8thsinner

Thanks for that bevan. Awesome for you that Simon wants one of your whips, and when someone like that tells you to change something you listen or you lose. What do you mean undo the first six inches, Like make it shorter by six inches? or was there a mistake in the underlying layers or something? And everything I said above, it's all theory, Trying to get a balance in the practical is an entirely different matter as I am sure you know. But the article is still a long way off, and I think some comparative tests will need to be made before it will be finished which is gonna be months if not years down the line. What sort of Roo are you talking about as a fall, just a straight cut down the back of one? Thats still pretty thin. But great to know it. Thanks for sharing.

I have never been in the military but did like using military boots, cheap, strong and lasting. So I did take to polishing my boots to mirrors. I found a good process for myself which went something like this. Kiwi (regular) would be brushed on as quickly as possible to provide heat with a heavy brush and left for an hour. I would buff this off as quick as possible to get my base coat. Then with a finger and a regular polishing cloth I would take to the polish with a wrapped finger, starting by using small circles in the polish until you can see it melting then scoop of the shiny polish and start to rub this in. When it got kinda sticky you went to a different spot. After it was all at that sticky point I would go at it again with the up turned tin of polish holding ice cold water to harden the polish at that level. It got pretty good results. I tried spitting, I tried breathing on em, but nothing got as good a finish as using cold water. I probably put 3-4 coats on like this over a few hours. After this I would finish with two layers of parade gloss maybe even three. I used the same process but buffed the last layer with speed and stocking or just a T shirt. I used to do this every saturday without fail before I even had breakfast and get into town about 3... After a while I stopped doing it, probably because the scuffing just got too annoying. But I still use the same process every couple of years especially when new boots are being used.

Glad you enjoyed it. Just went to edit and add more though and realised I couldn't, since when did threads have a time frame for allowing edits? I'll just repost when I get a little more done. Have to start thinking about newtons law and how to go about employing these elements into physical work.

I'd say its a topic which could get heated is all. I have seen no argumentative behavior, just strong opinions. The whole "organic" thing with the breeding of cows is say is probably 75% BS however, cows that are simply well treated, feed with natural products etc will have better quality hides how could they not. The "organic" hype over the last few years is all about money these days and restrictions have been put on the growth to ensure you stick to certain rules to be able to advertise as organic. I think those people matter less than the people who care about their cows and do look after them properly. Most likely no one even knows the difference cause it's all sold through the same people or ends up in the same tannery. My partners, sisters ex-husband for example is a dairy farmer, he has independently been judged to have the best milk in the country. He does love his cows, to the point where he goes through a very disciplined routine, feeds them well etc. However he sells to a company like many others who just take the milk and sell it through a company name, I don't know the company name but they buy from hundreds of farmers around the country so how would the customer know the difference between any of them? I am glad to know that veg tanning is done through recycling. It matters to me that my products damage the environment as little as possible, but like someone else said, I will use the best I can find to give my customer the best he can get. It just so happens that veg tanning makes better leather, it's an easy choice.

For me, the most profitable item thus far is braided rings in plain leathers. Much like the slide I suspect they look hard but only take ten to fifteen minutes a piece. Use less than a metre of thong usually. I think these sell quickly because they are made for the customer there and then, in the colour they want. I have even taken to adding a sign that states, I will teach you how to make your own ring for the price of another ring. It's great for kids at the right age learning to do craft work. I would like to think doing bracelets is the next best for the little material it takes but I cannot afford to buy a few skins just to start a hundred bracelets. Leashes are easier to braid because of the size but can be sold for more and they probably take nearly the same time to make.

I am working on the above article for my web site for when it's ready again. If you spot any mistakes or disagree on something point it out and we can work through it, I may be adding and updating myself to develop into a more structured piece. Otherwise let me know what you think, and whether or not it helps you understand whip making.

What goes into designing a whip How a whip will act is based on how it is put together, and these different elements are controlled to reach the desired outcome. A true custom maker will be able to carefully control these elements to reach a balanced outcome based on your preferences. speed, mass, impact force, weight, balance point, accuracy, flow, etc Some things are impossible to balance, or nearly so, eg a 3 kilo 30 footer which will crack with 1lb of force behind it in the space of one second. The extreme mass simply cannot be controlled to allow for such an energy transfer. Breakdown of what elements effect what. Flow The flow of energy is controlled by the density of the material used and how it is manipulated into a pattern. A four plait belly, with bolster and 16 strand overlay in a regular whip plait, eg, under four over four. has a limited number of connections between each strand, the flexibility of each individual strand is not very well controlled because the number of friction alternations is low. However, that same 16 strands if plaited in an under one, over one, under one, over one, under one, over one, under one, over one pattern will have more alternating friction points, which means the amount of movement being allowed is severely reduced. Resulting in a higher density plait. Higher density means better energy transfer. Obviously this principle is also applied to the inside workings of a whip, a double plait belly will reduce the movement allowance in underlying layers meaning higher density and better energy transfer. Bevels Beveling the strands can be done in many ways, You take the vertical edge of the lace and change it's angle to perhaps 30 degrees instead of 90. If this is done on the fall end of the whip in each lace, and the opposite ( handle ) side beveled at thirty degrees in the opposite direction these strands will sit in more closely to each other, the angles help the lace fall into a perfect position. This results in more a smaller gap size between laces lying side by side. This greatly effects the work. If you think about it like this. If you could see the energy as a line being passed down a solid bar of material, what happens when the energy hits a dip in the road? The shock wave must follow the line of the dip which disturbs the flow of energy. It then flows out from this following reflection and refraction. This effects the efficiency of the energy transfer and therefore throw of the whip. Balance of flow A good balance of flow must be maintained in the above calculations also. A tight sequence like the latter plaited the full length of a whip will not move as much laterally and take a considerably longer time to break in. It's in fact too tight to allow an efficient level of energy transfer. Transition area The area of transition from say a steel cored handle and the leather is important to consider. The energy in a steel bar is unobstructed, the ability for leather to transfer energy is not as smooth, the transition from fast transfer of energy to slow transfer of energy effects much like a traffic jam, it causes things to slow down and get messy. The energy ends up being bounced all around this area and eventually this can result in a broken whip body. In order to reduce this The leather in this area is normally more tightly bound with strong threads to increase density and therefore more smoothly flowing transfer of energy. Taper The amount of taper which I categorize as a ratio from core width at the handle to the core width in the fall area over a limited distance greatly effects the speed of the crack at the end of it's energy transference. A whip with a one inch handle and half inch fall area over six feet, ( 1/2 x 6 ) will move more slowly than a core of a one inch at the handle and 1/4 of an inch at the fall area. ( 1/4 x 6 ) This is because the energy is traveling much more quickly due to the reduced mass inside the whip over the same distance. Taper is controlled in one of three ways inside a whip, more noticeable on the overlay. Tapering strands A 16plait whip which starts with strands a 1/4" wide may be cut in a tapered fashion perhaps down to 3/16" Because the strand is taperd itself the energy transfer is much smoother. Reducing strands Strands are kept the same width during the entire length of the whip, The strands are usually tapered inside the whip lait itself using various methods but at some point that strand ends, inside the main body. This causes two direct effects. 1) The strand lying inside the whip sits up deforming the outer layer. 2) The strand ends. The first example creates an alternate route for the energy to travel along, and the latter causes the energy to jump from the end of the strand to the next point of contact. Tapering and reducing strands. Strands are tapered to a degree causing a more efficient transfer but the strands are also reduced, the loss in reducing the strand is coutner acted by the more efficient tapering shape. Mass The mass of the entire whip is important but everything begins at the handle. A very heavy handle will be harder to control with ease but will begin a larger transfer of energy down the body of the whip. This higher energy level causes two main effects. The fall and crack of the whip will be traveling much more quickly and result is a louder crack with more force behind it. Also the larger amount of energy also has to come to a sudden stop, creating more, heat, noise and friction against the air itself. All these factors destroy the fibres of the crack. In all cases the crack needs to be replaced more often for the same amount of use. Balance Balance is extremely important for the user as it's directly responsible for the ease at which multiple cracks can be made. A whip with the handle weight being equal to the entirety of the weight of the body of the whip will result in a whip which is easy to move from one crack to another without wasting physical energy by moving your arms and hand more. A lighter handle will be more cumbersome, this is all quite similar to lever principles. A heavy handle will take more energy to move around and create a slower whip action. Accuracy Many things effect the accuracy of a whip. The skills of the user are not as vital though obviously they do count. But for the sake of argument we shall say that the whip user is 100% accurate every time. This comes down the following aspects: Bias (alignment) Roll Circle Seams Control Bias The bias of a whip is the way the whip falls naturally when the handle is held out horizontally, if the bias is allowed to drop the fall to the ground and you try and twist the handle, it will feel heavier. This is the bias pulling the whip a certain direction. As you continue the rotation you will see the curve of the whip body move more and more outwards, until it eventually pops back into it's natural bias flips around and drops suddenly. The bias is much more noticeable on a new whip. Now if you turn a whip 180 degrees against it's bias with the fall towards your shoulder, it will sit in an upward rising curve. but it also comes back on itself forming a near circle. On a new whip this self holding circle can be nearly 3 feet wide. Roll and circle. Following on from above, the roll is the distance apart that the body of the whip and the tip end of the whip are apart from each other during the energy transfer. If the BIAS is perfect on every layer, the whip should be touching itself here. If the whip is sitting perfectly vertically during this circle construction but not touching itself then the energy is trying to escape the line of energy which will send the tip of the whip outwards. Not on target. By dropping your hand slowly the circle should move smoothly down the length of the whip getting smaller and smaller as it does so. If it wobbles to the side the energy will shoot outwards. If it flops and appears looser in one area (like a kink) the circle will snap because of the energy transfer. this bounces of the internal layers of the whip and causes the area to loosen and breakdown over time. Seams Seams are the number of friction points around the whip, A 16 strand under four over four sequence of plait continues to the back in an under four over four for example makes a four seam plait. An under two over two, under two over two 16 strand sequence plait will have 8 seams. As noted with the balance and flow elements of construction this increases the density. Takes longer to break in, slows down the roll and increases the circle dimensions, This can be handy for a dramatically slow whip crack for stage work. Control When I say control here, I mean the user control coming from the handle. If the user can move the tip of the handle completely in line with the target and the whip is a good one, then the whip will crack on target. Creating this line is easier to do when the handle is quite long. You have more time to correct the angle during the movement if a mistake in alignment is detected. A shorter handle will not have as much control. A standard sort of length for a target bullwhip is around twelve to fourteen inches, A performance bullwhip may have a handle eight inches long as standard. Stock whips often have handle twice this length in the extreme. All of the above elements and physics principles can be combined in one word. THROW How the whip throws, is the direct result of all of the above factors, describing a whip as "it throws like a noodle" probably means it's not plaited tightly and flops in use. "throws like a needle" may mean it's deadly accurate indoors but it's far too light to stay accurate if the wind catches it. There are probably a million words that can and have been used to describe the throw, but it's common sense to work out why any particular word is used. Throws like a bull probably would be a common term if you kept getting face slapped with the fall. Things to look for when shopping for a whip. Nothing can do as much good as having used a really well made whip and you can do this by visiting stores of a suitable nature or fairs or even finding a custom maker who may live in your area. But if you do not have access to this sort of first hand experience and have to rely on the internet there are a number of things to look for. Overlay Regardless of the taper method used in a whips construction the overlay should be smooth the whole way down the thong with no bumpys or wobbly sections, The plait work should be straight, this is often easier to tell on patterned whips, but the cross over section of the whip plait can easily be followed through the length and doesn't ride too much to the sides in a twisting motion. Full details of the whip construction should be listed in the least and photographed almost as standard showing enough detail on each layer to prove what is being said. It is possible to get a great looking whip in a picture made from a cloth core with an extremely tight plait, so look for details of the construction method. Here are a few terms to look at. Bellies Bellies can be single or double, leather (Naturally falling) or weighted (loaded) Naturally falling is when only leather is used to begin the whip, twisted thicker leathers Bull pizzle (traditional), white hide and kip are the usual methods found. Low plait bellies are standard with the number being most common sitting at four strand. If a second belly is used there are often more strands usually 8, however this can also be a simple four strand to increase the speed with which the whip can be made, density and flow all improve on the introduction of a second belly. Loaded The usual method of loading a whip is to stitch a pigskin, kip, chap leather etc. Even duct taped instead of stitched and this does not affect the results. The leather pouch is formed into a long taper, this can be long or short depending on the desired outcome. This pouch (kip leather, pigskin etc) is filled most often with bird shot lead pellets but other lead pellets are used. Tungsten powder can also be used and it's heavier than lead meaning a heavier whip can be made without automatically implying that it will be a thick whip. Tapering method. Regardless of which tapering method is used, it should specify. If someone is using tapering strands for example, the maker probably spent up to a year getting this preparation process perfect enough to be used in a whip. They will be proud of the fact and should advertise it. The reduction method is somewhat quicker and easier to do but can also reduce the over all costs. Bolsters Bolsters are often used to somewhat pad the plaited layer beneath, and help to smooth out the shape of the taper. They can be thin and even a little flimsy or even quite firm. They can be twisted around the thong, or have a straight seam through the length of it's use. A common construction may be, twisted leather core, bolster, plaited belly, bolster then possibly another belly, bolster and finally an overlay. Type of material Kangaroo is one of the strongest leathers, Red hide skins being the best, Females improving the quality again and using a drum stuffed tanning process on top will dramatically increase the strength of the laces used. Using this type of leather allows for very fine strands of even 1mm to be used and still pulled very tightly. It certainly is not necessary for 16 plait whips but the 16 plait with this leather will be extremely tight and take a little longer to break in. Cow hides Come in many forms being more common in every day use and careful research should be done on this. Simply stating cowhide doesn't mean much, Chrome tanned (the commercially most common form of tanning) results in a much weaker hide with the fibres being broken down all too much. Vegetable tanned is much stronger, holds it's natural oils better and longer and breaks down the internal fibres much much less. Cowhides will rarely be split to very low thickness ratings because it is a little weaker, but you can still get very strong plaits from cowhide, especially if the laces are beveled. Nylon Nylon used to have this stigma about it in the whip world, older nylon whips have died out. Now a days nylon whips use para cord can be pulled very tightly and can out perform a lesser quality leather whip. It is important to judge nylon and leather on an equal playing field. Nylon reduces costs usually by half but give a low budget user a reliable means of play. Nylon can also be beaten and abused more than leather on surfaces such as concrete. Dacron This is a technologically more advanced material than nylon, extremely strong, and lighter weight. A 10 foot Dacron whip may weigh only as much as a 5-6 foot leather whip. It is rare to find a whip maker who uses it, but those who do can deliver extremely high quality whips.

It would be nice also for older phones to have the lofi recognise a Mobile being used, otherwise when I go from there to here I have to check out of the lofi version just because I was signed into it before.

Does anyone know a good a reliable method of measuring the thickness of the lace you split? I am not at home right now but, would paper sheets one on top of the other cover it? or would that be too inaccurate? How about wrapping three or four times around something and measuring this? Any one come up with anything in the past?

Some of those pineapple variations are absolutely beautiful. Love them. Makes me want to go home and play with a few ideas. but the pub is still more interesting right now. lol

This is an interesting topic for me aswell, I do market my products as eco friendly, and that we use all natural materials. Some of those materials ie steel ball bearings do cost money, heat, labor etc to produce but it's still a natural material This also includes the use of recycled chrome tanned leathers, Ie sofa leathers. I think it would however come down to the tanning process itself in chrome tanned leather. The main questions that spring to mind are: Does chrome tanning use chemicals that are more expensive to produce than veg tanning does? (eg filtering process of bark manual labor etc) Do you require licenses to use said chemicals (licensing gives your money to an organised restriction system which comes out of tax money). Does the waste of the veg tanned extraction system get put back in to use as mulch etc, doubling the number of uses of a single materials? I know little about chrome tanning process of yesterday or today. but I am hoping someone can answer these.

Thanks bevan, I hope they lose...sorry. I was trying to work out the math on cutting your own, and came up with this roughly $90 for your own hide. (bevan) 6mm/1/4" - 50 yards 6mm/1/4" - 50 yards 6mm/1/4" - 50 yards 3mm/1/8" - 50 yards 3mm - 10m 150 yards at 6mm from yknot $91 for 54 yards - $253 + $41 for 54 yards = $294 250% mark up on lace And it's not even stretched or split to the same thickness from the cheapest place I know off, i'll not even go into tandys UK prices at £2.50 per metre... So basically in two hides you can buy a strander and splitter.... I think the stuff I am after is $120 - Drum stuffed - Red species - 8sq' Because I want to do quite fine work, I would be likely cutting a maximum 5mm but more likely 4mm on average which should get me 250 yards or so by your size calculations but the larger hide probably adds 20-30 yards more at least I had no idea the mark up was quite that high so there is no way I am going to be using pre-bought again. I also had no idea you got quite so much out of a hide, I thought most roo skins were quite small in the output. ROO4u I also suspect most people using prebought aren't splitting or beveling the lace which adds to the effect you are talking about, like my last whip there, I didn't even split it, I was too concerned with damaging it with my hand made splitter, but I have been splitting all the left overs this week and hopefully I can have something made up soon. I have designers block though, I have all these ideas for it but nothing is fitting me at the moment.

You would probably also get a good finish working up the grits using a mouse mat and sandpaper, due to the convex nature of the tip.

I didn't know about Yknotlace before, As when I ordered I used Spring field leather. Has anyone got a direct comparison of colour for colour from each company? If so, tell me and everyone else here what your opinions of it are please. Bevan, can I also ask you, what size of skin are you cutting from on average to get your lace. And just so I am clear, roughly you are getting 6mm/1/4" - 50 yards 6mm/1/4" - 50 yards 6mm/1/4" - 50 yards 3mm/1/8" - 50 yards Losing about 4mm in stretch... And roughly 10-12 feet in 3mm from the end circle?

THanks guys, johanna, you have my sympathy, between my death spasms that is. I am just thinking of the six pack I will have by the time I am better again.

In the last three weeks I have had a chest infection followed by jaundice and now I have the flu. Can I just take this opportunity to say screw the universe. give me a frigging break already.

No, badger is actually really really soft, that's why it's used for brushes, by the time you get to a second or third pass with the straight razor all the old dead skin cells have been completely removed, a not so soft brush irritates like crazy. I am not even going to be testing it with badger though, I have an old synthetic brush just, once my badger brush arrives I will be using it to shave with. A real test is going to have to wait but the synthetic might do it for now.

Indeed, Finally got to look through it and yes, theres some really nice work in there. I wouldn't mind sitting having a chat with a few of them. It does remind me that we are really very modern on this forum. I think we should all endeavor to study the older ways more...

Na, all I am getting is the first 8 pages, i'll try it again when I can borrow someone elses internet

I had to read it twice but I think I know what you mean, I am not sure badger can handle that sort of stress But I can find out. Thanks Aggie, great idea as always.

Can someone please point out exactly where this braid work is, I have a broadband dongle and so far alls I can see is sculptures and paintings.

I have in the last few months taken up straight razor shaving finally, after many years of trying to get into it. And I had a thought the other day, what happens if you cross stampede strings with tassels with badger hair... I have no idea whether it would work but I need help to find out. So, how would I go about putting the hairs from an old shaving brush into the end of a braid? One thought I had was to glue the hairs into something about the right size...like twice the four strand braid I intend to use and then joining that up with a knot of some sort over it, It would be pretty small this way but probably not very tight either. So I don't know hoe to go about it. Any ideas? I mean how is it normally done with horse hair?

Possibly thats true Roo4u, Just let us know about any developments KH.

Nice looking fob KW. Now, I heard a long time ago that rubber and leather should never be in direct contact with each other, something to do with the fumes of one effecting the other or the oils in the leather effecting the rubber most likely. Not sure how much of an affect this has, but it's something to think about. Oils are well known to degrade rubber.