 3-4 days. Different oils impart different colors. Even sulfinated oils or oils with great wicking properties will give a different color. How the oil reacts with the tannins in the leather will deternine the final result. Sunshine will also affect the color; either before or after oiling will have different affects. I use an oil here called TeeSee that is the most natural color that I have found other than leaving natural. Olive oil darkens as much as neatsfoot oil, but has generally better wicking properties and less oil will thoroughly condition, leaving less close to the surface. One coat will penetrate completely, where most neatsfoot oils never panetrate completely. The only neatsfoot oil that I have found that penetrates as well as olive oil is from Texas Refinery. I do not know of a finish that is perfect for all natural saddles. None that I know of will stop the discoloration of UV rays from the sun. Unless you ride the saddle only inside, It will change color. When finally oiled, the saddle will then darken significantly. Most finishes will have to be stripped before oiling will be affective and even then will usually be blotchy. Acetone strips most lacquer finishes well, but not some like tan kote or bag kote. These are water based finishes that, once set, are very difficult to remove. They also do not protect well against staining and discoloration. They are a good topcoat for sealing. I prefer fiebings Colorless Harness Dressing for a topcoat on saddles that are going to be re-oiled frequently. It is NOT completely colorless and is not a suitable finish for natural saddles. However, it can be re-applied many times without build up, and readilly accepts oil without any stripping. It is more difficult to apply without streaking. Neat lac is still my favorite for most durable finishes. I like to work it into the leather like oil, and apply at least two light coats. The lighter colored saddles that you have seen that I have made are antiqued. My process for this finish is as follows: after all tooling and shaping is complete, wash the leather with oxalic acid solution to remove any surface stains from handling and to prep the leather. Oxalic acid opens the pores and makes the leather very receptive. Then oil to the depth of color that I want... maybe one coat, maybe several. Wait at least 6 hours after last coat of oil before applying any tip coat. There must not be any oil left on the surface or the lacquer will not stick. Then apply a thorough coat of Neat Lac, rubbing it well into the surface. When dry, apply a coat of antique, working it into the tooling, and then buff off any excess. Follow with another coat of Neat Lac, controling the final drying for finish. If you want a high gloss finish, simply apply and leave alone to dry. If you continue to wipe your pad over the surface lightly as the lacquer dries, it will finish satin or even flat. It takes a little practice, but you can get a very natural finish. The antique process certainly does darken, dependign somewhat on the color of the antique. I use mostly mahogany, but on the show saddles, I used light mahogany for a lighter color. You can also remove a lot of the antique with the final lacquer coat. Most of these saddles need to be re-finished after about a year and and a half to two years. They will darken quite a bit when first re-finished. With this much Neat Lac and antique, it takes a long time for the oil to penetrate. Once it does, another coat will penetrate fairly quickly. I usually give them a really good cleaning which helps to remove some of the old finish. Completely re-finishing as original will make the saddle look close to new only a bit darker shade. Sorry for the length of this post. Your question required a long answer. I hope this is the information that you wanted. Keith

XL-8 is sold through shoe repair findings companies. I use enough to buy direct. It does not fairly compare to other contact cements. It does take some getting used to, and you need to make a consious effort to learn how to use it effectively. For me, it is far superior to other cements. Its working time is different and a bit variable depending on leathers. After a gallon or two then make a qualified judgment. Keith

You can purchase Neatsfoot oil direct at: Texas Refinery Corp. 840 N. Main St. Fort Worth, TX 76106 Phone: 817-332-1161 Fax: 817-332-2340 As far as Neat Lac is concerned, I sure liked the original formula better! They stopped usine tolulene and switched to xylene. I am not a chemist and do not know what the difference is, just that they work differently. Keith

JW, Try the XL-8. It is made by the same mfgr, and has better holding properties. It has been my favorite for over 20 years. Keith