kseidel

Rigging placement is sooo subjective! And How to place them consistently is difficult without good reference points that are consistent. A jig helps. Jon's fixed point being the front of his bar works fine if you only use one treemaker. Also, how a tree sits on a horse affects rigging position from one treemaker to another. I like to have my skirts in place on the tree when I fit my riggings, and that makes using a jig somewhat harder. I have a jig set up on a saddle stand that is fitted to tree shape to hold the tree square, and have attached a board across the front to measure back from for a consistent reference point. I determine the depth of the rigging from the bottom of the bar and measure back from the board across the front. I don't like to use the horn or cantle as reference points since they are not consistent from tree to tree. The horn can be out of center, leaning a bit to one side, etc. The same with the cantle; off center or one side farther forward than the other. I know we all want to have perfect trees, but that is not always the case. The horn and cantle are not always centered and square over the bars, and the bars are what fits the horses back. So I always reference off of the bars as they sit in the horses back.

JW, A pencil roll on a taco brim.... Hmm. That would be a way to make it even more "unique." Ha Ha. You must be from around West Texas.? Keith

Barry King makes his blades to fit both inside barrel sizes now. Keith

Around here, pencil rolls and finger rolls refer to the shape on the edge of your hat brim! Straight up cantle bindings have a tendency to "curl" forward into the riders seat. It is important to keep the bound edge straight up all around the edge of the cantle. If you do not use a plug and secure it to the cantle, the thicker and firmer leather of the seat will pull the binding forward over time. I use a firm strip of about 8 oz. leather glued and nailed to the back of the cantle. I leave about 3/4 to 1 inch below the edge of the cantle and skive to a smooth transition an the cantle back. Then shape it tight to the top edge keeping the front edge in the center of the cantle edge. (lots of edges in that sentence) Then put the cantle back on. I find it easier to trim to desired width after the cantle back is in place. When the seat is glued into place, break the seat over the top of the cantle and crimp it tightly to the back and filler this should leave a depression where your seat folds back over the tree before extending straight up around the shape of the cantle. This depression will allow your binding thickness to fit without protruding into the plane of the seat. The plane of the seat should then follow out to the edge of the cantle binding. I like to use about 10 oz leather for my cantle bindings. I do not care for rawhide on straight bindings because the rawhide continues to shrink and over time will pull the edge into the seat. I have also found that rawhide wears out faster than leather. Keith

I prefer edgers made by Barry King or Bob Douglas. Keith

Steve, I cut the rawhide dry and nail it onto the tree dry and stitch the binding with the rawhide dry. Have tried working it moist, but it always dried mis-shapen. I just cut it with a sharp pair of tin snips. I haven't had any problem with splitting the wood as it is sandwiched between the rawhide covering. Sometimes I miss the center and the nail makes a bulge between the wood and rawhide. I use a fairly slender hardened ring shank nail. Keith

I have some scrap stingray. No blue and the green is a pale lime green. This stingray is garment tanned an the surface is sanded so that the "pebbles" are flat. Let me know if this may work for you. Other colors are black, dark brown, red, and orange. Keith

Mark Allan productions sells prop guns that are identical in size and weight to working guns. Good suplier for cowboy guns. I don't know if they have others. Keith

Ashley, On a folded welt the leather at the top is run under the swell cover and flared out. The top of the rolled welt is well supported from underneath. On a single ply welt, the top edge is butted into the cut in the swell cover, but doesn't extend very far underneath. The piece of leather protruding to the outside can tear away fairly easily and leave the stitching exposed. If you do a single ply welt, use a softer more flexible piece of leather for your welt, and don't stitch your stitches too close together. 5 or 6 to the inch is tight enough. Hope this helps, Keith

Hollywood style gunrigs usually have cartridge loops from billet to billet. On a 36-38 it amounts to about 30 .45's. A good source for dummy cartridges is Mark Allen Productions. Keith

Getting the seat to break sharper at the top of the cantle is mostly dependant on what you do on the edge of the cantle underneath the seat. Like most things on a saddle, what you do first will affect what you do later. Making the top edge of the cantle squared off and sharp , and as hard as possible will greatly help to make the seat break over sharply. I do not skive the break thinner, only to make it the same thickness all around the cantle. Thinner leather is harder to mold and sharpen. As the seat dries, you can sharper the edge further. Over the years my cheyenne rolls have evolved from thick and rounded to thinner and sharper. Mostly cosmetic When trying to make them thinner and more refined, I needed to find better ways to keep the roll stiff. I now use a rawhide filler, cut to shape and nailed to the top of the cantle.The front edge of this filler makes a very sharp and hard edge to break the seat over. And a very rigid cheyenne roll that will never soften; without the extra thickness of leather fillers. Keith

Sorry Barra, We saddlemakers take it for granted that everyone knows the nomenclature assocated with our topics. Standard hardware styles are pictured in most specialty hardware catalogs. Bork hardware in Pendelton, OR has a pretty detailed catalog. The phone # is 541-276-5207. There are enough styles of rigging hardware to blow your mind! By "cut-out" in the rigging, I am refering to the arc cut above the hardware to allow more room for the latigos. As far as "doming" rivets, that is harder to explain. I tried to find a picture to post but none can be found. Copper rivets have a flat head and there is a pattern in the finish on the top of the cap. Most of us have rivet setters that have a tool in the set with a concave end used to round over or dome the rivet cap after the rivet is set in the leather. This makes the cap rounded nicely, but the printed pattern still exists. It is nearly impossible to polish this pattern off while set into the leather, so I dome the cap first and use a buffer to pollish the cap smooth. Then the rivet is ready to set. The difficult part is how to pound the dome into the cap without damaging the shank. I use an old drive hole punch large enough to fit over the rivet shank. I grind the sharp edge off to be blunt under the rivet cap. Then slide the punch over a rivet and pound it into something cupped. The cupped surface will determine the shape of the dome on the rivet cap. You can simply pound into saddle skirting and get some dome. Once your rivets are domed, use the same drive punch as a handle to hold the rivets while you polish them smooth with a buffing wheel. It is not as hard as it is to explain in words. Try it and I think you will be surprised with the results. Happy Riveting! Keith

Steve, How was that saddle to ride this weekend? My experience is a bit limited regarding Warren's trees, and I wonder what you think of their performance in use. I have built on a few, and find the quality of construction very good; however, warren and I disagree on a few fundamentals of horse fit. Doming and polishing rivets: use an old dull drive punch or a small piece of rigid tubing to fit over the shank of the rivet. drive the head of the rivet into your doming tool or a dapping block or whatever else you like the shape of. ( I use a spot setter) Then polish the rounded head on a buffer. Then set as usual, skipping the doming process at the last. Use a piece of skirting leather between the polished rivet and the anvil to avoid scratching. I can send pics if you want, but will need to send from the shop where there are more pics. As for the leather keeper, Stitch the one side the same as you are doing. Then fit the loop to the strap it will hold and hand stitch the other side to match the first. Then you can block the loop tighter and it will hold its shape better and keep your buckle tighter. It doesn't take much longer, and the result is much more professional. It is easiest to hand stitch the closed loop with a hook or "jerk" awl. Using the two spike trick to stretch rear jockeys on really helps get out that last little extra space. Try it, I think you will like the result for such a small effort. Alan Dewey worked for me a few years ago, good saddler. He's working for Hamleys now I believe. Since you mention it, I remember him showing me that rear cinch pattern, but I had forgotten it and never tried it. Plesae come by the shop in May, I would love to see you. All are welcome. It is always hectic that time of year, but I will make time for you. I will be going over to Sheridan Thursday morning, so come by Wednesday if you can. Greet Ross for me. I haven't seen him in a couple of years. Your saddle work is very nice and I would be proud to employ you in my shop..... should you ever have the notion. Best regards, Keith

I have my work stations set up in a U shape with work benches on each side out from the wall and a tool cabinet on the wall between the benches. My saddle stand is in the middle. Tools are easily accessible from either workbench as well as the saddle on the stand. One bench is 30" wide, the other is 4' x 8'. Both have a center shelf and a shelf at the floor. They are made of 3/4" particle board shelving and 4 x 4 legs, with 2 x 4's on edge around edges and two in the center under each shelf for support. Bench tops are tempered masonite, or butcher plastic, or white melamine coated particle board. I use other cutting surfaces on the board tops. My stamping bench is a separate bench made taller to allow tooling either seated or standing. Attached are some pics. Keith

Very Hard to criticize a saddle this well made! My compliments on a very nice saddle. Have you made many saddles? How many years? Very nice slicked edges. Nice job on the horn cap keeping the dome to the cap and centering the edge. Inlaid seat has great fit and nice shape. Great stitching. Hand stitching matches machine stitching. You did a great job at the stitch joints on the rear cinch. Rigging position is good. I like to keep them a little higher; especially using the 550 ring. I have found it easier to get the rigging too low using this hardware, but I like it best. Too low puts your latigos wrapped tightly to the ring and requires using a shorter cinch which doesn't allow enough space for the horses shoulder to move freely under the cinch ring. I usually have the top of my cut-out inside the ring to be about the bottom of my skirt, and rivet the ring a little higher in the flat plate. I also like to hide the top of my rear rigging dee inder the back jockey.... just makes a cleaner look. Saddle proportions are great! Great balance with skirt size (length and depth) to the saddle size. Seat shape looks comfortable and balanced. You should enjoy riding it. I like to crease all of my edges that are not stitched. It balances the "bordered" look of the stitching as well as packing the edges harder. Interesting rear cinch design. I've never seen that done before..... Lots of leather, but very well executed. Your tooling is impeccable! Correct moisture content and perfectly stamped. Nice knife work. You should stitch your leather keeper behind the buckle on your rope strap. You are too good a craftsman to use a loose keeper. Two things to try: 1: try doming and polishing your rivets before you set them. 2: I think you can get your rear jockeys tighter. Try using two spikes on each side. One to fit them like you do now about the concho position, and another forward and lower to pull the corner around tighter. Overall exceptional saddle!!!! Have a great weekend of roping in it! Keith Seidel

R H products that makes Duall 88 makes a cement called XL8. It is not quite as fast, but the bond is much stronger, and it will stick to oily surfaces. Is thin and penetrates well for a pre-wetting coat. Takes a bit to get used to as it works different than barge or masters, but I like it the best of all cements on the market. Keith

Osborne has a catalog that has a pretty good comparison and pics. Any osborne dealer can send you one or go to them direct. Keith

Tina, 3/8 inch is the most common size for the bit end on standard thickness headstalls. Keith

I once followed a truck hauling caskets. As I began to pass, I noticed a small sign on the truck that read "Drive Safely...Yours might be on this load." I quickly pulled off for fuel and a rest. Keith

Lee, I do not stamp my cheyenne rolls on the saddle but rather flat on the granite. Fit the cantle binding and mark all of your border lines. Make a few reference marks to replace in the exact location. Remove, flatten carefully, and allow to dry thoroughly. Tape the back where you will stamp with a heavy mil packing tape or duct tape (something that will not stretch and will stick well.) Wet and case, be careful not to stamp too wet! Stamp as you wish. Allow to dry thoroughly again before removing tape. Put a layer of cement on the back of the leather and let dry. Now apply a very light coat of oil to the surface. This will protect the tooling from distortion when you glue the binding onto the saddle. Wet well and glue onto the saddle, aligning with each reference mark. When wetting, most of the oil is displaced leaving the leather an original natural color. This method was taught me by Tad Mizwah. It takes a bit of practice to master, but works well. Keith

Slick forks are great until you want to cover the swell and gullet all with one piece. Then there is too much material to stuff into the gullet. Keith

Timjtodd, The skirt only needs to be two thicknesses. The layer of the skirt on the bottom plus the layer of the rigging on the top gives you the two thicknesses that the skirt needs to be finished. There is no need for a skirt plug. You do need to plug the back corner of the skirt behind the rigging. It is best to drop the rigging below the depth of a normal skirt. About 6 inches below the bar of the tree to the bottom of the rigging ring minimum, to a maximum of 8.5 inches. Dropping the rigging too low can interfere with the horses performance. Not low enough and the rigging does not wrap around the barrel of the horse far enough to avoid contact with the riders leg. (stirrup leathers rub on latigo wraps) On a shallow skirt you may need to cut the skirt shape to be dropped in front similar to a flat plate. There is quite a bit of leeway here, but these are my findings from hundreds of various in-skirt and flat plate riggings. Attached are a couple of pictures of in-skirt riggings. Hard to see with stirrup fenders in the way. All the saddles pictured are drop front in-skirt rigged.

I agree with Andy, roper and wade swells are easy without welts. Higher shoulders and more undercut or leg cut increases the degree of dificulty exponentially! I once covered a 15 inch low moose without welts..... It can be done, but I won't do it again. Modified Assocations up to 13 inches wide, Roper or rounded swells also to 13 inches. Will James and Liewellan fronts up to 12 inches are possible, but much more difficult. The undercut presents the biggest problem, and rigging filling the space will change the dynamics a bit. I find that thicker leather is easier than thin. It absorbs the wrinkles better. I prefer the shoulder or central belly area for swell covers. I want the more open fibers for flexibility, but many times the shoulder area will be thick on one side and too thin on the other. Thinner, softer leather would seem to be easier to mold, but I find the opposite to be true. Folded welts are much stronger than single ply, and wear much better. Where you place the welt not only affects wear, but affects cosmetics. You can drastically change the look of your saddle by where you place the welt. If placed contrary to the natural curves of the swell, it can look out of place. ie: butting a straught vertical side welt on a bull moose with well defined leg cut. Following the curve along or parallel to the leg cut would look much better. Putting the welt in the front in, in this case would also be good. A blind stitch welt tends to shrink and develop a gap showing the stitching over time. Placement of a blind stitch is critical... you would not want to put the welt over a sharp edge of the swell. Most beginners welt their swells too tight. This creates problems getting over the shoulders, as well as forming gaps in the welt when dry. Remember, even on a welted swell, you can shrink and mold a great deal of leather around the bottom of the swell and into the hand hole. You ask a lot of questions in your post Bruce. Hard to give a short simple reply! HaHa Keith

I have a frazier catalog from 1915. In it they state that in 1913 they produced 5000 saddles and 2000 pairs of chaps employing 100 mechanics. Amazing production capabilities! They did produce saddles with a wool felt for skirt lining; mostly for the dude ranch trade. These were primarily lesser priced saddles. Keith

Oldtimer, I don't expect you to believe me by faith, this is not the gospel and I am not Jesus Christ. Conduct your own experiments. I have conducted my own and found that oil does freeze, and dois indeed expand when frozen. I froze many different kinds of oils we use on leather and found some to expand much more than others, and at different temperatures. I did not freeze any motor oil. Keith