Just curious about western holsters in the old days

[chuck123wapati]

Here ya go folks this is my great granddaddy Isaac Montgomery he homesteaded here in Wyoming from Ireland back when the state wasn't even a state lol. What is important to know is this is a staged picture and very common of the time those guns and the costume as well probably weren't his as was also common in the day. You can see the bullets in the belt don't match the weapons. Back then photographers would go to community gathering, barn dances and such and set up their props, they would bring costumes as well as firearms for the people to wear and take their pictures with. I am lucky enough to have found other peoples pictures with the same set at the museum  where he lived, it was taken around the turn of the century, 1900,. He was every bit the true west cowboy he started out by moving a herd of cattle from Illinois to California, yes not all cattle were herded from Texas then some how found Slater WY on his way back. lol.  and raised Percheron Horses as well as cattle, and carried mail to and from Slater Wy. to Hanns peak colo. By horse or snowshoes  depending on the weather, about 30 miles. His ranch still exists today in fact, He didn't wear a pistol and he didn't dress like that in real everyday life. As well if you ever peruse old photos in museums you will see most folks didn't carry and women back then didn't wear dresses that show their boobs, all that is tv! 

I will add those are real weapons and clothing of the day as well as indian items and I'm sure my granddaddy wore clothing similar to work or carry the mail but not on a daily basis the gloves and chaps for instance were winter gear. I guess my point is we really cant judge how people acted or what life was really like just by looking at a few pictures especially in books or articles as they cherry pick what will sell the book and it may not be correct as this photo shows a stereo typical idea but not really who the man was. Don't you wish you could make out the tooling on those chaps lol.

Edited January 5, 2020 by chuck123wapati
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[Frodo]

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[480volt]

19 hours ago, fredk said:

1. a lot of men going west after 1865 carried their arms from the War between the States, aka the Civil War. These were mostly flintlock rifles and basic revolvers of ball & powder loading.

I am certainly no expert on Civil War weapons, but the vast majority of long guns used by both sides were rifled, muzzle-loading and fired by percussion cap. There were also rifles and carbines by Spencer and Henry that fired brass (or copper) cased cartridges from a magazine. Given the nature of the conflict, soldiers frequently brought their own weapons, so it is conceivable that some brought great-grandpa’s flintlock to duty, but these were weapons of that “other “ civil war we fought in the late 1770s.

[dikman]

I agree with Chuck, cap and ball revolvers can be very accurate, the limiting factor usually being the user. Hickok used .36 cal Colt Navy pistols and was considered deadly with them.

[Samalan]

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[TexasJack]

Rifles had moved from flintlock to caps by the Texas Revolution.  (The Mexicans were still using surplus British flintlocks at the time).

Civil War revolvers were quite accurate - in fact no different than modern pistols.

Will Ghormley was mentioned.  If you haven't seen his stuff before, look up his web site or his postings on Leatherworker.  He's done a lot of holsters for Hollywood and has posted a lot of helpful stuff for us amateurs.

Hollywood uses stuff that looks cool, but frequently doesn't match equipment to the right era.  For example, there's a movie, Man from the Alamo, where everyone is shooting Colt SAAs (from 1872+) in a fight that took place in 1836.  It would be like seeing jet fighters in WW1.

[Lobo]

Interesting resources on this subject include the mail order catalogs of the 1880's and 1890's (Sears Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward, Abercrombie & Fitch, and others). All types of the commonly available revolvers and holsters were offered and displayed in the catalogs.

While those living in or near the larger communities may have had access to saddlery and harness shops offering belts and holsters, most of the folks residing in the more rural and isolated areas relied on catalog orders for many things. Clothing, shoes, household goods, veterinary supplies, stoves for heating and cooking, firearms, ammunition, just about anything imaginable (Sears even offered houses, all the pieces cut and ready to assemble with windows, doors, and everything else required, delivered in crates by train to the nearest depot). Some of these retailers also operated catalog order and delivery offices in many communities, allowing local people to place and receive orders conveniently.

For those interested in offering period-correct holster designs I would suggest a Google search for the old mail order catalogs of the latter 19th and early 20th Centuries. Some are reproduced in pdf-format and individual pages can be run off with your computer and printer. One thing I am sure of is that you will not see anything like the gear portrayed in western movies and TV shows of the 1940's through 1970's.

[malabar]

On 1/4/2020 at 5:18 PM, fredk said:

1. a lot of men going west after 1865 carried their arms from the War between the States, aka the Civil War. These were mostly flintlock rifles and basic revolvers of ball & powder loading. If they had holsters for the pistols during the war they kept them.

2. In the early movies very many of the 'cow boys' were actual working drovers and used their own equipment, bought during the 1890s and later 1880s. The main makers of the leatherwork for the early movies were the same people supplying those drovers in the 1880s - 1890s. They continued to make for the films and embelleshed their work for the 'stars'. There is a direct lineage to the leatherwork.

3. Contrary to the movies, a ball & powder pistol is not accurate. You can hit a barndoor at 30 paces. You need to be only about 10 feet from a man to hit him. A rifle is of more use. On cattle drives drovers carried rifles and the chuck wagon carried the pistols in case of need, as well as extra rifles and ammunition

4. Each region had variations of holster work which could identify where the wearer was from or where he bought it.

5. Wearing pistols with butts forward is not necessarily 'cross-draw' but it could be what was called 'the troopers twist'. J.B. Hickok wore two 1860s butt forward but drew by 'troopers twist' . If you have a pistol handy, try it. Butt forward. Use your hand on the side you wear the pistol. turn your hand palm outwards, grip the pistol, draw and turn it as it passes your belly, to present and fire.  I've timed it and drawing one or two pistols this way is actually faster than 'cross-drawing'

 

"These were mostly flintlock rifles..."

You mean percussion rifles, not flintlocks. 

"...a ball & powder pistol is not accurate." 

Cap and ball pistols are actually quite accurate. The rifles, of course, are more accurate, because the pistols were firing round balls while the rifles were firing conical bullets.  But at handgun ranges (50 feet or less) they were accurate enough and quite lethal. 

tk

Edited April 10, 2020 by malabar

[1961Mike]

On 1/4/2020 at 3:58 AM, chrisash said:

Just wondered how much change there was between the 1800's western holsters for the Mr Average and the holsters of the film industry

For instance there is a big difference between the latter John Wayne holsters and the average cowboy holsters seen in the films and probably safe to assume the 1800's were far cheaper and more basic designs

Also never understood that for the slightly longer time to draw a pistol for the average guy, they did not copy the covered in cavalry holsters that protected the gun far better , and if ok for calvary who probably saw more action, then why not mr average

It would appear that gunfights portrayed in films were a very rare occurrence, with few noted in history so micro second speed would really be called upon

Hi, the cavalry holsters had the flap to keep the cylinder and percussion caps covered.  Brass cartridges weren't common in the Civil War, and most handguns were still percussion.  To state that gunflights portrayed in films were very rare is an understatement.  Most shooters seemed to have the gun out and pointed your way when they asked for your money, or to surrender. 

Hope this helps.

[Professor]

On 1/4/2020 at 5:18 PM, fredk said:

3. Contrary to the movies, a ball & powder pistol is not accurate. You can hit a barndoor at 30 paces. You need to be only about 10 feet from a man to hit him. A rifle is of more use. On cattle drives drovers carried rifles and the chuck wagon carried the pistols in case of need, as well as extra rifles and ammunition

The secret to superior accuracy with a C&B revolver is care in loading.

If a cast round ball is used insert the ball with the sprue mark up. That way the ball doesn't spin off balance when fired.

A carefully loaded round ball will usually be more accurate than a conical ball. I have no problem keeping all my rounds of .36 in the space of a playing card at 50 feet.

I did have to widen the rear notch of the hammer to one side to zero it and file the front bead down a bit for proper elevation.

These guns shoot best with a full charge of powder. Light loads will result in the ball being seated too deep in the chamber.

Many pre cap and ball muskets were converted to cap locks before and during the Civil War.

Since there were more arms than men to carry them after the war the Government sold off the surplus guns dirt cheap.

Soldiers when mustered out could purchase the musket they had been issued along with paper cartridge boxes, cap pouches , etc.

Lever action Henry rifles were usually private purchased and kept by those who had carried them. At least one Calvary company were armed with the Henry to great effect. It many have been Custer's Civil War outfit. The later 7th Calvary carried the Spencer carbine but these were replaced by the trapdoor Springfield just before the Little Bighorn fight.