Spyros

By the way, I don't think that the 441 and various clones are actual industrial machines. I know we call them that to differentiate from household fabric machines, and maybe they were industrial years ago, but not in 2022. Why do I say this? Because if you look at what Juki recommends on their website to actual industrial manufacturing operations, the type that have a whole factory floor full of machines, they recommend computerised machines. Juki sells automation, remote monitoring, robotic arms, and integrated connected systems of all sorts. The machines that we buy and talk about here are just machines suitable for leather, that's all. And it wouldn't surprise me if they are sold predominantly to small businesses and hobbyists, and maybe some cheaper mass production operations in places with cheap labour.

I haven't bought a wood lathe, I made my own :D But I was very close to the purchase of 5 axis C&C from Taiwan for a cabinet making operation 3 years ago (the owner is a friend), and these people in Taiwan were connected online 24/7 and monitoring & tuning the machine remotely from their head office, and they had a tech 24/7 chat service because that was their preferred mode of communication. Which actually worked very well because talking on the phone to someone with a accent can be exhausting. I also remember they didn't have a dealer in AU so a guy flew in for a week for the installation and training. It took weeks to get the thing perfect, after that the cabinet maker's questions dwindled, but they remained available and kept monitoring the machine online. But that machine was in the hundreds of thousands.

I think you have it backwards here Matt. From page 14 in Juki's corporate report, their sales (in value) are 61% household and 39% industrial. For their industrial sector, in page 21, they list their 2nd and 3rd main services (after #1 "providing reliable machines") as: 2. Providing sewing machine functions and sewing knowledge at the workshop. We hold workshops periodically with customers to deepen their knowledge about sewing and their experience with sewing machine functions by dividing the sewing hobby genres into “dressmaking,” “small articles and bags,” “doll costumes,” and “quilts.” The workshops are directed by artists who excel at producing the articles with the best machines for the task. 3. Providing sales and technical support covering the world. Our customers are supported by a global sales and technical network for industrial sewing machines. JUKI holds various workshops on sewing machine mechanisms, techniques to achieve beautiful seams, and methods to use and maintain products to offer “peace of mind.” And if you go to their website, under "Industrial sewing machines", there is a crapload under E-Learning, workshop design, parts list, manuals, the lot. Now, that's Juki, their industrial sewing machine sector is worth about $300m sales a year, so they're big enough and sell expensive machines. So you could say they are mainly aimed at big, automated industrial operations who can afford these prices. And still they offer *a lot* of education and support. The cheaper ones (basically the clones, Cowboy/Cobra/Techsew) absolutely have a significant clientele of one man operations and hobbyists for their industrial machines, as proven for example by this video: This video has 80k views, that's not the technician at the Nike factory or the procurement manager at Luis Vuitton watching it, they have better sources and they wouldn't buy clones anyway. That's 80k randoms like me who have bought it or are close to buying it and are scrambling for resources to figure out how the damn thing works. And 80k customers/potential customers for a very specialised machine in a very small & niche market is a *huge* number for those small companies. The point I'm trying to make is that providing information and support to all types of customers is absolutely in the best interest of every company, big and small alike. It's just that some companies like Juki have the resources to do it, and others don't. The other thing you said that professionals and big concerns don't need to be advertised at, I disagree with that as well. They get advertised & marketed at and outright chased but through different channels: roadshows, house visits and presentations with targeted material, tenders, and outright bribes sometimes :D And I also disagree with the idea that leatherworking is a vanishing hobby. Maybe people are saying so because they see that Tandy is near death, but that's just because people got smarter with their shopping. And most people find it easier to look for a video that answers their question instantly rather than post a question at LW.net and wait a day for an answer, so you won't see them in numbers in this forum either. Youtube has given a big boost to people who google "how to make a pouch". Just look at the views man, look at how many online shops with super-specialised stuff there are on Etsy and Ebay. That's not vanishing, that looks more like booming to me. BTW out of curiosity, what are the considerable resources that Weaver has invested in the hobbyist market? Chuck Dorsett doing a series of short videos by himself and sending some stuff to Corter Leather and Jimmy DiResta to use online? Is that it?

Nah I don't think so... they just don't have the resources.

With that said, I obviously have no idea what leather this is, but you can make something that looks pretty much identical just with veg tan and dying only one side, like Hags said. That stitch on the keeper looks like a pain in the butt, I'd replace it with one rivet.

I will now admit my biggest shorftall as a leatherworker, after having bought thousands of dollars worth of leather. Friends and family who know I make bags often show me their bag and ask me to tell them if it's good leather, or even if it's leather at all. Aaaaand more often than not, I have no idea I can only really tell veg from chrome if I start working it and see how it cuts, how (and if) it burnishes, how it stretches, what colour is the inside (chrome often has that tell-tale bluish hue). Unless I do all that I just don't know, I have actually held a leatherette bag that I could swear was leather.

Not impossible, just unthinkable. Car sales would plummet 90% if you told people they have to learn to drive, maintain and repair their car on their own, with the help of a 5 page manual in Chin-glish. By the way cars is not my analogy, it's Tsunkasapa's, I'm just explaining why it's a bad one. Cars have a *massive* support network, sewing machines have close to zero.

No, but I would go through driving lessons with an instructor and pass a test and get a license first. And then if if the car breaks there are authorised service stations and mechanics in your neighbourhood. In sewing machines you pay a not-so-insignificant amount of money and then you're on your own. With instructions and guesstimates given by people on a forum, from the other side of the planet, out of the kindness of their heart basically. Because your other option is to pack the machine on a pallet and pay to send it back where it came from, and then wait for weeks for the mom and pop dealer to do something about it. Chrisash is not wrong, it is a little bit crazy if you think about it.

If you look at who those dealers are, you'll find in most countries it's like a dude and his wife sort of thing. Sewing machines sales are so infrequent that this is all it takes, but it probably leaves no time for marketing activities.

Makers and sellers are often entirely different companies. The maker is usually in China and has nothing to do with you as a customer, it's the seller/distributor in your country that you want to be more active.

Ivan has the metal strap cutter on special for $20 and I ordered one. Couldn't help myself, too shiny LOL They have a $50 minimum order but they also sell Fiebings stuff that I needed so I thought I may as well. I'll let you know what it's like when I get it

Ι'd blow it all on drugs and women personally, but hey LOL

I reckon you can do 80-90% of common leatherworking tasks with a cobra class 4 / CB4500 and a narrow throat plate. If you absolutely must. And if you're happy to change needles & thread frequently, and make a big flatbed attachment and add/remove it frequently, and fiddle with settings frequently. It won't be the most convenient, or the fastest, and it will forever be a setup that feels more comfortable/at home with heavier leather, but I reckon you can. But ideally you want this, plus a high speed garment flatbed machine, a heavier flatbed, and a post bed. And an old Singer. And a Chinese patcher. As a minimum :D

I wake up in cold sweat thinking about open dye bottles on the bench LOL Nicely done!

Well I don't have that machine (yet) but just logically speaking: It looks like you skived the long edge, then you removed the piece and turned it 90 degrees to do the short edge, but then the first thing that entered the machine is the part that had already been skived before. So you effectively double skived that bit, and because you started from an already very thin leather, double skiving it resulted in no leather. You can see it in the photos, the parts that have holes is where the long and the short skive overlap. I guess when you're working with such thin leather you just have to remember not to cross-skive the same bits. There must be some technique to achieve that, I'm sure someone who owns a bell skiver will let us know.

Thank you sir. I find it looks good if it's polished well. This one went through 9 grits of sandpaper all the way down to steel wool

They say they are Japanese made and are considered much better than the chinese fortuna type clones, but I'm just going off comments on videos etc, no personal experience.

^Nice Now I want to make another one

When I was making mine I knew I couldn't answer the balance question until it was all finished and I held it in my hand. Because it's a totally different story using a maul for carving, these guys only tap lightly with twists of the wrist, and very different when you use it for everything, like I do. So what I did, I bought a whole bunch of 40mm washers, and I made the HDPE part hollow in the top and bottom, and it had a removable top and a threaded rod running through it. And when it as all finished I had the option to add and remove washers from the top and the bottom and secure them in place with a nut, until I had exactly the weight and balance that I wanted.

All good, all good. But I said *common* leather projects, saddles aren't common. Well at least in most of the world they arent, but then again you are in Wyoming

I didn't do wiz's setup, just the narrow plate. I order all my leather from overseas, except for kangaroo. So I'm used to my leather going half the globe before it gets to me. If that doesn't scare you, I get my kangaroo from this mob: https://www.austanners.com.au/

Yesterday I was stitching a zipper on 0.8mm kangaroo with a cowboy 4500. It did it. The day before that an apron out of thin upholstery leather that was soft as chewing gum. No problems.

Sure, I don't disagree. But a hammer, handsaw and pocket knife can also NOT make about 90% of common woodworking projects, at least not to any kind of quality and finishing. Unless you want to spend a month carving out a chair with a pocket knife. In leatherworking however with a drawer worth of tools you can literally make 90% of common leather projects (except shoes). And you can make them to absolute perfection and within a very reasonable timeframe. That's the difference, and the appeal. In leatherworking you get a lot of "finished project" satisfaction for very little initial outlay.

I know, I know, I just got lazy... I removed some teeth, but the zipper shifted slightly and when I realised I needed to remove more I convinced myself instead that the needle would naturally find its way between the teeth. Nope. Lesson learned. Thanks for the chart

I know, I've been telling everybody here that leatherworking is extremely cheap, they don't believe me