Another 29-4 Problem Post

[GreenwoodBowcraft]

Good morning Folks, 

Please let me apologize for posting yet another request for help on this equipment. I do see and have read nearly all of the other topics, however it seems any posts before this recent forum visual upgrade/change are no longer showing pictures for me so I'm unable to see if my problems align with what others have experienced/resolved. 

I've not yet found the serial number for this machine but here are the details I have so far.

It's a 29-4 Singer Cobbler's Patcher. It was my wife's great grandfathers, then her grandfathers, then her dad's who recently gave it to me. I suspect her dad never used it much. It sat in a corner. After bringing it home, I picked up some "Type-B" oil in all of the recommended places and let it sit for an hour before cranking the wheel. Within a couple of turns it was very loose and felt great. It was still oiled every few years when not in use, a habit her dad never got out of after having it drilled into him as the son of a shoe-repair man. 

I picked up a new shuttle, bobbins, the proper needles for both #69 and #92 thread from Landwerlan Leather Supply in Indianapolis. Following the instructions in the manual I threaded the bobbin and shuttle with brand new #69 bonded nylon thread. Then I threaded the machine using the manual instructions and the same thread. 

Initially, I was able to get the bottom thread picked up after a turn or two but it would not start even the first stitch. After about an hour I took a closer look at the needle and discovered that it was in backwards (the long channel on the #69 thread needle was quite easy to miss). After turning the needle around I thought I was in good shape. It picked up the bottom thread right away and I commenced sewing. After about an inch I noticed the leather was no longer being moved by the foot and the needle had started to hit the same hole a couple of times. 

I backed the needle out and attempted to move the piece of leather. It was FIRMLY rooted to the post as the top thread appears to have made several loops but never actually came off the shuttle. I ended up having to take an exacto knife and cutting the individual threads to free the leather. The shuttle had several remnants of top thread that needed to be pulled out before I could remove the shuttle. the bottom thread remained free and easily turned. 

I then pulled all of the thread back from the machine, rethreaded it, re-loaded the bobbin & shuttle and tried again. Same result. I've included a link to some pictures. One of how the machine is threaded on top. One of how it is threaded at the bottom (when I took the picture I had pulled the top thread out from the hole in the presser foot but it was otherwise in the appropriate location. I've also included a picture of what the bottom of the leather and the shuttle look like after a couple of stitches are run, and then the leather is cut free. 

Does anyone have any ideas as to what I can try next? Thank you for your time! 

Google Drive Album: Singer Machine Issues

I apologize for not posting the pictures here directly, it's just that my phone takes extremely high res photos and I'm hoping to convey as much detail as possible. 

 

 

 

[Constabulary]

That is a quite unusual foot you have installed, I actually never have seen one like this before. I assume that your foot has no teeth / is smooth on the underside right? That's most likely the problem. The 29 Class machines are top feed only machines and usually need a toothed foot to feed the material properly.

You could also try to increase the foot pressure. Give the thumb screw on the right end of the blade spring a few turns and try again. But it may have an influence on the stitch length but anyway give it a try and check the underside of your presser foot.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Constabulary

[sandyt]

It looks to me tou need more top tension. 

And your needle plate looks very worn on one side. The hole is very big. Use the other side.

[GreenwoodBowcraft]

17 minutes ago, sandyt said:

It looks to me tou need more top tension. 

And your needle plate looks very worn on one side. The hole is very big. Use the other side.

Thanks, I'll switch sides. Do you mean I need my tension on the top thread, or I need to somehow increase the tension on the take-up leather?

[GreenwoodBowcraft]

23 minutes ago, Constabulary said:

That is a quite unusual foot you have installed, I actually never have seen one like this before. I assume that your foot has no teeth / is smooth on the underside right? That's most likely the problem. The 29 Class machines are top feed only machines and usually need a toothed foot to feed the material properly.

You could also try to increase the foot pressure. Give the thumb screw on the right end of the blade spring a few turns and try again. But it may have an influence on the stitch length but anyway give it a try and check the underside of your presser foot.

Thanks for your advice! The foot has the teeth on the bottom (which I can see being problematic for anything like veg-tanned leather). After adjusting the block on the spring arm, the leather is moved quite well by that foot. I'll give that thumb screw a shot as well and see if that has any effect. The problem was only initially apparent after an inch or so of stitching when the leather stopped moving with the foot, but instead wanted to turn since it was rooted in place with the several pieces of thread hooked inside the shuttle. 

[vonkas]

To start with, your machine needs to  be adjusted to factory specs. With most of these kind of problems people miss this important point. Buying a used machine, which potentially is maladjusted and without printed instructions (factory adjustment manual), is the same as a machine with missing parts. After my first expensive lesson, I subsequently have bought machines cheap because people have given up working with them, but I knew that I could get a manual. Adjusting is not trivial even with instructions. It is utterly hopeless without. Period. By the way, I have had great cooperation from Pfaff for example in obtaining manuals. Of course there are plenty of sources to be found online as well.

Edited April 6, 2016 by vonkas

[GreenwoodBowcraft]

2 minutes ago, vonkas said:

To start with, your machine needs to  be adjusted to factory specs. With most of these kind of problems people miss this important point. Buying a used machine, which potentially is maladjusted and without printed instructions (factory adjustment manual), is the same as a machine with missing parts. After my first expensive lesson, I subsequently have bought machines cheap because people have given up working with them, but I knew that I could get a manual. Adjusting is not trivial even with instructions. It is utterly hopeless without. Period.

My intention is not to be rude.. I have attempted to be thorough in both my testing and explanation of the problem. Are you able to point me towards instructions you have found helpful in restoring a machine to factory settings? The machine wasn't purchased, it was just a gift. As far as her father was aware it worked perfectly when they stored it. Again, I apologize, I don't intend to be rude I just find that giving direction on how to do something, rather than just saying it's being done wrong is more productive and helpful. 

Additionally, I did in fact use the manual to set up the machine that is widely available online regarding threading, setting the needle, setting the shuttle, loading the bobbin, in addition to the incredibly sparse troubleshooting instructions. "What to do if your top thread gets tangled on the bottom of the work" is not a topic covered there. I also read nearly every thread on this site containing the words 29k and 29-4 and Singer Patcher. I haven't just brought a machine home, sat down, stitched for 4 minutes and come to the forums. I've spent nearly 8 hours troubleshooting, cleaning, and testing not counting the online research.

[sandyt]

Not very familiar with this machine. Played a few times with it a few years ago. I don't know how or if the take up lever can be adjusted.

I meant just increase the tension on the top thread. That's the most obvious. Or am I missing something? If it doesn't work, just turn it back. It looks backed up pretty far.

[GreenwoodBowcraft]

13 hours ago, sandyt said:

Not very familiar with this machine. Played a few times with it a few years ago. I don't know how or if the take up lever can be adjusted.

I meant just increase the tension on the top thread. That's the most obvious. Or am I missing something? If it doesn't work, just turn it back. It looks backed up pretty far.

As it turns out, that did go a long way towards helping me out. I'm now getting (about 2/3 of the time) very consistent and reliable top stitches. They are no longer getting hung up on the shuttle.

This did present a new problem, the bottom stitch is laying almost flat against the leather resulting in very poor strength stitches. The manual for the machine indicates that can be the result of not enough lower tension. The little spring plate on the shuttle will not tighten at all. I can loosen it but it seems to be as tight as it can be. There is virtually no resistance to pulling the thread out. 

I wonder if I shim between the head of the tightening screw and the spring if I can get more adjustment to tighten it?

[Northmount]

Top tension pulls the knots up, bottom tension pulls the knots down.  Too much bottom tension or not enough top tension will leave the bottom thread laying on the bottom, not being pulled up into the leather.  Doesn't matter what type of lockstitch sewing machine you are using.  They work on the same principles.  The two tensions have to be balanced against each other.  There should be some tension on the shuttle thread, but easy to pull, and smooth.  I would first increase the top tension some more, unless it is difficult to pull the top thread through the tension assembly.

Tom

[GreenwoodBowcraft]

1 minute ago, northmount said:

Top tension pulls the knots up, bottom tension pulls the knots down.  Too much bottom tension or not enough top tension will leave the bottom thread laying on the bottom, not being pulled up into the leather.  Doesn't matter what type of lockstitch sewing machine you are using.  They work on the same principles.  The two tensions have to be balanced against each other.  There should be some tension on the shuttle thread, but easy to pull, and smooth.  I would first increase the top tension some more, unless it is difficult to pull the top thread through the tension assembly.

Tom

Thanks! I tried last night to increase it some, but the top thread was breaking. I suspect that has more to do with how the top thread is held. I purchased one of the larger spools and I can tell the "mount" has been rigged, it's a block of wood with a post. There is more tension generated from trying to spin the spool than the tension discs so I've been running out some slack on that end before starting. I think I may try to rewind it on a smaller spool or come up with a more elegant solution. 

[Northmount]

Are you using a spool or a cone of thread.  Cones are usually setup to pull the thread vertically off the top of the cone, not having to turn the cone.  ANd yes, if a spool adds more resistance, it increases the top tension.  Tension needs to be consistent. 

Sounds like you need to reduce the bottom tension.  Go slow, little adjustments each time.

Tom

 

[GreenwoodBowcraft]

That makes much more sense. I did purchase the cone. I'll try winding down to a spool, or maybe a rig to pull from the top of the cone that wont offer any additional tension. 

[shoepatcher]

One thing I would look at is the small , paddle shaped tension spring that is a the lower part of the needle bar.  This serves the purpose of keep a constant tension on the needle thread from the take up lever to the needle.  A lot of times this spring is either broke or has a grove worn in it by the thread.  the only way to access the spring is by pulling the needle bar.  To do so, you must completely remove the needle clamp and then drive out the tapered pin that connect s the needle bar to the drive piston.  The pin is driven out from back to front.

The tangle in the bobbin case is normally caused either by the hook not picking up the needle thread or  the needle thread not clearing the hook as it goes around the hook. 

As to the foot, I have never seen one like this in 40 years of working on Singer shoe patchers.  I think this one was custom made.  Is there any part # on it?..  I would purchase a generic foot #82007 and try that  as well.  Hope that helps. 

glenn

[jimi]

Hi There, did you try using the small needle hole on the other end of your needle plate?? because the big hole is way too big and if it is not smooth on the edges it will cut your thread??

Edited April 7, 2016 by jimi

[vonkas]

On 6 April 2016 at 6:44 AM, GreenwoodBowcraft said:

My intention is not to be rude.. I have attempted to be thorough in both my testing and explanation of the problem. Are you able to point me towards instructions you have found helpful in restoring a machine to factory settings? The machine wasn't purchased, it was just a gift. As far as her father was aware it worked perfectly when they stored it. Again, I apologize, I don't intend to be rude I just find that giving direction on how to do something, rather than just saying it's being done wrong is more productive and helpful. 

Additionally, I did in fact use the manual to set up the machine that is widely available online regarding threading, setting the needle, setting the shuttle, loading the bobbin, in addition to the incredibly sparse troubleshooting instructions. "What to do if your top thread gets tangled on the bottom of the work" is not a topic covered there. I also read nearly every thread on this site containing the words 29k and 29-4 and Singer Patcher. I haven't just brought a machine home, sat down, stitched for 4 minutes and come to the forums. I've spent nearly 8 hours troubleshooting, cleaning, and testing not counting the online research.

Assuming that everything is adjusted by the book, then either your needle is the wrong type (right side thread grove instead of left, wrong length or position of scarf or not moved home in clamp due to gunk) or the thread isn't matched to the needle or it;s simply mounted incorrectly. This is of course assuming that all other parts of the machine are the correct ones for the model and machine tolerances are to spec (not worn). Sometimes a spec of rust can introduce enough friction to throw things out. All this information is in the "Factory Adjustment Manual" without which you have only a slim chance to get it right. For example, many machines have adjustable timing, the relation between the needle stroke and the hook position. This can go out of sync if the machine stalls through overload. Usually the correct positions of components are not marked and are observed visually during the adjustment process. Again the manual will tell you how to check and adjust the timing. An experienced sewing machine repair parson can do this without book, as all machines work by similar principles. I would like to help more but I do not have the books for your machine. Just like me with my first machine, you might "cut your teeth" with your Singer. If you get it right you will have learned a great deal and you'll be able to judge the condition when you buy your next machine. So don't give up unless you learn that someone has stuffed your machine up with non factory parts that you cannot replace.

Edited April 7, 2016 by vonkas

[Uwe]

@vonkasCould you please post a PDF version of your factory adjustment manual here so we can all learn from it? Thanks in advance.

[GreenwoodBowcraft]

7 minutes ago, Uwe said:

@vonkasCould you please post a PDF version of your factory adjustment manual here so we can all learn from it? Thanks in advance.

I agree, that would be helpful. The Singer 29-4 manual PDF online I have found has some basic adjustment and troubleshooting.

I do suspect that the timing is the issue. What I'm finding is now consistently happening after increasing the upper tension and setting the spool up to expel thread correctly is that the top loop is not coming off of the shuttle hook. The stitches are breaking at that point on every single cycle. Increasing the top tension any higher results in the top thread breaking. The work is moving (about 6-7 stitches/inch) but I can feel resistance right at the start of the up-stroke of the needle right as the thread breaks on the hook.

[Constabulary]

Is the machine feeding the material meanwhile? I guess your stitch length is set on max. right? You know, sometimes these old patchers are very worn and especially the bell crank lever often is worn of on its tip. If the tip is worn off the machine is not feeding properly or produces only very short stitches. How is the gib of the stitch length adjuster installed? The flattened wedge has to be up.

Please post a full views of the backside.

These patchers are sometimes mystical.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Constabulary

[GreenwoodBowcraft]

22 minutes ago, Constabulary said:

Is the machine feeding the material meanwhile? I guess your stitch length is set on max. right? You know, sometimes these old patchers are very worn and especially the bell crank lever often is worn of on its tip. If the tip is worn off the machine is not feeding properly or produces only very short stitches. How is the gib of the stitch length adjuster installed? The flattened wedge has to be up.

Please post a full views of the backside.

These patchers are sometimes mystical.

Thanks Constabulary, I will definitely share some full pictures of the back end this evening. The material is feeding very well. It seems to be set on max-length. I understand 6-7 stitches per inch to be less than ideal, but it would work for my small purposes. 

As a matter of fact, your comment got me to thinking that of all the pictures I've used for comparison, the back is a piece I've not seen. After searching everywhere I found one to compare with my memory of the machine (I'm on lunch at my day-job). 

The little "paddle/lever" thing here that rests on this shoulder that goes up and down on my machine does not rest on that shoulder. It hangs down. It is plenty long enough to make it over that shoulder, but I couldn't reason a way that it could get over the shoulder without removing it, so I assumed it must not go there. This picture shows it how I imagined it would go. I wonder if this part of the struggle I'm having.

[Constabulary]

Thats why I have asked - this lever is sometime is installed the wrong way (with the bump up) or as in your case hangs down. Remove the blade spring, remove the screw of the lever but the parts back together and I´m sure this will solve your problem - see attached picture - this is how it should look.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Constabulary

[catskin]

One thing that has not been suggested concerning bottom thread tension is there may be lint or dirt under the tension spring on the bobbin holder/ shuttle. try taking out the screw that holds the little leaf tension spring on and see if there might be something under it that stops it from tightening down far enough.

[ndnchf]

Did the original poster's problem get resolved?  This is an interesting thread, but it left us hanging!

[Cascabel]

I have found that bobbin tension springs are sometimes over-tightened, which actually can cause loss of tension because the "bow" of the spring gets flattened out.   Bobbin tension springs should be adjusted in SMALL increments, like a quarter turn at a time.   This applies to ALL bobbin tension springs.

[graywolf]

Since the OP dropped the tread in the middle, I guess he either got it working or just gave up. BUT..

As an electro/mechanical tech with about sixty years experience, I can assure folks that machinery goes out of adjustment, or even breaks, just sitting around not being used. Who knows why, maybe the gremlins play with them at night? The point I am trying to make is that "It worked the last time it was used", means nothing whatsoever. Sometimes even when the last time it was used was yesterday.