Saddle Stitching - Looks Good on the Backside

[superpacker]

I know the default recommendation on this forum is to consult Nigel's saddle stitch tutorial video. This is understandable as it's concise and easy to follow - I've used all of his suggestions, and get nice clean rows of stitching - my problem is that it is only the backside of the item that the signature "S" pattern will appear, whereas on the front,  just get essentially straight stitches. I would prefer those S's to be on the front side. I'm following his instructions to the "T" and can't figure out what is amiss. I will either use diamond chisels and punch all the way through or use the chisel as a pricking iron and then punch the holes with an awl. Either way doesn't seem to make a difference. Like I said, I'm getting nice stitching either way, but the back looks better than the front. Any ideas?

For reference, I'm frequently using .6 Tiger thread. the front piece of the item is on my left side, with stitch holes slanted towards me and im stitching towards me. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by superpacker

[DJole]

The first thing that comes to my mind is the "casting" of the thread. One needle goes through a hole, and then the other thread goes OVER or UNDER the first thread before the second needle is pushed through the hole. Depending on the direction of the slanted hole, going over or under should make that slanted stitch work. Maybe that's the problem?

[alpha2]

I stitch with the front side on the right, and holes slanted down towards me, stitching towards me. First needle is my right hand, through to the left side, second needle comes under the first, then back through to the right side, cast over, thread pulled down on the right side and either level or slightly up on the left side. Comes out nice on the front side, more straight on the back.

I'd suggest laying out a few rows of holes on a practice piece, label them for a couple inches at least with various ways of stitching, and see what looks best.

Jeff

[superpacker]

DJole, normally I’d say your spot on, but I’m meticulous at making sure I’m casting over the first thread. Alpha 2, in my mind this seems like a possible solution, so I’m gonna give this a  go.

[Bolt Vanderhuge]

Are you using a groover to cut out stitch lines? If so then stop. By grooving you are creating a narrow channel that will force the stitches towards the center of the groove. I mark the lines by creating a very shallow line on the surface of the leather. This lets the tread stay at the ends of the holes and gives the zigzag you already have in the back.

 

As for stitching/placement I have the front of the item on the right side not the left.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Bolt Vanderhuge

[niakulah]

7 hours ago, superpacker said:

I know the default recommendation on this forum is to consult Nigel's saddle stitch tutorial video. This is understandable as it's concise and easy to follow - I've used all of his suggestions, and get nice clean rows of stitching - my problem is that it is only the backside of the item that the signature "S" pattern will appear, whereas on the front,  just get essentially straight stitches. I would prefer those S's to be on the front side. I'm following his instructions to the "T" and can't figure out what is amiss. I will either use diamond chisels and punch all the way through or use the chisel as a pricking iron and then punch the holes with an awl. Either way doesn't seem to make a difference. Like I said, I'm getting nice stitching either way, but the back looks better than the front. Any ideas?

For reference, I'm frequently using .6 Tiger thread. the front piece of the item is on my left side, with stitch holes slanted towards me and im stitching towards me. 

Nigel does have a paid Vimeo channel where he has a video explaining how to get a nice slant on both sides. Lots of other useful videos as well.

 

But since you want just the front to be nice, wouldn't the easiest way be to simply swap the leather around?

 

[Tugadude]

1 hour ago, niakulah said:

Nigel does have a paid Vimeo channel where he has a video explaining how to get a nice slant on both sides. Lots of other useful videos as well.

 

But since you want just the front to be nice, wouldn't the easiest way be to simply swap the leather around?

 

Not necessarily going to work because now the holes are oriented the wrong way.  If they were sloping towards you, switching sides makes them slope away from you.  Bolt brought up a good point regarding a groover.  Too deep of a hole will force the stitch to flatten out while on the opposite  side, the stitch is free to do what it wants.  The dynamics of the angled stitch are pretty simple.  The thread needs to be forced to the top of the hole and run downwards to the bottom of the next hole.  Tricky part is getting the thread to cooperate and do it consistently!

[niakulah]

1 hour ago, Tugadude said:

Not necessarily going to work because now the holes are oriented the wrong way.  If they were sloping towards you, switching sides makes them slope away from you.  Bolt brought up a good point regarding a groover.  Too deep of a hole will force the stitch to flatten out while on the opposite  side, the stitch is free to do what it wants.  The dynamics of the angled stitch are pretty simple.  The thread needs to be forced to the top of the hole and run downwards to the bottom of the next hole.  Tricky part is getting the thread to cooperate and do it consistently!

Hmmm....you're probably right. Which got me thinking how I managed to do just that.

 

I probably flipped it around and upside down as well to maintain the hole orientation. Bearing in mind that this was during my beginner days when I didn't have a pony or any other sort of clamp to get in the way. Wait that doesn't make sense. Scratch that.

 

Nowadays, the way I stitch I can pretty much go in any direction, I just change the way I cross my needles (over or under) and which hand goes in first.

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by niakulah

[stormcrow]

I think the following was my first post on the forum Saddle Stitch but it may be of some help to you.

I was asking about using right needle priority in the post but the photos I attached were using left hand priority as described in Nigels video and I believe it is that method you are using.

I get a good slant on the left side using this method and the right side is not as good as you will see.

[Tugadude]

I think it is always worthwhile to grab a piece of scrap and practice different techniques.  There is a recipe that works for most folks most of the time, but there are combinations that require experimentation.  Combinations of leather type and thickness, thread, irons, all have an effect on the outcome.

[bikermutt07]

I was having the same problem for a long time. Then I watched Nigel's review of the Wuta irons. He stitches a lot of rows on this video without explaining in terms of right priority yada yada yada. I always found that terminology confusing.

What I discovered in that video was that I was basically causing my stitches to be backwards.

Let me explain. Earlier on I had watched Ian's video about casting a loop to make the back more slanted. Somewhere along the way I got confused with that technique. I was actually causing my front side of my stitch to the top of the hole after casting underneath it on the back. This caused a zig zag on the back and a straight line on the front.

After watching Nigel's review of the Wuta irons, here is what I do.

Pick the front. It doesn't matter which direction you are stitching. Make the front needle go to the bottom of the hole. Make the back needle go to the top of the hole. Simple. 

The front will zig zag and the back will be straight. But, as I see it, the back is the back. 

[Tugadude]

Not trying to be disagreeable, but on many items front and back are somewhat nebulous terms.  On a wallet, for example, is the outside the front?  Shouldn't inside and outside look as similar as possible?  Using the logic that the back is the back means one or the other is going to suffer.  So if you are wanting a slant, you should really try to make both front and back resemble a zig-zag.  One exception might be a belt because when worn you never see the inside.  So unless you are holding it, you'll never know.

 If one wants to get better at anything, it helps to be honest, reflect on the process both good and bad and continue to make adjustments that improve the results.  Sometimes you just have to accept "good enough", but that should only happen after effort is made to improve.  There is a law of diminishing returns.  You have to determine if it is worth the effort.  It is personal.

There are many who find the obsession over wavy stitching silly.  That is their right.  For some of us here it is a quest, a journey fraught with disappointment and blisters.  Lots of ways to bind leather together.  But when you see really good hand stitching you go "wow".   Wow is worth striving for.

[superpacker]

Such helpful and insightful comments. To clarify, I'm not using a groover, I did learn a while a go that that deep channel does force the stitching to lay straight (not always a bad thing, a channeled stitching is certianly helpful in some instances). I'm gonna try some of the suggestions regarding the "front" on the right side, and see how that works. The other thing I think could be causing this is the hold being too deep an wide on the "front" side, and smaller on the back, and the smaller hole forcing the stitch to "S", whereas the deeper holes allow more "elbow room" for the stitch to lay straight. Going to try and just mark the holes with a pricking iron, as opposed to punching them all the way with a chisel, then poke holes by hand with a awl - I think smaller tighter holes will make a difference. I'll makes some observations over the course of this week and possibly the next, and try and report back what I've learned. Thank you!

[charon]

I still have this issue all the time and also complained about it in my post about the Bifold wallet I made. I still have no good solution for this and even doing the cast doesn't fix the problem in a quality that is acceptable for me. However, what I learned is the following: you can influence what your "front" is by switching you're first hand needle. Let me try to make that a little more clear: 

I always punch my holes (for a wallet) with a 3mm Japanese Diamond Chisel (or whatever you may call them, giving 8.5 SPI), holes pointing down towards me, stitching towards me and I always use .6 Tiger thread for my wallets. Now when stitching my card pockets to the divider, I want the zig zag to be on the right side of my clamped piece. So I start with the left hand needle, right hand needle comes underneath, goes into the bottom of the hole and gets pulled tight with no knot. The result is that the right side gets the nice zig zag, the left side is basically a straight line of stitches. When I sew my divider to the back piece, I want the zig zag to be on the left side of my clamped piece, which is the outside of the wallet. So what I do is I start with my right hand needle going in, left needle comes underneath, gets into the bottom of the hole and gets pulled tight with no knot or cast. The result is a zig zag look on the left side and a straight line on the right side. Doing a cast does - at least in my cases where I stitch 4 layers of .3mm leather together always lead to one side being nice and the other one being sloppy and wonky.

If there are any suggestions on how to fix that I'll take them. In the meantime I live with one side being a straight line.  

Edit: When starting with the left hand needle I pull the left side up and the right side down when pulling the thread. You have to switch that also when starting with the right hand so the right hand goes up and the left hand pulls down.

Edited April 9, 2018 by charon
correction

[Tugadude]

One thing left out of the discussion is tension.  Good stitching requires consistent tension on the thread.  I've seen otherwise decent stitching ruined because some stitches were overly tight, some too loose.  

On firm leather you can really snug the thread up tight without issue.  On softer, more pliable leather, you have to be careful not to overdo it.

BTW, many don't pull up and down on their thread yet still get a great result.  Not saying either way is correct.  If it helps your stitching, carry on!

[bikermutt07]

15 hours ago, Tugadude said:

Not trying to be disagreeable, but on many items front and back are somewhat nebulous terms.  On a wallet, for example, is the outside the front?  Shouldn't inside and outside look as similar as possible?  Using the logic that the back is the back means one or the other is going to suffer.  So if you are wanting a slant, you should really try to make both front and back resemble a zig-zag.  One exception might be a belt because when worn you never see the inside.  So unless you are holding it, you'll never know.

 If one wants to get better at anything, it helps to be honest, reflect on the process both good and bad and continue to make adjustments that improve the results.  Sometimes you just have to accept "good enough", but that should only happen after effort is made to improve.  There is a law of diminishing returns.  You have to determine if it is worth the effort.  It is personal.

There are many who find the obsession over wavy stitching silly.  That is their right.  For some of us here it is a quest, a journey fraught with disappointment and blisters.  Lots of ways to bind leather together.  But when you see really good hand stitching you go "wow".   Wow is worth striving for.

I will take this to heart, Tuga. For now, (as in my current comfort\skill level) I will continue as I have been doing recently. It's not like I'm getting 200 a wallet and making my living. I'm just a hobbyist. When I feel really comfortable with my current process, I may try and expand. 

[Tugadude]

That's what it is all about, doing your best.  I'm a hobbyist too but love the craft enough to study it and reach for higher levels of skill.  I respect your passion too Mutt.

[charon]

Good point Tugadude, I'll try pulling straight next time. I change the way I stitch all the time since I only started a few months ago and just like you I always strive for improvement in everything I do. A day I learned or improved something is a good day.

[bikermutt07]

1 hour ago, charon said:

Good point Tugadude, I'll try pulling straight next time. I change the way I stitch all the time since I only started a few months ago and just like you I always strive for improvement in everything I do. A day I learned or improved something is a good day.

I usually pull straight and with a firm pull. Not too firm, but don't limp wrist it either. I found when working with pull up leathers I had to back off of my tension some. Otherwise the thread would just sink down into the holes.

On the tension topic, how hard do you guys pull against a stiff veg tan (for instance)? My tension level is maybe a tad more than I would pull my shoestrings. I guess that is how I would compare it....

[Outfitr]

I just posted this on a different thread... no pun intended:

I've watched Armitage youtubes and stitch exactly how he shows but alway get a very pronounced zig zag on the back and a less pronounced almost straight on the front.....and, I'm over it! I guess that' just the way it's going to be. It's neat I can live with it. I used to use a drill press but have switched to chisels to mark the front and an awl to poke through and it looks whole lot neater. I just don' get a real pronounced zig zag on the front.

[niakulah]

40 minutes ago, Outfitr said:

I just posted this on a different thread... no pun intended:

I've watched Armitage youtubes and stitch exactly how he shows but alway get a very pronounced zig zag on the back and a less pronounced almost straight on the front.....and, I'm over it! I guess that' just the way it's going to be. It's neat I can live with it. I used to use a drill press but have switched to chisels to mark the front and an awl to poke through and it looks whole lot neater. I just don' get a real pronounced zig zag on the front.

As you can see from my previous post, I can barely string together 2 coherent sentences.

Now if this bumbling idiot can do it after watching Nigel Armitage's Vimeo channel, you can too.

 

I hope I don't sound like I'm advertising his paid channel. I'm just a very happy customer.

[KingsCountyLeather]

On 9/4/2018 at 2:46 AM, bikermutt07 said:

I was having the same problem for a long time. Then I watched Nigel's review of the Wuta irons. He stitches a lot of rows on this video without explaining in terms of right priority yada yada yada. I always found that terminology confusing.

What I discovered in that video was that I was basically causing my stitches to be backwards.

Let me explain. Earlier on I had watched Ian's video about casting a loop to make the back more slanted. Somewhere along the way I got confused with that technique. I was actually causing my front side of my stitch to the top of the hole after casting underneath it on the back. This caused a zig zag on the back and a straight line on the front.

After watching Nigel's review of the Wuta irons, here is what I do.

Pick the front. It doesn't matter which direction you are stitching. Make the front needle go to the bottom of the hole. Make the back needle go to the top of the hole. Simple. 

The front will zig zag and the back will be straight. But, as I see it, the back is the back. 

Actually... I think you are right!  Ive tried and tried to get my stitches looking good on both sides. I mean hours and hours of pieces of leather all over the floor even confusing myself with which way did I do this piece and which way did I do that piece? In the end it is as simple as what you just said. But... different types of leather and different thickness of leather require you to tighten or loosen the pull on the thread. The back of the stitch will slant for you if you are consistent with the pull up at the back and down on the front.

Up until now anyway, the cast at the back doesn’t work for me. It causes the stitch to sit on top of the leather instead of pulling into the middle of the hole. But I will figure it out yet!

Have a look at this guys stitching? Amazing!

https://www.instagram.com/simaprague

 

[niakulah]

10 hours ago, niakulah said:

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by niakulah
deleted

[Dangerous Beans]

On 07/04/2018 at 9:52 PM, superpacker said:

I know the default recommendation on this forum is to consult Nigel's saddle stitch tutorial video. This is understandable as it's concise and easy to follow - I've used all of his suggestions, and get nice clean rows of stitching - my problem is that it is only the backside of the item that the signature "S" pattern will appear, whereas on the front,  just get essentially straight stitches. I would prefer those S's to be on the front side. I'm following his instructions to the "T" and can't figure out what is amiss. I will either use diamond chisels and punch all the way through or use the chisel as a pricking iron and then punch the holes with an awl. Either way doesn't seem to make a difference. Like I said, I'm getting nice stitching either way, but the back looks better than the front. Any ideas?

For reference, I'm frequently using .6 Tiger thread. the front piece of the item is on my left side, with stitch holes slanted towards me and im stitching towards me. 

Drop me an email,
Just to cover the obvious, you are putting the piece in the clam, face side to the left. are you left handed?
What irons are you using? and which hand is your priority? which needle first.
Also, are you stitching towards you.
Getting the back to look good is not that hard.
He has to do with the thickness of leather, the thread size and if there is enough space for the thread to even out.
I am not pushing you towards my vimeo channel, I am happy to help if you drop me an email but all of this is covered in detail on the channel.
There is a science to stitching as you are in essences trying to get two object to occupy the same space at the same time.
That is not possible and for many years the industry has ignored the back, that does not need to be so.
Understanding leather weight, thread size, stitching style, casting and double pricking will all help.
The short version, it is not simple and takes practice.

To add to BM's comment on tension, your tension should be sufficient so you see the thread sink to the level of the surface of the leather.
If you are using a static clam as you see me do in many of my videos, you are looking down on the edge of the item you are stitching, as you apply tension, you should see both threads sink in., as soon as it disappears from view, stop.

That is your tension, softer leather will require less, firmer leather, more, but if you aim for this, you will achieve the same results without creating loose stitches or deadmen and will not need to learn tension poundage for each type of leather.

I am on here infrequently, if it is going wrong for you or you simply do not get it, drop me an email. nigel@armitageleather.com I'm happy to help.

Nige

 

[bikermutt07]

3 hours ago, Dangerous Beans said:

Drop me an email,
Just to cover the obvious, you are putting the piece in the clam, face side to the left. are you left handed?
What irons are you using? and which hand is your priority? which needle first.
Also, are you stitching towards you.
Getting the back to look good is not that hard.
He has to do with the thickness of leather, the thread size and if there is enough space for the thread to even out.
I am not pushing you towards my vimeo channel, I am happy to help if you drop me an email but all of this is covered in detail on the channel.
There is a science to stitching as you are in essences trying to get two object to occupy the same space at the same time.
That is not possible and for many years the industry has ignored the back, that does not need to be so.
Understanding leather weight, thread size, stitching style, casting and double pricking will all help.
The short version, it is not simple and takes practice.

To add to BM's comment on tension, your tension should be sufficient so you see the thread sink to the level of the surface of the leather.
If you are using a static clam as you see me do in many of my videos, you are looking down on the edge of the item you are stitching, as you apply tension, you should see both threads sink in., as soon as it disappears from view, stop.

That is your tension, softer leather will require less, firmer leather, more, but if you aim for this, you will achieve the same results without creating loose stitches or deadmen and will not need to learn tension poundage for each type of leather.

I am on here infrequently, if it is going wrong for you or you simply do not get it, drop me an email. nigel@armitageleather.com I'm happy to help.

Nige

 

Thanks for the tip on tension. That will help in the future.