Needed a list of recommended second hand leather sewing machines

[chrisash]

I have read I think all of Wiz excellent items on sewing machines, but as a newbie still lost about  a sub £750 say $1000 US leather sewing machine for say 2 x 3mm veg tan. I under stand servo and walking feet etc but with such a wide range of domestic and industrial machines its hard search 

The secondhand prices also seem very high with some models having a significant price difference if they include leather in their description

Just looking for low cost hobbie machine which will get very little use, but nice to have 

[DrmCa]

2-3mm total or each layer and how many layers?

[Wizcrafts]

Any walking foot machine I've seen, read about or watched videos of can sew 2 layers of 3mm (~1/8") leather. Most modern compound feed machines can sew up to 3/8", or about 10mm. Look into a used Juki DNU-1541, or better yet, a LU-1508NS (inches) or LU-1509NS (metric). These machines are expensive when new.

Another good source of used but functioning walking foot machines are upholstery shops. That is usually the only type of machine they use to sew furniture covers. Old ones will be rode hard and put up wet, but usually keep going like EverReady batteries.

IHTH

[chrisash]

Thanks Wiz

I will look them up

I do notice that many of the machines look like rebadged Chinese machines with a few thousand applied to the price, It does make you think how bad as the chinese models as they seem to have all the bells and whistles but only a few hundred dollars, may not be life long machines but then neither are some second hand ones

 

[Matt S]

Chris, I've found a lot of UK dealers tend to put telephone number prices on their new Chinese machines. Perhaps it's the falling value of the pound; perhaps it's the limited competition; perhaps it's the limited market. All I know is they want more £ for a machine like a Consew 227 than it would cost me to import a 441 clone from a reputable dealer abroad, including shipping, VAT and duty. One of the few UK dealers I've found to stock 205 and 441 clones wanted £2800 and £3800 respectively... plus VAT at 20%. That's twice what it would cost me to import them from Toledo or Germany. The German Hightex dealer is advertising 441s for £1700-odd on eBay right now, which I suppose includes VAT.

Used, quality machines seem to be priced according to their cosmetic appearance and are much better VFM. Some great deals available if you buy from a factory or private individual, though the risk is all on your head.

What sort of machine are you looking for? (Perhaps I should better ask what work you want it to do.) Flat-beds are far more available than cylinder-beds or post-beds, and priced lower. If you can live without certain sexy features (clean paint, walking foot, reverse feature) and can be patient and flexible there are bargains to be found. My first leather-sewing machine is/was an Adler 67. Ugly condition and needle-feed only but I got for under £200 including table and clutch motor. Works great and makes a beautiful stitch. It's been superceded by a modern Chinese walking-foot upholstery-weight machine and I'm trying to talk myself into parting with it but I know I won't get the £ it's worth, so it stays under the bench.

[chrisash]

Hi Matt

I fully understand, its as you state

Someone is making a lot of markup on sewing machines, but admittedly they are probably very slow moving from stock, but just look at these chinese clones on Alibaba

https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=leather+industrial+sewing+machine 

One that court my eye is https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Computerized-Heavy-Duty-Top-Bottom-Feed_60708773885.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.130.635a3677vXIjE5

Trouble is when it goes wrong where do you get them repaired or are they actual exact clones and can use mainline spares etc, you just don't know, but if they are making them at that price then the big names cant cost them much more to buy and then the hefty markup

But if they last a few years then the savings may be worth while, but a big gamble all the same

Back to me

Happy to continue hand stitching and learning slowly, with no need for a machine at present, but just curious about pricing especially when you see the old fashioned cowboy hand machine at very high prices. Still I will save up and buy a couple of stamps, bit cheaper

[Constabulary]

I once decided to use vintage sewing machines only (for different reasons) and at one point I even narrowed it down to Singer only - when ever possible. It is amazing how many parts for certain Singer machines are still available and when you have an open eye and watch / compare the model range you will figure that many spare parts within the Singer model range are interchangeable. Yes it it time consuming looking up all that - but it is very interesting also. A lot of spare parts come from China nowadays and quality varies but since the Chinese and Japanese co. have cloned many older Singer machines some parts will be in production almost for ever I think (f.i. parts for the Singer 111 range). Even some German brands like DURKOPP (not Durkopp Adler) or CLAES have cloned the older Singer models and the parts are interchangeable. F.i. Durkopp 239, 227, 245, 241 and the like is using the same tension unit and hook saddle as the 111 from Singer - even hooks are interchangeable. A lot of Durkopp machines can even use the 111 type presser feet and vice versa.

Sure - up to date models have a lot of bells and whistles and probably have better sewing capacities (f.i. higher foot lift, larger hook and longer stitch length) question is if you really need these features - and - will you get spare parts for your (sometimes fancy) bells and whistle machine in lets say 10 - 20 years. I know most industrial sewing machines are not made for the "common private user" or small businesses or just "One Man Shows" (or the like) but a lot of old / written off machines sooner or later end up on the private market for what ever reason. And I´m sure it will be a point where no one knows what factory certain machines came from. Because some dealer may buy just larger stocks of certain machines put their name sticker on them but are probably not able to supply parts in 5 -10 years because the dealer or even manufacturer went out of business... You never know. I recall a user who wanted to buy feet for an older Artisan Model machine and he had no luck (I do not recall the model - was and odd name) since they no longer support the model. But that even happens to known brands too - like the Pfaff 45 ECO - I just recently have learned that. I think FERDCO is a good sample too. The name still exists but I´m sure the current "name owner" does not supply parts for the early machines - or even know know them "by heart". Not sure if LUBERTO still is in business or if you can find parts for their machines. Yes it´s probably like comparing apples and oranges but the game is pretty much the same. I know Singer also is no longer in business but the name still exists but Singer (or the name owner) no longer supports any industrial sewing machine afaik.

I don´t say my way (vintage Singers) is the right way and I don´t say Chinese machines are bad but a lot depends on the dealers reputation - no matter what machine brand you buy. But it is always a good bet when you buy a machine of a known manufacturer and dealer who well supports his brand and / or a clone machines that is based on a wide spread model - like the Singer 111. I´m sure all the dealer who have banners on the top of this side DO support their own brand machines very well - but there are "other" dealers out there Buying directly from China is a gamble too - some users here did it and they saved money but if you know nothing about sewing machines especially heavier type machines or "bells and whistle" machines better don´t do it. But keep in mid that import charges and VAT will apply and you have to deal with the customs office - you are lucky if it is local!

Buying from private sellers is always risky BUT when you buy a known / wide spread model (or Chinese clone of it) like Singer 111, Pfaff 335, Juki 441 (just to name a few) you will find tons of information like manuals, videos, mechanics manuals or parts lists. I have bought all my machines form private sellers and I have restored them all by my self - thats very satisfying and you learn a lot and I saved a lot of money. However - there are always two sides of a medal - the decision is always up to the buyer.

My 2 cents

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Constabulary

[Matt S]

10 hours ago, chrisash said:

Hi Matt

I fully understand, its as you state

Someone is making a lot of markup on sewing machines, but admittedly they are probably very slow moving from stock, but just look at these chinese clones on Alibaba

https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=leather+industrial+sewing+machine 

One that court my eye is https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Computerized-Heavy-Duty-Top-Bottom-Feed_60708773885.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.130.635a3677vXIjE5

Trouble is when it goes wrong where do you get them repaired or are they actual exact clones and can use mainline spares etc, you just don't know, but if they are making them at that price then the big names cant cost them much more to buy and then the hefty markup

But if they last a few years then the savings may be worth while, but a big gamble all the same

Back to me

Happy to continue hand stitching and learning slowly, with no need for a machine at present, but just curious about pricing especially when you see the old fashioned cowboy hand machine at very high prices. Still I will save up and buy a couple of stamps, bit cheaper

The problem with buying blind off Chinese sites is that you have no guarantee that the machine you receive is going to work, is as described, or is workable at all. What they don't tell you is that these machines don't come setup and many of the parts may need adjustment or outright replacement. You can hire the services of a sewing machine technician to do the setup for you, which is theoretically a part of what you're paying the dealer for. The chap I use is £50 for a basic service, more for a more comprehensive job, and worth the money. As you say parts availability is a lottery and if you get sent a lemon you've got an expensive doorstop and a technician's bill -- and often no right of return like you would if you'd bought from a reputable dealer. Further, you have no guarantee that the machine conforms to basic safety regulations, especially the electrical bits. Having these tested and then upgraded or replaced if they don't (and they probably won't) is going to cost £££. To you as a hobbyist or me as a one-man operation that's our risk but to a business with multiple employees (the main customers of industrial machine dealers) these things are worth a lot of money, and cost a lot of money to sort out.

In defence of those dealers they have a fair few overheads. I have no problem with people getting paid a fair wage for skilled work and a return on their invested capital but 2-3 times what similar businesses sell the same product for?

[dikman]

My understanding is that Alibaba is primarily a source of items for business, and thus bulk sales,  and they generally do not sell individual items. Aliexpress is the Chinese equivalent of ebay and they sell individual items there. Of course, they may be a bit dearer as a result. I've bought a few things (including three servos) via Aliexpress with no problems. As Matt said, though, you will basically be on your own with regards to adjusting, setting up and getting it working. If I decide I need a 441-type machine I probably would get one that way (due to the high cost of them here in Oz - not the sellers fault) BUT I'm prepared to accept that I'd likely have to do a bit of work on it.

I recently bought a Chinese mini-metal lathe (here in Oz, fortunately) and virtually had to rebuild it as everything was loose!! Unfortunately the main controller board has died and, of course, they don't keep spares so I'm about to demand a complete refund. The basic machine is very good, it's just the lack of attention to detail that is the issue, but I tend to think that a sewing machine will probably be built a bit better.

Back to main topic, the usual suspects (Singer 111/211 class, Seiko 8BD-type, Consew etc) should be more than adequate for your needs.

Edited June 26, 2018 by dikman